Desire & its two approaches

[GrantForEveryone]

From what I've read and through analyzing my own experiences, I've found desire to be the barrier to enlightenment/liberation. The information I've read on dealing with desire seems to fall under two categories:

1. eliminate all desire directly

or:

2. use desire to overcome desire

The second approach seems to be a Tantric one. Does anyone have any insight on these two different approaches? Maybe info online about one or the other?

[voce io]

I haven't known anyone who eliminated desire. Everyone that is still alive desires. You posted this because you desired it so.

[Kellyven]

I am not saying that:

1. Eliminate all desire directly
2. Use desire to overcome desire

is the same as:

1. Be unconsciousness
2. Consciously stop constructing consciousness

but it is very similar. It is like the will to not will.

[GrantForEveryone]

voce io -

I mean desire in an attachment sort of way. Please don't get caught up in language.

Kellyven -

Interesting, I see what you're saying. Is that an idea of your's?

[voce io]

Grant, I mean it in the same way you do. People make the argument saying "I eat when I'm hungry", and they claim to be unattached but they're very wrong. Making any movement is a sign of deep attachment. If a person asks themselves "why" they're eating when they're hungry, the answers that come up are "so I can survive" or "so I don't feel discomfort"...but what is the point of surviving, and what is the point of avoiding discomfort? The point of surviving may be "I like living" or "I'm afraid of dying" or "people will miss me if I stop eating and die". Why do you like living, as death is part of life, and the 'living' you're talking about is really avoidance of death (which is avoidance of life)? Why are you afraid of dying, when it's inevitable anyway? That isn't really living well, it's making your life shit, so what's the point? People are going to end up missing you the day you die, anyway..and for the most part you can't help when that day will come. Everyone has reasons for every action they take, this is an undeniable attribute of movement. What causes anyone to move is preference, and trying to achieve the better...what you want. You can't tell me that making a choice is entirely without desire. If anyone was actually without desire, they'd have no reason to move, and they wouldn't move.

So what are you talking about, now?

[GrantForEveryone]

voce io -

It comes back to language. Do you love your mother? Do you love your girlfriend/wife? Is the feeling you have for them the same? Love is the word used in either case, but they don't mean the same thing. Effective communication requires you to try to understand what I intend when I say "desire", and not automatically attach all possible definitions of the word.

That said, I do think the word "attachment" would better describe what I'm talking about instead of the word "desire". But I don't mean physical attachment. Please try to understand what I must intend when I use the word.

So, it seems to me that attachment is the main barrier to enlightenment/liberation. I'm going to start a new thread about that. I think it's more clear that way.

[voce io]

I was talking all about attachment in my last post, didn't you read it? It isn't a barrier to liberation! Don't prematurely think you have all the answers.

[Kellyven]

If you go over to the "ego" thread, you will see how i worked through the construct of consciousness.

Have you read Wisdom of the Infinite?

Kelly