Otto Weininger on MTV

[Talking Ass]

...for you.

[cousinbasil]

I do a few things here: One is to use your own rigidity and lack of understanding of the present to force myself to articulate 'essences' I consider more.relevant, i.e. more essential; and too attempt to build a bridge to your tendentious belief-system. One of the main reasons you likely resist this attempt is that, according to you, YOU are the one who sets the standard, YOU are the one who defines 'most important essences', YOU are the one whose teaching is more relevant, more essential.

Do not think this quote pregnant because it is missing a few ... periods. I removed them in order to make the thought flow as it should. It is like hearing a recording of someone who has hiccups, then hearing the same thing again with the hiccups edited out.

I will agree that David at times seems rigid, and that often makes him appear not to have considered something vital. You use the wonderful word tendentious here, with which (I think) David would not disagree. Yet you are applying it to "belief-system," and that he might argue with.

Because essentially, David, are beliefs not delusions? If you do not know the certainty of a thing, and you spackle it over to smooth out the interstices, you are culpable? But if you refuse to do the cosmetic touches, then you cannot rationally be accused of having a belief system?

Hey Alex, maybe we should wait until David starts putting out that more expositive material he has recently alluded to be at work on?

[Talking Ass]

Unfortunately for us all, I have seen this *explosive material* and if it is the same, I regret to say that it barely fizzles. It is didactic exposition in fiction's garments. Fiction that functions necessitates an emotional component, but David has no place for anything from that part of 'the mind'. He's better off sticking with strict exposition. When I tried to tell him this he of course would have none of it.

[jupiviv]

Let me ask you this: Would you ever consider joining an organization that required you to dress the same, obey the same rules and address the leader as "Lord"?

Like school, university, the fashion industry, the army or a company?

I mean in the context of spirituality. Do you think that passive acquiescence and social conformity is the path that an individual thinker should take?

This is a straw man. You are assuming that anyone who dresses or looks the same way as the members of a group immediately becomes a blind conformist for doing so, which is not necessarily true. I pointed out already that the Buddha probably wasn't interested in challenging the social customs of his day.

Westerners have a real issue with this, not so in the East, where teachers are revered..and considered Buddhas.

Yes, it is one of the definciencies of Eastern culture, that of everyone dissipating their minds away - to the collective, to the family, to a guru. It is the reason why Asian cultures rank among the most oppressive in the world.

And western culture does not have that deficiency?

[Kunga]

A few days ago, Kunga, you expressed an urgent need to know the truth for yourself. It sounded sincere. Indeed, you almost sounded human. But now that seems to have vanished. You've slipped back into devotee mode and gone back to sleep again.

One has to be devoted [devotee], to the Truth. I have experienced the devotee aspect of Eastern religion [to a point], as I have a teacher...unlike you that has never experienced this. Real teachers want their students to be independant and self-reliant...as I have been. I wanted the experience of the traditional way they do it in the East [having a spiritual teacher], however, being a Westerner in the West, teachers are limited to our cultural customs, and I probebly have had it easier than someone that has a teacher in the East.

Yes, it is one of the definciencies of Eastern culture, that of everyone dissipating their minds away - to the collective, to the family, to a guru. It is the reason why Asian cultures rank among the most oppressive in the world.

I see the West as oppressive. Obsessed with egotistical pursuits, materialism, capitalism, etc. I know the same thing happens anywhere in the world. I guess the romantic in me was attracted to Eastern philosophy....since a child...maybe my Chinese Godmother had something to do with it...

[Cory Duchesne]

All I can think to say is that I just read that part about Mother and Whore and he did NOT say that the mother is 'mean, withholding, paranoid, and essentially heartless'. But that her loving energy is exclusive and directed toward the center, her family.

Cory, please quote relevant Scripture.

First of all, I meant that the mother type is predominantly interested in gaining children, and she uses the man as a means to an end. I have a friend who is being utterly whipped by a Machevellian mother type, these ladies are ruthless when anything comes between them and their children. They are heartless about matters pertaining to adult-fun and spirituality. Any lofty endeavours the mother type hates, because it shakes the security required to have a family. So it's not so much that she's heartless, it's that her endocrine system is focused on certain data, so her heart loves a certain spectrum of reality. She is more prone to misandry.

The prostitute type is more receptive to mental energy, mature poetry, masculine conquests, and loves sex for it's own sake.

The mother type, on the other hand, will have sex with her husband as long as he's maintaining his value as a menial labourer.

So there is the irony.

It was a small chapter titled "motherhood and prostitution". Since even Jup seems confused about Weininger's psychology, I will spoon feed you the relevant bits.

All the properties of the male character find remarkable analogies in the female sex (an interesting case will be dealt with later on in this chapter); but in the male the character is always deeply rooted in the sphere of the intelligible, from which there has come about the lamentable confusion between the doctrine of the soul and characterology.

Another striking aspect of the mother's relation to the preservation of the race reveals itself in the matter of food. She cannot bear to see food wasted, however little may be left over; whilst the prostitute wilfully squanders the quantities of food and drink she demands. The mother is stingy and mean; the prostitute open-handed and lavish. The mother's object in life is to preserve the race, and her delight is to see her children eat and to encourage their appetites. And so she becomes the good housekeeper. Ceres was a good mother, a fact expressed in her Greek name, Demeter. The mother takes care of the body, but does not trouble about the mind. The relation between mother and child remains material from the kissing and hugging of childhood to the protective care of maturity. All her devotion is for the success and prosperity of her child in material things.

Maternal love is an instinctive and natural impulse, and animals possess it in a degree as high as that of human beings. This alone is enough to show that it is not true love, that it is not of moral origin; for all morality proceeds from the intelligible character which animals, having no free will, do not possess. The ethical imperative can be heard only by a rational creature; there is no such thing as natural morality, for all morality must be self-conscious.

The prostitute's position outside the mere preservation of the race, the fact that she is not merely the channel and the indifferent protector of the chain of beings that passes through her, place the prostitute in a sense above the mother, so far at least as it is possible to speak of higher or lower from the ethical point of view when women are being discussed.

It coincides with what has been said that only those men are sexually attracted by the mother-type who have no desire for mental productivity. The man whose fatherhood is confined to the children of his loins is he whom we should expect to choose the motherly productive woman. Great men have always preferred women of the prostitute type. (Wherever I am using this term I refer, of course, not merely to mercenary women of the streets.)

The man rewards the appearance of higher morality in the maternal type by raising her morally (although with no reason) and socially over the prostitute type. The latter does not submit to any valuations of the man nor to the ideal of chastity which he seeks for in the woman; secretly, as the woman of the world, lightly as the demi-mondaine, or flagrantly as the woman of the streets, she sets herself in opposition to them. This is the explanation of the social ostracisms, the practical outlawry which is the present almost universal fate of the prostitute. The mother readily submits to the moral impositions of man, simply because she is interested only in the child and the preservation of the race.

It is quite different with the prostitute. She lives her own life exactly as she pleases, even although it may bring with it the punishment of exclusion from society. She is not so brave as the mother, it is true, being thoroughly cowardly; but she has the correlative of cowardice, impudence, and she is not ashamed of her shamelessness. She is naturally inclined to polygamy, and always ready to attract more men than the one who would suffice as the founder of a family. She gives free play to the fulfilment of her desire, and feels a queen, and her most ardent wish is for more power. It is easy to grieve or shock the motherly woman; no one can injure or offend the prostitute; for the mother has her honour to defend as the guardian of the species, whilst the prostitute has forsworn all social respect, and prides herself in her freedom. The only thought that disturbs her is the possibility of losing her power. She expects, and cannot think otherwise than that every man wishes to possess her, that they think of nothing but her, and live for her. And certainly she possesses the greatest power over men, the only influence that has a strong effect on the life of humanity that is not ordered by the regulations of men.

The essence of motherhood consists, as the most superficial investigation will reveal, in that the getting of the child is the chief object of life, whereas in the prostitute sexual relations in themselves are the end. The investigation of the subject must be pursued by considering the relation of each type to the child and to sexual congress.

Consider the relation to the child first. The absolute prostitute thinks only of the man; the absolute mother thinks only of the child. The best test case is the relation to the daughter. It is only when there is no jealousy about her youth or greater beauty, no grudging about the admiration she wins, but an identification of herself with her daughter so complete that she is as pleased about her child's admirers as if they were her own, that a woman has a claim to the title of perfect mother.

The absolute mother (if such existed), who thinks only about the child, would become a mother by any man. It will be found that women who were devoted to dolls when they were children, and were kind and attentive to children in their own childhood, are least particular about their husbands, and are most ready to accept the first good match who takes any notice of them and who satisfies their parents and relatives. When such a maiden has become a mother, it matters not by whom, she ceases to pay any attention to any other men. The absolute prostitute, on the other hand, even when she is still a child, dislikes children; later on, she may pretend to care for them as a means of attracting men through the idea of mother and child. She is the woman whose desire is to please all men; and since there is no such thing as an ideally perfect type of mother, there are traces of this desire to please in every woman, as every man of the world will admit.

[Cory Duchesne]

Oh. Hmmmm. Not what we expected. A...a very subtle reversal of Cory's charges. [Seeming to imply that Cory may send Kevin Valentine's cards].

I agree with Weininger that, in a metaphorical sense, the spiritual Criminal is homosexual. I made a Core webworks meme out of it a couple weeks ago:

The Spiritual Homosexual lives through more Powerful men, but also enjoys dominating them. Two way street.

DQ gives off greater homosexual energy because he projects a more devilish character, and therefore a greater level of subordination surrounds him, possibly feeding his narcissistic supply.


Speaking of spiritual homosexuality, Alex, I uploaded a song and video, I devote this one to you:

Core Webworks presents - Noosphere | by Patrick Watts

[Talking Ass]

Given my own equippage, which has throughout my whole life excited such strange responsiveness from all sectors of society, I am naturally uncomfortable with references to homosexuality, spiritual or otherwise. And yet it seems to subject must be broached, for if one severs all relatedness with Woman and I mean this quite strictly in her Mother role, one is essentially left playing with your own man-thing (and the man-things of one's 'most highly esteemed pals'). If one so loves 'masculine energy' and pushes even tbe sweetest little pussy out into the rain, it seems inevitable that it will eventually lead to a.spiritual Castro District. I wish to suggest at this point that the most successful cultural reconcilliation between men and women that I know of has been within Jewish culture. There, with a sigh perhaps, it has been recognized that it is not possible to do without relatedness, that you are just going to have to accept certain facts about material existence, and that at a fundamental level 'Woman' is now and will always be a part of the picture.

I am glad to see that we have cleared up that wee misunderstanding about the Mother and the Whore. Now, your definition coincides with what I took away from tbe reading.

[Talking Ass]

PS: I was.most pleased with your musical offering and yet I'll confess that for a second I was terrified the link would direct me to some Barbara Streisand video with her singing some tune from Funny Girl...

[Pam Seeback]

Try as a man might, She cannot be killed.

[Diebert van Rhijn]

I agree with Weininger that, in a metaphorical sense, the spiritual Criminal is homosexual. I made a Core webworks meme out of it a couple weeks ago:

The Spiritual Homosexual lives through more Powerful men, but also enjoys dominating them. Two way street.

Interesting stuff. In the end it's also about who is the murderer [the classical who dunnit]. Interestingly Mr. Burns was in the referenced Simpsons series shot by Maggie, the nameless speechless half-alien baby girl. And the famous unaired alternative ending had actually the homosexual Smithers as the criminal, resulting in a pay raise by his admiring boss.

DQ gives off greater homosexual energy because he projects a more devilish character, and therefore a greater level of subordination surrounds him, possibly feeding his narcissistic supply.

Aha! Character murder now? That makes sense.

[Diebert van Rhijn]

Try as a man might, She cannot be killed.

She being nothing but reversal of masculine projection, it's the man that should be worried! On the surface she might appear just to live "through powerful men" and even "enjoys dominating them" under the surface - never outspoken but in jest or play, while at the deepest level it's his sacrificial death that is demanded and subsequently celebrated. In daily life rarely acted out in a literal sense but hardly nothing significant ever is.

[Talking Ass]

[And if you have understood the above, one assumes you are from a dimension 'light years ahead'. Please send back a translation module!]

[Cory Duchesne]

DQ gives off greater homosexual energy because he projects a more devilish character, and therefore a greater level of subordination surrounds him, possibly feeding his narcissistic supply.

Aha! Character murder now? That makes sense.

And right on cue, the mother type rushes to protect her boys from a healthy tussel!

Don't worry, Diebert.. . I am aware of my own absurdity, I had a good teacher.

Here's a valentine for you - the holy Clown

[jupiviv]

The prostitute type is more receptive to mental energy, mature poetry, masculine conquests, and loves sex for it's own sake.

The mother type, on the other hand, will have sex with her husband as long as he's maintaining his value as a menial labourer.

It seems you can't create these Weiningeresque dualisms without making one of them superior to the other, even when there's no reason to do so. Weininger didn't say any of these things in that chapter. You should read it again.

I agree with Weininger that, in a metaphorical sense, the spiritual Criminal is homosexual.

Where does Weininger say this?

DQ gives off greater homosexual energy because he projects a more devilish character, and therefore a greater level of subordination surrounds him, possibly feeding his narcissistic supply.

Ok, now you're cracking me up.

[Cory Duchesne]

The prostitute type is more receptive to mental energy, mature poetry, masculine conquests, and loves sex for it's own sake.

The mother type, on the other hand, will have sex with her husband as long as he's maintaining his value as a menial labourer.

It seems you can't create these Weiningeresque dualisms without making one of them superior to the other, even when there's no reason to do so. Weininger didn't say any of these things in that chapter. You should read it again.

Ah, classic QRS monk. You can't stand to participate in a functional way with society, so you just destroy all subjectivity and bask in nothingness - the mother. You all want a mother, it's obvious. You lack the masculinity to have fun with spiritual women.

You lack character, and hence, you become "a character".

I agree with Weininger that, in a metaphorical sense, the spiritual Criminal is homosexual.

Where does Weininger say this?

Poor Jup. Couldn't even be bothered to read through Weininger's notebook.

"The problem of individuality is the problem of vanity. That there are many souls is
the consequence of vanity. The criminal is vain because he desires singularity. One
needs the onlooker, the theatre, the pose. Thereby the second person arises. Thereby
the criminal is homosexual."

[Cory Duchesne]

Jennifer Connely, a metaphor for Jupiviv, whereas I am David Bowie. Jupivi, a mother, struggles to protect the baby of his delusions.

This little excerpt is a good example of how, after a while, the spiritual man stops being fun, and becomes very stressful to the woman. Her mother instincts kick in and she can longer tune into what he enjoys. All she cares about is her baby.

--

Men look for a woman of deep and strong character, women for a being of intelligence, brilliance, and presence of mind. It is plain, that men seek the ideal man, and women for the ideal woman - consequently not for the complement but for the completion of their own excellence. - PFTH

--

How a man can become a woman

Spiritual pregnancy produces something like a feminine character in a man. And just like a pregnant woman he becomes kinder, more patient, and quite beautiful.

His birthchild is enlightenment. - PFTH

[jupiviv]

Ah, classic QRS monk. You can't stand to participate in a functional way with society, so you just destroy all subjectivity and bask in nothingness - the mother. You all want a mother, it's obvious. You lack the masculinity to have fun with spiritual women.

You just proved me right.

It seems you can't create these Weiningeresque dualisms without making one of them superior to the other, even when there's no reason to do so.

Poor Jup. Couldn't even be bothered to read through Weininger's notebook.

"The problem of individuality is the problem of vanity. That there are many souls is
the consequence of vanity. The criminal is vain because he desires singularity. One
needs the onlooker, the theatre, the pose. Thereby the second person arises. Thereby
the criminal is homosexual."

I must have missed it. I don't know what he means by "homosexual". Perhaps he meant the criminal is more feminine-minded than the genius, but not entirely so(hence, immoral). According to him homosexuals have an equal degree of femininity and masculinity in them. It's hard to interpret some of the aphorisms from the notebook, since he didn't intend them for anyone else to read.

Also, he doesn't say anything about a spiritual criminal there.

I am David Bowie

That certainly explains your posts.

[Ataraxia]

I'm about to start a regular blog which will feature a higher level of writing than what I do here. More detailed and more schematic. I believe it will comprise my best writing yet.

On a technical level, the construction of the site is finished and all set to go. It's just a matter of me being ready to begin the actual writing, and that's not too far away.

I'll let the forum know when it is up and running.

-

Good show, old chap. I look forward to it.

[Talking Ass]

Cory, your musical offerings have me tickled pink (as a manner of speaking). I thought I'd toss up this one back at you: Lost Mind.

You wrote: "I will spoon feed you the relevant bits."

Sorry, it is a bad habit of mine: I ate the spoon. I hope it had no sentimental value.

Jupi wrote: "It's hard to interpret some of the aphorisms from the notebook, since he didn't intend them for anyone else to read.

A private and a public aphorism then? I wish once again to refer to The Anxiety of Influence by the critic Harold Bloom. Despite what any of you say or think, or how wonderful and advanced you imagine you are, many who write here so grandly of their spiritual understanding (sideways glance at David's blog), you are unfortunately really bad, BAD! readers.

One arrives at Heresy when one shifts the emphasis; Revisionism follows the received text along quite obediently but then insists that a wrong turn was taken or that there was a mistake at a certain point (Q-R-S make this assertion about the Buddha's teaching in fact, and they assert their own). This has to do with Fathership and inevitable 'Sonship', and then the Son does what a 'good son' should never do: He possesses the mother-texts for himself! He receives them and holds them in value but only according to his terms! He establishes the terms according to his own Will and Value.

To be involved in any spiritual and religious tradition, especially 'our own' which has insisted on the penetration of religious principals and ideals into all levels of [our] human life, one has to at least try to be a good reader, one has to at least TRY to be not just a queer phallus-worshipper but a genuine seeker on at least SOME level! Which really does mean 'masculine' but not necessarily trussed-up in black leather with chrome spurs....

What I find interesting about Cory's recent Rebellion, which also includes the built-up pockets of steam which are frying portions of his brain, is that he is desirous of engaging in his own 'reading'.

In comparison, our own Diebert (to employ Dennis's own image) is a big-breasted Dutch woman offering a full, rounded, comforting tit to a group of thirsty boys who love him so! The quintessential European Mother! Our own Venus of Willendorf! So, Cory's 'devious' reading has brought to the surface a 'truth' that is inescapable.

Now, what will happen, and what always happens, is that our Local Mothers, to protect their Tittishness, all team up to protect each other. Diebert rallies to the defense with rhetorical pomp-posts. Even Ataraxia appears to bow before the Master and sincerely declare himself Loyal and True!

Isaiah 26:17 "Like as a woman with child, [that] draweth near the time of her delivery, is in pain, [and] crieth out in her pangs; so have we been in thy sight, O LORD.

"We have been with child, we have been in pain, we have as it were brought forth wind; we have not wrought any deliverance in the earth; neither have the inhabitants of the world fallen.

"Thy dead [men] shall live, [together with] my dead body shall they arise. Awake and sing, ye that dwell in dust: for thy dew [is as] the dew of herbs, and the earth shall cast out the dead.

Go forward, my children! Go ye forward and Misinterpret Willfully!

[Diebert van Rhijn]

And right on cue, the mother type rushes to protect her boys from a healthy tussel!

My own now revised psychoanalytical theory would be more in the lines of the Duchesne persona having parental issues inside a complex triangle of masculinity: Kevin seen by you for some reason as motherly type ("gentle", "love for folk" "in-tune", "no angry") while David was the distant father ("possessive", analytical, undiplomatic, angry-dad). And now you have to kill dad before you can stand alone, take his place and get Kevin... it's understandable. :-)

Don't worry, Diebert.. . I am aware of my own absurdity, I had a good teacher.

You do sound a bit more like Sith Lord Alex these days. Are you his apprentice now? Like Kelly Jones, all the kids go through "angry with parents" phases sooner or later. Trying to be "different". Alex is an excellent teacher to learn how to rebel against parents of course, as he's the quintessential angry rebel never grown up know-it-all, on a cool motorbike. But your own style you haven't found yet Cory.

[jupiviv]

So your point is that Cory interprets Weininger's writings differently from others on this forum, he is therefore a real seeker while they are lost in their QRS dogma - correct?

Say, did you notice that David and I differ on our views on Weininger?...whatever could that possibly mean? Perhaps I also am ready to tear myself away from the ample QRS-bosom and chase the beautiful cocotte of a different interpretation of certain religious and/or philosophical texts than that of QRS! You have emancipated me, Alex, from the tyranny of this Philosophical Mother who for so long had imprisoned me in her tremulous embrace of absolutism! I am running away from her....but I hear her cries of truth-valuing, logic-sticking-to and emotion-rejecting even now. But no more shall I hearken to those false, sweet words of my Mother! The cocotte beckons me, she beckons me!

Oh, but soft! my Mother has stopped crying...Is she dead? Yonder I see her form - which I once thought so wonderful, so logical - lying motionless on the ground. She exudes a peaty pathos, for she had withstood, Cincinnatus-esque, against so many illogic-hefted and delusion-clad Gehennan hordes. But now she has teetered and fallen - a single twin tower - for she could not bear the sorrow of losing me, her favourite son. There she lies, preemptively extinguished like Harold at Hastings, revealed as mere jello against the Cullodenic onslaught of the diversionary cocotte of diversionary interpretation.

I know that the other loyal QRSkin would be slow to assign verity to the dispersing cloud of thanatos, the radius of Terror, the red circle of total destruction mapped by my flight from her arms, for verily I was her favourite son. But I see it clearly - there lies the corpse of my Mother - the bobby-soxer who fashioned herself a Sophia, but whose philia for the metaphorical fruits of her loins was at least unquestionable. But what is this sound that now perfunctorily massages my eardrums, so that they are gently titillated? May it be the voice of that jashn-e-bahaara, that noor jahaan, that hairathe aashiqui of self-reading and whimsical interpreting who has of late conturbed my dreams? I shall follow it - goodbye sweet, departed Mother!

[I'll bet a thousand bucks that no one else here can write a more sesquipedalian post.]

[Talking Ass]

Oh no, Diebert. Talking Ass™ takes no apprentices. Those who have been his apprentices he has had to kill in the most theatrical manner: bucking them off over bottomless chasms while crossing the Mountains of Knowing. Or leaving them to drown pathetically in the Seas of Nescience while TA hums pirate ditties and puts flame to his Pipe of Wisdom.

The steam coming out of Cory's ears makes a strange almost eerie whistling noise, but you've got to admit he is more than original in seeking his own path.

Et tu, Deibert?

It's true: you guys sound more and more like old matrons. What is the remedy?

[Diebert van Rhijn]

In comparison, our own Diebert (to employ Dennis's own image) is a big-breasted Dutch woman offering a full, rounded, comforting tit to a group of thirsty boys who love him so! The quintessential European Mother! Our own Venus of Willendorf! So, Cory's 'devious' reading has brought to the surface a 'truth' that is inescapable.

All wisdom aspires to offer the gift of life, it's not a secret, only secretion. Not sure if anyone is taking though but I'm glad to hear you think it might be even a group of thirty! Sometimes I think you are the only one potentially interested in between all the crying and wining since you appear to read them at least.

[Diebert van Rhijn]

[I'll bet a thousand bucks that no one else here can write a more sesquipedalian post.]

The Ass(tm) out-assed. Very good!