What is Love? Or did we do this before?

Discussion of the nature of Ultimate Reality and the path to Enlightenment.

Re: What is Love? Or did we do this before?

Postby |read| » Mon May 04, 2009 12:33 pm

I'm flattered, but you really should attribute quotes to their original authors, even if you're a spambot.

Edit: Feel free to delete this post if you delete his/her/its post.
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Re: What is Love? Or did we do this before?

Postby Leyla Shen » Tue May 05, 2009 1:00 am

You know, I had to think on this as a whole for quite some time, and I still couldn't figure it out! :)

DvR wrote:Seriously though, for men loving seems more based on memory, something shared in the past which can even project into the long-term future, like children and other shared activities. It's valuation based on past familiarity, appreciation of what has been and how you regard the events and feelings so far.


Well, if that's love/loving, how is near future/expectation - it's total opposite - falling in love:

Falling in love is more based on the near future, a matter of expectation.


What about the expectation in the "how you regard events and feelings so far"? Makes the distinction a bit meaningless, doesn't it?

In this context, I'd say romantic love - you know, the "falling in love" feeling that makes everything exciting - is a lack of expectation.

[hums] It's because I love you, not because we're far apart; it's because I miss you, parts of you come back to me . . .
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Re: What is Love? Or did we do this before?

Postby Leyla Shen » Tue May 05, 2009 1:13 am

I always thought that falling in love was the result of pheromone exchange. Once that wears off, you either find that you love someone or you do not, that is, reality sets in.


Then it would be prudent, I think, not to call it falling in love, since once the pheromones wear off there's at least a 50/50 chance it ain't love, no?

"Love" is the psychological component you're attaching to a biochemical phenomenon. Why not just say, "Man, my pheremones are going off" in those instances and make no connection to "love" whatsoever?

Silly old git? You can do better than that, your honor.


Yes, well - you can blame the new boyfriend for that. ;)
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Re: What is Love? Or did we do this before?

Postby Diebert van Rhijn » Tue May 05, 2009 3:27 am

Leyla Shen wrote:What about the expectation in the "how you regard events and feelings so far"?

Do you mean expectation in the sense of some sort of evaluation, "living up to expectations so far"? You're then right of course but it doesn't change my attempt to differentiate between pondering the past and the immediate future.

In this context, I'd say romantic love - you know, the "falling in love" feeling that makes everything exciting - is a lack of expectation.

That's why I wrote "for men". Don't get me started on how love and falling in love works for women! It looks quite similar at the surface but it's brought about by fundamentally opposing processes. You're correct about the lack of expectation in romantic love. Although with the other "love" many expectations for the future start playing a role.
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Re: What is Love? Or did we do this before?

Postby brokenhead » Wed May 06, 2009 9:08 am

Leyla Shen wrote:Then it would be prudent, I think, not to call it falling in love, since once the pheromones wear off there's at least a 50/50 chance it ain't love, no?
Well, no. That was the point of my post, Leyla.

Pheromones are biochemicals produced by one organism and become attached to the corresponding pheromone receptors in another. These receptors are unique to the organism. A male moth is not affected by the sex pheromones produced by a female ant, for example.

If love is merely a biochemical process triggered by the absorption of a pheromone, then how could I be affected when I am over two thousand mile away from her and I have not seen her in 25 years?

"Love" is the psychological component you're attaching to a biochemical phenomenon. Why not just say, "Man, my pheromones are going off" in those instances and make no connection to "love" whatsoever?

See above.

Yes, well - you can blame the new boyfriend for that. ;)

Blame him? I'm ready to nominate him for canonization.
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Re: What is Love? Or did we do this before?

Postby Talking Ass » Thu May 07, 2009 2:25 am

brokenhead wrote:A male moth is not affected by the sex pheromones produced by a female ant, for example.


A small correction---and I know a thing or two about both ants and moths since there is an abundance of both in my stall, along with spiders, flies, beetles, lizards, mice, rats, weasels, opossum, racoons, swollows, owls, jackdaws, and the common cat. Really, I have an 'inside angle' on the animal kingdom and, if you have doubts or questions, please feel free to PM me. There are things, a great many things, the Nature Channel is NOT telling you.

But back to the issue: there are some female ants that simply go nuts when certain moths come fluttering around. What keeps the world from noticing is a certain difference of elevation, really. If ants and moths existed on the same 'plane of reality', believe me, Nature would be held accountable.
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Re: What is Love? Or did we do this before?

Postby Leyla Shen » Thu May 07, 2009 3:14 am

LS: Then it would be prudent, I think, not to call it falling in love, since once the pheromones wear off there's at least a 50/50 chance it ain't love, no?

b: Well, no. That was the point of my post, Leyla.


Wait, “no” what? No it wouldn’t be prudent not to associate pheromones (to be clear, biochemical stimulants triggering fixed responses) with falling in love and love? (How about with one and not the other?)

But that doesn’t make sense, because you then present the same quandary; viz “how can I be affected 2,000 miles away.”

I’m trying, desperately, to discover what distinction – or, as the case most definitely may be, association – you make/made between these two different things (stages of fixed biochemical response?) of “falling in love” and “love” and how you think/thought they might be mutually and associatively related to chemically triggered, fixed responses – ya know, to pheromones?

Maybe you ought to just accept that if something doesn’t make sense, it doesn’t make sense?

Blame him? I'm ready to nominate him for canonization.


Then we have finally found something we can agree on.

Our relationship is based on mutual worship, the key to “unconditional love.” As a man of God, you should understand that much by now, brokenhead.

Can you imagine it – imposing all sorts of conditions on your relationship with Him, like expecting Him to cook your dinner; or, when He said, “I have made you what you are, but all the bad bits you have to settle yourself by exorcising your relationship with the devil from your soul; 50 Our Fathers and 25 Hail Marys, my boy!” and then you said, “Listen here, arsehole, you’re supposed to be omnipotent so it’s your fault – you MADE me and HIM do it! Penance!? What fucking penance, ha!”?

The question for you here is; how does sex factor into the equation?

God’s love, my dear, is as totally one-sided and selfish as Woman’s. Perhaps that’s why you men get so confused about it, and give it so much power over you.
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Re: What is Love? Or did we do this before?

Postby brokenhead » Thu May 07, 2009 4:26 am

Leyla Shen wrote:Wait, “no” what? No it wouldn't’t be prudent not to associate pheromones (to be clear, biochemical stimulants triggering fixed responses) with falling in love and love? (How about with one and not the other?)

I am not sure what you are failing to grasp. Many people believe that love and attraction, in all of their manifestations, are caused by pheromone production and reception. My VERY SIMPLE point is that if that were true, how could I be affected by a biochemical which is being produced 2,400 mile away?

Maybe you ought to just accept that if something doesn’t make sense, it doesn’t make sense?

Are you by any slim chance actually agreeing with me that pheromones cannot be the sole explanation of the phenomena of falling in love with and feeling love for another person?

I do believe they play a role. Do you agree with that? A simple yes or no would suffice.

Can you imagine it – imposing all sorts of conditions on your relationship with Him, like expecting Him to cook your dinner; or, when He said, “I have made you what you are, but all the bad bits you have to settle yourself by exorcising your relationship with the devil from your soul; 50 Our Fathers and 25 Hail Marys, my boy!” and then you said, “Listen here, arsehole, you’re supposed to be omnipotent so it’s your fault – you MADE me and HIM do it!* Penance!? What fucking penance, ha!”?

But this is a child's concept of what God must be. Can you not develop an adult view?

* Kinda like Tom Waits' song Jesus Gonna Be Here:


"...Well I've been faithful
And I've been so good
Except for drinking
But he new that I would..."


The question for you here is; how does sex factor into the equation?

God’s love, my dear, is as totally one-sided and selfish as Woman’s. Perhaps that’s why you men get so confused about it, and give it so much power over you.

Sex isn't factoring in... yet. But I doubt I would be relocating if I didn't expect it to. And it did figure in at one time with this person. I also doubt I would be relocating if it was so fucking memorable.

And make no mistake, women give men far more power over them than vice versa. And you know that is true.
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Re: What is Love? Or did we do this before?

Postby Shahrazad » Thu May 07, 2009 11:48 pm

broken,

I don't know about pheromones. I'm pretty sure love is produced by chemicals that can work at any distance. An example of these chemicals is phenylethylamine, which releases dopamine, which stimulates the production of oxytocin. These substances work like drugs. They give you a high and are very addictive. But most of our bodies get used to (build a tolerance to) these drugs after several years elapse. Then being in love becomes attachment.

Oh and btw, the chemicals can also be obtained in other ways besides romantic relationships. But I'm sure you're not interested.
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Re: What is Love? Or did we do this before?

Postby brokenhead » Fri May 08, 2009 12:11 am

Shahrazad wrote:broken,

I don't know about pheromones. I'm pretty sure love is produced by chemicals that can work at any distance. An example of these chemicals is phenylethylamine, which releases dopamine, which stimulates the production of oxytocin. These substances work like drugs. They give you a high and are very addictive. But most of our bodies get used to (build a tolerance to) these drugs after several years elapse. Then being in love becomes attachment.

Oh and btw, the chemicals can also be obtained in other ways besides romantic relationships. But I'm sure you're not interested.

Oh yes I am. Give. You are not talking about the cologne with the armpit pheromone isolate added to it, are you?
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Re: What is Love? Or did we do this before?

Postby Shahrazad » Fri May 08, 2009 12:28 am

Oh yes I am. Give. You are not talking about the cologne with the armpit pheromone isolate added to it, are you?

No. You can eat chocolate. That's my favorite, though I admit that the dose of phenylethylamine produced this way is low. For a love addict, it will not be enough.

You can also do "exciting" activities such as jumping from an airplane. Wear a parachute, of course.
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Re: What is Love? Or did we do this before?

Postby brokenhead » Sun May 10, 2009 2:46 am

Shahrazad wrote:You can also do "exciting" activities such as jumping from an airplane. Wear a parachute, of course.
Being the intrepid soul that I am, I wear a parachute while I am just eating chocolate.
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Re: What is Love? Or did we do this before?

Postby Leyla Shen » Mon May 11, 2009 7:56 am

Are you by any slim chance actually agreeing with me that pheromones cannot be the sole explanation of the phenomena of falling in love with and feeling love for another person?


Pay attention. I’m saying that the two should be treated as distinct things, and having a go at you for continuing to make something of the connection as if you’ve done something meaningful—or maybe as if to say how clever you are for even having understood the distinction?

I mean, seriously, look at the philosophical implications you’ve dug up with topic of chocolate, for instance.

Can you not develop an adult view?


What, and like you, elevate it to the level of ineffably mysterious and omnipotent fairy?

I think you should jump on the nearest ass and hightail it outta here (with a parachute, of course, you dare devil, you).

~

Is your love for and dedication to God equivalent to the satisfaction you derive from eating chocolate or jumping out of a plane, with or without a parachute?

Do you have to be so fucking mediocre ALL the time?
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Re: What is Love? Or did we do this before?

Postby Leyla Shen » Mon May 11, 2009 8:09 am

And this one deserves a whole post of its own:

And make no mistake, women give men far more power over them than vice versa. And you know that is true.


Wait, did I make that demand or did you?

For one thing, though I'm convinced you're a blowover, a man has a physical power far superior, generally speaking, to a woman's.
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Re: What is Love? Or did we do this before?

Postby brokenhead » Mon May 11, 2009 9:45 am

Leyla Shen wrote:For one thing, though I'm convinced you're a blowover, a man has a physical power far superior, generally speaking, to a woman's
I could knock you silly, Shen.
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Re: What is Love? Or did we do this before?

Postby Leyla Shen » Sat May 23, 2009 5:20 pm

O-oo, I'm scared now!

~

"That's what love is. It's one's own ego that one loves in love, one's own ego made real on the imaginary level"—Jacques Lacan
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Re: What is Love? Or did we do this before?

Postby brokenhead » Mon May 25, 2009 4:23 am

Leyla Shen wrote:O-oo, I'm scared now!

~

"That's what love is. It's one's own ego that one loves in love, one's own ego made real on the imaginary level"—Jacques Lacan

And well you should be.

Say, that new BF of yours must be keeping the Turk busy since it took you two weeks to respond and this was all you could come up with.
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Re: What is Love? Or did we do this before?

Postby Carl G » Mon May 25, 2009 5:07 am

How's your love affair going, brokenhead? Are you busy packing for Idaho?
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Re: What is Love? Or did we do this before?

Postby Shahrazad » Mon May 25, 2009 11:57 pm

Carl, do you really want to know the answer to that or are you just trying to be facetious?
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Re: What is Love? Or did we do this before?

Postby Nick Treklis » Tue May 26, 2009 12:18 am

Carl G wrote:How's your love affair going, brokenhead? Are you busy packing for Idaho?


Did they just legalize same sex marriage there or something?
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Re: What is Love? Or did we do this before?

Postby Carl G » Tue May 26, 2009 12:51 am

Shahrazad wrote:Carl, do you really want to know the answer to that or are you just trying to be facetious?

I really want to know.
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Re: What is Love? Or did we do this before?

Postby brokenhead » Wed May 27, 2009 10:11 pm

Nick Treklis wrote:
Carl G wrote:How's your love affair going, brokenhead? Are you busy packing for Idaho?


Did they just legalize same sex marriage there or something?

Yes, we'll be Messers (broken) Potato-Head.
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Re: What is Love? Or did we do this before?

Postby brokenhead » Wed May 27, 2009 10:22 pm

Carl G wrote:
Shahrazad wrote:Carl, do you really want to know the answer to that or are you just trying to be facetious?

I really want to know.

The move is on! I am leaving Monday June 8. It is a little disheartening to to realize I will be able to pack up all my earthly belongings into my '97 Neon, with enough room to spare for that underage runaway I will be picking up just west of Lincoln, Nebraska, where she will be hitching a ride out to Hollywood so she can become a big star someday.
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Re: What is Love? Or did we do this before?

Postby Leyla Shen » Sat Jun 13, 2009 9:36 pm

brokenhead wrote:[...] and this was all you could come up with.


Trust you to snort all over a divine pearl of wisdom!

I may be making a comeback soon - please, hold your breath, though.
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Re: What is Love? Or did we do this before?

Postby brokenhead » Tue Jun 16, 2009 4:00 am

Leyla Shen wrote:
brokenhead wrote:[...] and this was all you could come up with.


Trust you to snort all over a divine pearl of wisdom!

I may be making a comeback soon ...

At which point I shall turn and rend you.
Not that you are familiar with any quotes from scripture.
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