S: …physical world need not necessarily mean things-in-themselves, but they aren’t purely conceptual ideas either.
D: What's a pure conceptual idea? Ideas come from somewhere, they originate in complex processes very much intertwined with the physical world, designed to reflect it to some degree. And at the same time our ideas about the physical world reflect the conceptual processing in place.
Hehehee… As usual, with all who have achieved excellence in mastering philosophical discourses, the discussion goes off track and in circles. You ARE acknowledging above the
intertwining of TWO DIFFERENT things, but somehow are reluctant to wipe out that difference and go what… unconscious? Its those DIFFERENCES that mean consciousness, otherwise there is no “the Infinite” to talk about either.
This way the sensation of pain is as defining as any contemplation on suffering.
It may be
as defining to you, but yet they are NOT one and same thing, by definition if you like. Are they?
Although some people entertain the notion they have more control over the contemplation.
Sure, just as you seem to entertain the “notion” that you have said something more meaningful than anybody else in this thread… well… tell me you don’t? In which case... quoting Kevin... I can safely ignore you ;)
To me all thinking or conceptualizing is like a crystallization, a feed-back network of signals. What you call "sensual experiences" perhaps we could call then simple straight-forward conceptualizations. But the more complex experiences like "there's the world" or "this is me" are just more intricate, interwoven, more granular processing of the same.
Your "to me” doesn’t really matter or hold any meaning really, for that too is more of… “a feed-back network of signals”, so our different stance does not hold meaningful comparison, for it is but just
that, or ultimately simply
Is. Isn’t it?
Ultimately, milk may be milk, by definition, but cheese is not milk, and milk is not cheese, again by definition, and so should be the Infinite… by definition perhaps?
David: Although the Infinite is not any particular "thing", neither is it separate or distinct from the things of this world in any way. As an analogy, consider a lake of pure distilled water, which is comprised solely of water molecules. It is easy to see that a particular water molecule within the lake and the lake itself are two completely different things. And yet at the same time, there is no "lake" over and above the water molecules which form its body. The sum total of the water molecules is the lake.
Are you quoting David to justify you stand? If that explanation were any simpler than yours, we would have had enlightened beings raining like cats and dogs by now.
Although the Infinite is not any particular "thing", neither is it separate or distinct from the things of this world in any way.
If he says so… but I think we are imagining “the infinite” for one reason only; we have a slave mentality and can never imagine being actually free of this mentality, and keep creating God like substitutes to satisfy our own ego, and pretend, or lie to ourselves, that I have found the answer to the mother of all questions, and what a question it is… an egotistically self imagined and self imposed one.
As an analogy, consider a lake of pure distilled water, which is comprised solely of water molecules. It is easy to see that a particular water molecule within the lake and the lake itself are two completely different things. And yet at the same time, there is no "lake" over and above the water molecules which form its body. The sum total of the water molecules is the lake.
No, we can IMAGINE the lake BECAUSE we can experience or say are imagining a boundary to IT by mentally adding up ALL the molecules = the lake, hence it carries the boundary created by that
definition at least, which makes it a THING, by definition again…, so when, how and why does this lake become divine and above all things is the question, especially when it is said that “it” isn’t and “it” is at the same time?
I must be in that "jovial" mood today… ;)
[NB: further dialog on this will have to wait for around, may be, 2 weeks, if thread still alive and interesting]