Life after death

Discussion of the nature of Ultimate Reality and the path to Enlightenment.

Re: Life after death

Postby David Quinn » Wed Mar 21, 2012 8:13 am

Talking Ass wrote:I am wondering if you think that what you are expressing [which is what you choose to live] is at all similar to what is expressed in the quote below?

    "Can we reach an eschatological understanding of the resurrected Christ by inverting or reversing the ancient church's apprehension of the movement of resurrection and ascension? All too significantly the ancient church identified the movement of resurrection with the movement of ascension, thereby reaching its faith in Christ as the ascended and exalted Lord, the Christ of glory who is the celestial and monarchic Cosmocrator. From a consistently eschatological point of view, the Christ of glory can be seen to be a consequence of ancient Christianity's transforming the forward and downward movement of the Kingdom into the upward and backward movement of the ascension. But what if a radical faith were to transform the backward and upward movement of the ascension into the downward and forward movement of the Word's becoming flesh? Then faith could affirm that the resurrected Christ is not the Christ of glory---not the exalted and celestial Christ, not the monarchical Cosmocrator, not 'the man of heaven' [Paul], and not the primordial Logos or Word. Quite the contrary: the resurrected Christ remains and is yet more deeply the Christ of passion, the lowly and suffering Christ, the servant and the slave, 'the man of dust', the eschatological or final word."

    ---Thomas J.J. Altizer, The Descent Into Hell

By Jesus, that is horrible writing.


Myself, I find this pretty cool and interesting stuff. I recognize that in modern theology it is not in fact really new, but it does open up a way to give credence to that rather compelling idea: The only way out is through. In my own case, I have come to recognize that this idea has been [was] installed in me at a certain very critical point.

When Kierkegaard was very young, his father showed him pictures of various great men of historical times - Napoleon Bonaparte, Alexander the Great, Julius Caesar, etc, all of them dressed in their finest pomp - and included in the collection was a picture of a near-naked Jesus suffering on the cross. His father pointed to the picture of Jesus and said, "He is the greatest of them of all."

This had a big impact on Kierkegaard, causing him to reflect deeply on how it is that a lowly man with no worldly status, persecuted and put to death by the society around him, could be the greatest man of all. Undergoing a tremendous inversion of that kind at such a young age changed his outlook on life completely and sowed the seeds for his adult faith in the Infinite.

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Re: Life after death

Postby Talking Ass » Wed Mar 21, 2012 10:55 am

Sure, tedious writing. But here is the interesting part:

"But what if a radical faith were to transform the backward and upward movement of the ascension into the downward and forward movement of the Word's becoming flesh? Then faith could affirm that the resurrected Christ is not the Christ of glory---not the exalted and celestial Christ, not the monarchical Cosmocrator, not 'the man of heaven' [Paul], and not the primordial Logos or Word. Quite the contrary: the resurrected Christ remains and is yet more deeply the Christ of passion, the lowly and suffering Christ, the servant and the slave, 'the man of dust', the eschatological or final word."
If one were a Christian---I don't think I am one now nor could I be for numerous reasons---I would be very interested in this. It would change, as radically as one would allow it, one's whole relationship with the created world. The whole idea of getting out and getting beyond is then turned around to become a going into as a way forward. I don't think this is at all an easy idea. I am not at all sure that you, illustrious sir, even noticed it.

This had a big impact on Kierkegaard, causing him to reflect deeply on how it is that a lowly man with no worldly status, persecuted and put to death by the society around him, could be the greatest man of all. Undergoing a tremendous inversion of that kind at such a young age changed his outlook on life completely and sowed the seeds for his adult faith in the Infinite.
And why do you think, David, he was the 'greatest man of all'?

The inversion [though one can read inversion many ways] is to imitate that figure. To go down into things, and into matter, and into life, and into hell, and in such a way that one bring transforming energy and possibility with you. How do you view this? How would you view a person or even a group or society that did this?
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Re: Life after death

Postby David Quinn » Wed Mar 21, 2012 6:43 pm

Talking Ass wrote:Sure, tedious writing. But here is the interesting part:

"But what if a radical faith were to transform the backward and upward movement of the ascension into the downward and forward movement of the Word's becoming flesh? Then faith could affirm that the resurrected Christ is not the Christ of glory---not the exalted and celestial Christ, not the monarchical Cosmocrator, not 'the man of heaven' [Paul], and not the primordial Logos or Word. Quite the contrary: the resurrected Christ remains and is yet more deeply the Christ of passion, the lowly and suffering Christ, the servant and the slave, 'the man of dust', the eschatological or final word."
If one were a Christian---I don't think I am one now nor could I be for numerous reasons---I would be very interested in this. It would change, as radically as one would allow it, one's whole relationship with the created world. The whole idea of getting out and getting beyond is then turned around to become a going into as a way forward. I don't think this is at all an easy idea. I am not at all sure that you, illustrious sir, even noticed it.

Both the quoted passage and your comment above are rather vague, so I'm not even sure what it is you are referring to.

But if I were to use that vagueness to articulate my views about living truthfully in the world: then yes, the spiritual path involves both a transcending of the world (via one's consciousness of the Infinite, which is the true nature of the world) and an integration into it. The more deeply one becomes absorbed in the Infinite, the more intense and direct becomes one's interactions in the world, and with other people.

As Lao Tzu said:

    The sage has no mind of his own,
    He is aware of the needs of others.

This is an amazing couplet from Lao Tzu, verging on pure genius. In the simplest and most economical of ways, he manages to encapsulate both the transcendent aspect of spirituality and the immanent aspect, and also their mutual relationship. All of this in just two lines. Brilliant!


Talking Ass wrote:
This had a big impact on Kierkegaard, causing him to reflect deeply on how it is that a lowly man with no worldly status, persecuted and put to death by the society around him, could be the greatest man of all. Undergoing a tremendous inversion of that kind at such a young age changed his outlook on life completely and sowed the seeds for his adult faith in the Infinite.

And why do you think, David, he was the 'greatest man of all'?

You're asking the wrong bloke. I'm not Soren Kierkegaard.

Speaking for myself, it is impossible to judge Jesus as a man, as the records are both scant and suspect. The only thing I can affirm is that various passages of the Gospels constitute some of the greatest wisdom ever set down on paper.


Talking Ass wrote:The inversion [though one can read inversion many ways] is to imitate that figure. To go down into things, and into matter, and into life, and into hell, and in such a way that one bring transforming energy and possibility with you. How do you view this? How would you view a person or even a group or society that did this?

In answering this, I'll refer to something you said on another thread:

Transcending self has never quite.worked for.me so I am having to develop other strategies: immanenting! No.risk of failure!

One cannot spiritually integrate with the world without also transcending the world, and vice versa. They both constitute the same movement. It is sheer nonsense to even think of separating the two.

Bringing spirituality into the everyday world is a marvelous thing, but if you try to do it without abandoning your delusions and going beyond life and death, then you will only add to the misery and confusion that already exists there. You will only end up reaffirming the old adage that the road to hell is paved with good intentions.

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Re: Life after death

Postby movingalways » Sat Mar 24, 2012 1:39 am

Getting out and going beyond individual view brings one to silence, to stillness, to rest; this is transcendent view. There is no forward or backward 'here', because there is no time or space 'here.'

Bringing this awareness back when one re-enters the world is to bring back the spirit of stillness, the spirit of rest, the spirit of transcendence. To bring back anything else is to deny the principles one discovered while in transcendent View.
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Re: Life after death

Postby Diebert van Rhijn » Sat Mar 24, 2012 9:36 pm

movingalways wrote:Bringing this awareness back when one re-enters the world is to bring back the spirit of stillness, the spirit of rest, the spirit of transcendence.

There's no 'spirit' of stillness. She always moves. Like the world always rotating. Forget about bringing any stillness into it. All movement already revolves around stillness. You have nothing to do with it.

To bring back anything else is to deny the principles one discovered while in transcendent View.

Principles are discovered first. Transcendence eventually follows but has no need for principle coming with it or back. To bring anything back is denial of the principle. You're literally empty handed!
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Re: Life after death

Postby movingalways » Tue Mar 27, 2012 1:46 am

Diebert van Rhijn wrote:
movingalways wrote:Bringing this awareness back when one re-enters the world is to bring back the spirit of stillness, the spirit of rest, the spirit of transcendence.

There's no 'spirit' of stillness. She always moves. Like the world always rotating. Forget about bringing any stillness into it. All movement already revolves around stillness. You have nothing to do with it.

To bring back anything else is to deny the principles one discovered while in transcendent View.

Principles are discovered first. Transcendence eventually follows but has no need for principle coming with it or back. To bring anything back is denial of the principle. You're literally empty handed!


If the spirit of stillness is always moving, as you say, they how can movement revolve around stillness? Either there is always movement or there is not.

There is always movement of spirit or awareness; to believe otherwise is to believe that the universe stops while 'God thinks.' However, the movement that causes the universe to appear or not to appear is ever and always invisible to the human sense mind. This is why when a human mind is unconscious, the Mind of God is not unconscious. This is why when the human mind is stilled in its search for balance, the balance that is already present in the Mind of God is revealed.

It is not true that principles are discovered first before entering into Transcendent View. How can one discover the principle of transcendence unless they first experience Transcendent View, that is, are conscious that such a realm of awareness exists? A child transcends crawling and begins to walk, but this is not the conscious discovery of the principle of transcendence. This is why it is by way of conscious transcendence, the understanding of its principle, that the relative is shed, precept by precept, line by line, here a little, there a little.

When I use the phrase "bringing back" in relation to the relative and absolute view, I am speaking of the activity of purification of the relative by the Absolute. From the perspective of purification, words are necessary to "point" in the righteous direction [to point to the Absolute].
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Re: Life after death

Postby Diebert van Rhijn » Tue Mar 27, 2012 6:52 am

movingalways wrote:If the spirit of stillness is always moving, as you say, then how can movement revolve around stillness? Either there is always movement or there is not.

Obviously stillness is not.

How can one discover the principle of transcendence unless they first experience Transcendent View, that is, are conscious that such a realm of awareness exists?

A principle is being discovered also in that case. It's not like something is faced what wasn't there before and experienced millions of times earlier. Even the word itself breaths the leading act.
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Re: Life after death

Postby movingalways » Wed Mar 28, 2012 11:09 pm

Diebert, let's cut to the chase. The thread is called "life after death." I assert that finite things pass away, that they die, but that life, which I equate with infinite awareness, with God, does not pass away, does not die. And that having this wisdom of what dies and what does not die changes one's thinking in a radical way. So radical is this awakening that it ends one's belief that their life is a human life, for human is finite, human passes away.

I find that most 'wise' men will acknowledge that to be attached to finite things is the very definition of delusion, but if you suggest to them that their humanity also falls into this category, they refuse to go that deep into the void [of ALL finite things]. This is why you see 'wise' men erroneously asserting that the human mind is an instrument of the infinite. The human mind is an effect of an unknown cause, this is TRUTH. And being the TRUTH of being an effect of an unknown cause, what can it possibly say of the TRUTH of Cause or a cause? In TRUTH, nothing.
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Re: Life after death

Postby Diebert van Rhijn » Fri Mar 30, 2012 5:07 am

movingalways wrote: The human mind is an effect of an unknown cause, this is TRUTH. And being the TRUTH of being an effect of an unknown cause, what can it possibly say of the TRUTH of Cause or a cause? In TRUTH, nothing.

Just as the human mind one can see life itself is as "an effect of unknown causes". So how could you say possible anything about what stays and what goes? And yet you spoke, rendering your statement above null and void.
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Re: Life after death

Postby SeekerOfWisdom » Mon Dec 03, 2012 9:56 pm

Lol really I'm on a genius forum and the creator posts a thread asserting that death is the end?....

The very concept is nothing but a fleeting illusion of the mind, there is eternal awareness of appearances, time is an abstract concept with no reality, this message wasn't even sent before the thread was posted, this is the key, the cessation of all ignorance is the cessation of all knowledge but that of ignorance. Not just "some" knowledge haha
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