Drugs and the Spirt

[Amphiaraus]

How profound do you think the psychological effects of psychoactive substances is upon the spirit? I really think that they are neutral and reveal you to yourself, some different parts than others, all relying upon our karma as to whether we will be hurt or healed after unity.

[Dan Rowden]

I strongly suspect you are rationalising.

[Cahoot]

It appears that drugs place attention in any of the three lower realms of existence, or into the conditioned human realm, but that drugs are not relevant to the unconditioned human realm or the other two realms.

But you know what they say about appearances.

[Diebert van Rhijn]

When being serious and attentive, the experiences which at least the entheogens offer (cannabis, mushrooms, MDA, MDMA (extasy), mescal,DMT, salvinorin A, LSD and peyote at least would be considered more or less entheogenic drugs when not mixed with tobacco, alcohol or each other) will be able to show some possibility of being by removing one from the "usual" in terms of perception and cognition. They also can quieten the usual mind which opens the door for potential good insights or deep tranquility but just as easy lets in a flow of pointless imagery and ideas. Confused people will only enhance their confusions and should avoid all drugs.

As Amphiraus said, it can be hurting or healing. Or it opens briefly pathways which one is not yet ready for. But such path even when shown still has to be taken without the drug. It cannot do that for you. And once on the path the drugs would become rather pointless and distracting to keep taking. It's very likely the desire doesn't arise anymore at all to seek such experiences. A truly clear mind is already "higher" than anything one could imagine before it was that clear. This is what makes drug usage so pointless in spiritual terms. How to add anything further at a certain stage?

[Dennis Mahar]

drug or no drug, same shit different day.
an object appears (perception) and an inference is made (meaning).

perception and meaning amounts to a point of consciousness.
a point of consciousness arises out of the previous point of consciousness.

a succession of pointless points.

nothing is healed and nothing is harmed.

its empty and meaningless that its empty and meaningless.

[Kunga]

My own experiences were always spiritually satisifying. I viewed others as beautiful, a sense of peace, unity and beauty prevailed...everything had spiritual meaning and symbolism. My spirit was not harmed but enhanced. I guess I was fortunate, my mind was always seeking spiritual truth. Awareness never left my side during these experiences. This was long ago. Occasionally I will get a natural high from the beauty of life....especially when viewing nature......flowers...trees.....rain....lakes....oceans.....moon...stars...sky........I am in awe...........

[Dennis Mahar]

So, you have mood swings.
Big deal.
form is empty.

Plato declared in his Symposium,
we are shattered selves seeking wholeness.
Wrong story.

[Dan Rowden]

Kunga,

No pics, please. Links only.

[Dennis Mahar]

All human stories are of a conventional nature only.

the stories fit 2 categories.

'the hero's journey',
going from samsara to nirvana.

'a stranger came to town',
going from nirvana to samsara.

not ultimate reality.

[Amphiaraus]

As a kid, I argued the logic of drugs and proper practice, before I ever did any drug I'd read about it for days and picked a set and setting that accomidated it.

Hindus use OPIUM to soothe the heart and even reach the higher planes of consciousness
Rastas use marijuana as a tool to reveal you to yourself and eliminate desire.
John C. Lily used Ketamine to inspire, as the man who put together the serpent and the structure of DNA was on LSD. Mathematicians and the greatest world leaders and the soldiers dying for them (John F Kennedy, Hitler) used amphetamines daily.

There is no negative experience, just negative experienced, and to be enlightened, to me, expects this mindset. And while you might not seek drugs, it is bad karma to deny them if you are strong enough to hang or you could gain something from them, just as vegetarianism is situational.

I've never had an in depth conversation about consciousness with anyone who hasn't
usedhallucinogens. My most recent experience was with an experimental psychedelic know as 2C-E, in a HERO fucking dose, and viewed myself doing the cosmic dance of life as my energy field expanded across the world and interconnected me, then I felt everyones consciousness pick up on my vibes, then panic, then sexualization of the trip, then I watched the whole world try to fit in my life, concentrating my ego to the point of believing I was Jesus,and the whole world was built around me as it got smaller until it became exquisitely complicate in a small area with ultimate euphoria, then a slow degradation of this world due to mental pollution to the point that faces in the hospital I was in were decaying before me as my own heart died to the beat of itself and the world got dark and simple as I reinforced myself with "and I am me, and I'm Ameen", then panic as I realized I was strapped to a bed in a red room in the pattern of the dance of life, and then the nurses wouldn't leave me alone haha.

It humbles you, breaks you and then let's you watch yourself come back together.

[Diebert van Rhijn]

Dennis: an object appears (perception) and an inference is made (meaning).... conventional nature only.

Kunga: ...viewed others as beautiful...everything had spiritual meaning and symbolism

Dennis & Kunga, you both speak conveniently and "safe" from the point of view of not having really experienced drug-induced entheogenic states. It doesn't stop at spacing out, feelings of euphoria and wellbeing or hallucinations. More serious journeys can change the subject-object relation itself; unconventional states can be entered. Sometimes "ego death" experiences are reported, which at the very least would be a serious shift where "others" and "objects" cease being separated to some degree. Meaning might stop and even memory of what exactly happened is not always there. This is also why some rather stay in these artificial states as much as possible or experience mental problems afterwards because of the contrast with conventional perceptions supplied by our matrix of culture and physical being, as if the mind cannot resolve these two forms of looking at the same world. Then it's easy to see how schizophrenia might become the result when philosophically there would be no context to learn, to integrate this: digestive problems.

[Kunga]

So what Diebert...the state of one's mind is where you usually go when using drugs. I can't recall everything as it was decades ago....all i remember is a peaceful blissful state of mind. I've experienced Oneness without the use of drugs. Do you feel this egoless state now ? I constantly go back and forth with Ultimate reality and conventional reality....to the point where there is no division....the middle way i guess.....sometimes it's extremely hard for me to hold back my anger...but those feelings are honest....i loathe to communicate on these forums, as i am tired of dealing with people that are toxic to my fragile spirit, that is still in development....but i can tell you one thing for sure, and that is that i have tremendous love for humanity, and nature....and i get hurt deeply and profoundly just as much as i love deeply and profoundly.....i am so sick of so many things.....but i still see the beauty in others ...even ones that hurt me deeply...ahimsa is the way......non harm of anyone......profound.......the mind is a delicate thing... so powerful....use it wisely.....

[ForbidenRea]

O.k.
Incomplete

[ForbidenRea]

Brenda had a baby.
2pac

[Cahoot]

Complete, with some distracting extras.

[dr gonzo]

[quote="Kunga"]My own experiences were always spiritually satisifying. I viewed others as beautiful, a sense of peace, unity and beauty prevailed...everything had spiritual meaning and symbolism. My spirit was not harmed but enhanced. I guess I was fortunate, my mind was always seeking spiritual truth. Awareness never left my side during these experiences. This was long ago. Occasionally I will get a natural high from the beauty of life....especially when viewing nature......flowers...trees.....rain....lakes....oceans.....moon...stars...sky........I am in awe...........[/q

these words are a mirror of my own thoughts on the subject, I enjoy any type of experience, be it synthetically or naturally imposed, but they are all a result of a biochemical reaction in the brain, I love sunsets, mdma, talking with friends, dropping acid, hugging, making love, tasting, smelling, seeing,being alone and just thinking, they all induce biochemical reactions.if there is no reaction, then there is no meaning, surely good can come from almost any experience, with moderation and respect for self and others....don't you think?

[Unidian]

90% of what you get from drugs is nonsense, in terms of "realizations" and the like. Certain substances can be decent aids in meditation, though.