Alex Jacob wrote:"For this reason, just as we were able to correct the flaws in the Hubble space telescope, by computing what was causing the distortion, I think we know enough about what is causing the distortion in the teachings of Jesus to be able to do a good job of making a correction of sorts."
I do see your point, of course, but your 'reverse engineering' may not be accurate, and may not take into consideration certain possibilities that are not possible for you, not entertainable as possibilities. You will therefor reverse engineer him to be a Chinese sage of sorts, with a Zen teaching, and will disregard what may have been the major emphasis of the Jewish Jesus---the social commitment.
"If anyone comes to me and does not hate his father and mother, wife and children, brothers and sisters - yes, even his own life - such a person cannot be my disciple." Luke 14: 26
"Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it." Matthew 7: 13
"Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. For I have come to turn 'a man against his father, a daughter against her mother, a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law', your enemies will be the members of your own household. Those who find their life will lose it, and those who lose their life for my sake will find it." Matthew 10: 34
"Blessed are the solitary and elect, for you will find the Kingdom. For you are from it, and to it you will return." Thomas: 49
"Everyone who has left houses or brothers or sisters or father or mother or children or fields for my sake will receive a hundred times as much and will inherit eternal life." Matthew 19: 29
"Brother will betray brother to death, and a father his child; children will rebel against their parents and have them put to death. Everyone will hate you because of me, but those who stand firm to the end will be saved." Matthew 10: 21
"If the world hates you, keep in mind that it hated me first. If you belonged to the world, it would love you as its own. As it is, you do not belong to the world, but I have chosen you out of the world. That is why the world hates you." John 14: 18
"Whoever has come to understand the world has found only a corpse, and whoever has found a corpse is superior to the world." Thomas: 56
"Whoever finds himself is superior to the world." Thomas: 111
Alex Jacob wrote:Your interpretation seemed so shallow! I see this as having to do with unseen beings who cultivate us, who operate through our own consciousness in indescribable ways.
Alex wrote:(From Anna): "Jesus taught unconditional love, radical forgiveness, and man's reconciliation with the Father through understanding the goodness of God and through the quickening of the spiritual faculty through contact with the Holy Spirit."
Without understanding, all of that is just empty words. It is magical thinking, rather than mystical.
One of the paradoxes of infinity, is that at all times one must be alive. Were this not to be the case then infinity would not be a reality.
If the physical universe is unbounded, then at any time there must exist an infinity of exact replicas of the configuration that is yourself at this precise time and at all times.
Therefore it doesn't matter if you die or not -the whole question of "life after death" becomes irrelevant.
Makes it hard to believe in infinity doesn't it, and quite frankly I don't believe in this sort of parallel infinity - not that I can justify this belief.
the less we can really be certain of very much
but it could be that it is more a description of a factual, holistic, psycho-spiritual 'truth'.
Ryan Rudolph wrote:Alex,
The problem is that you believe in these things for emotional reasons, reality as it is isn’t enough for you, you gotta sugar coat it with all these little spirit friends of yours.
You need to get your mind out of the magical clouds, and into the mundane ordinary.
Furthermore, we cannot prove there are no beings from other dimensions existing, but dude, wake up and smell the coffee: if they exist it is certain they don’t care about you enough to be thinking about you while going about their daily business. I don't know how we can know this for sure -- indeed it is speculation -- but I am sure they don’t care anymore than any other sentient being on this planet. Which isn't a lot, right? So why should you care? Before you get to your song and dance response understand this: your intuition can’t tell you shit… (but mine can) because your intuition includes many unconscious longings and yearnings that you want to be true, regardless of whether they are true or not.
Alex Jacob wrote:My point, or one of them, is that 'certainty' is a very difficult thing to have when it comes to our 'inner world', to our psychology, and to a definitive understanding, within those inner, subjective realms
Better to 'answer' the questions as a crafty lawyer, timidly and rodent-like, which is to say not to answer them at all.
What goes on in our own minds---is that 'unreal'?
But is the whole notion of God, a creator-spirit, or even a 'culture' of advanced beings who instruct or guide or 'cultivate' through unseen means, is it impossible?
What about psychological beings? Dream figures, or the beings that speak to one in a vision? What is that being and where is it taking place?
Are we so absolutely sure exactly and of what precisely we are composed? The only way to definitively say 'no' is to define a pure materialism
They have a God, that is, all that exists, that is there, staring back at you. It is not matter, it is not spirit, it is not consciousness, but the definition is left open.
As I define them, such spiritual beings have a kind of work that they perform within this created world, this platform where conscious life exists. Their whole endeavor is to raise up other beings, other consciousnesses . . .
There are people who are meditators and who have come into contact with 'higher beings' or 'inner guides' in their meditation. What happens there, Ryan? Is that delusional?
Ryan Rudolph wrote:For instance: the latest scientific theories are basically telling us that material/solid matter is pretty much a fiction, meaning that at the most basic level of reality there is only empty space
As I define them, such spiritual beings have a kind of work that they perform within this created world, this platform where conscious life exists. Their whole endeavor is to raise up other beings, other consciousnesses, who can be similarly responsible as they are, and who teach their 'subjects' to do what they do, albeit on other levels. The parable spoke of a 'harvest' after seeds had been sowed. It is not at all so outlandish since this happens in our normal reality anyway. Can I so definitively say 'where I end and where you begin'? Where the human ends and begins? Where consciousness ends and begins?
There are people who are meditators and who have come into contact with 'higher beings' or 'inner guides' in their meditation. What happens there, Ryan? Is that delusional? Psychological? Spiritual? Is it to be cured, encouraged, or reinterpreted? We clearly know how some or even many people speak of such things and who seem off the mark, uncentered, spaced-out, New Age, or what have you. But what about in the best cases? Many creative people, some 'geniuses', describe their 'muse' in terms that you wouldn't like.
It is literally creating and destroying every moment in unfathomable densities, amounts, and speeds.
If you're going to use science as support for your philosophical arguments at least make sure you know what the science is.
Kissaki wrote:The "latest scientific theories," to use your phrase, say that space is constantly creating particle and anti-particle pairs and then annihilating them. This happens at every point in space, and when I say point I mean point densities of 1.6 × 10−35 meters. This is not just a hypothesis or mathematical trickery used for calculation corrections either. Carefully designed empirical experiments actually show that this quantum foam exerts measurable force. Space is actually quite the opposite of empty. It is literally creating and destroying every moment in unfathomable densities, amounts, and speeds.
Ryan I think you're confused between empty space and things being empty of inherent existence. They're not the same thing. Even if there were no empty space at all things would still be empty of inherent existence.
Ryan Rudolph wrote:through empirical investigation one can clearly observe that all appearances of matter are 99% empty space. And then you bring up a second proposition that all things lack inherent existence. However, a third proposition that I could bring up is that all things are empty in their essence.
Now, I believe that proposition 1 and 3 imply the same point, while proposition 2 is pointing to a slightly different thing.
To summarize: All things are dependent on other things for their existence, and a thing cannot arise without its past causes. However, all things are empty in their fundamental essence, which implies that all matter is fundamentally empty too.
There is nothing concrete there.
. . . we don’t know much about what this emptiness is.
Ryan Rudolph wrote:To summarize: All things are dependent on other things for their existence, and a thing cannot arise without its past causes. However, all things are empty in their fundamental essence, which implies that all matter is fundamentally empty too. There is nothing concrete there. The mind that abides in an unknowing state of emptiness creates a sane window to the world, but the world itself is fundamentally empty, like the mind, and that is why life remains mysterious in a certain context because we don’t know much about what this emptiness is.
In what way exactly? You previously said that things are only 99% empty, but now you're saying it's 100%. So there doesn't appear to be any consistency with the argument.
Ryan Rudolph wrote:My point is that empirical evidence at the quantum level basically proves the fallacy of believing in a materialistic mindset
I wouldn't depend on empirical arguments to battle the materialistic mindset if I were you, since empirical arguments are always uncertain. You will find yourself in the middle of a minefield, and wishing you hadn't gone in the direction you did.
Ryan Rudolph wrote:I think we can rely on repeated empirical evidence and be very certain of what we’re observing.
at the quantum level, empirical evidence is telling us that those appearances are a material fiction…and that is just plain odd. Face it - we live in a queer universe, so you might as well stop resisting, and switch teams Kevin
Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 0 guests