guest_of_logic wrote:these "rights" might in fact be consequences of our level of spiritual development
In other words, it is relative. And ultimately it is meaningless.
guest_of_logic wrote:If you found proof that a young man you knew was trapping women and children in his basement and raping and torturing them slowly before slaughtering them painfully, would you take action to stop him or would you shrug and say, "Oh well, it's only evil by the human definition"?
From an ultimate perspective, all will die, all will pass away like specks of dust. The devil, who think of himself as good, would ask: does it matter if you die now or 50 years later? Does it matter if you die painfully or pleasurably? Why shouldn't the strong get their pleasures, at the expense of the weak's pleasure? From the Devil's perspective, the rapist is the strong one, and it is fair that the strong ones get their pleasures by dominating the weak, by robbing pleasures from the weak, which are the women and children in this case. He would ask, who gives the weak the right to take pleasure away from the strong?
If I can stop him, it mean I am stronger than him or supported by a force stronger than him, which might be current normal society in this case. Then it is also for the pleasure of my side, the strong ones, that I must stop him, the weak one.
Good and evil is a matter of value. What is good is what's valuable. Yet in the face of Nothingness, of Nihilism traditional values no longer stand, though up to this point it has always been the strong that decide what is valuable, it is always those who stand in the top that determine what's right and what's wrong. Will to Power, you see.
I will discuss the problem of Nihilism later in this post in answering Talking Ass, and don't worry, I am no devil's advocate.
Talking Ass wrote:Hello Liberty Sea. I am curious if you see such formulations about 'passion' (which was quite nice I thought) as being harmonious with, say, the declarations in Poison for the Heart. It is true that passions can be---often are---tainted in this world. But I wonder (since Krishnamurti is on the table) if he would have recommended some process of 'poisoning' one's own heart to.drive away taint, or love even if tainted. My intuitive sense (be ause I have not read him except quotes people.offer) is no.
Careful, I.am.attempting to draw you.into controversy... ;-)
To.be a skilled teacher or one who roots out 'spiritual error' is a pretty fraught occupation. If one really had the skill and the calling, it would.seem to.me that it would require an almost uncanny knowledge of human types. A wide familiarity with people. Much tolerance and respect.
Transcending self has never quite.worked for.me so I am having to develop other strategies: immanenting! No.risk of failure! Huaaar huaaar....
Poison of the Heart is a bad title. And poison is a bad metaphor.
The book itself is pretty good, though nowhere near the greatest book in existence. The title, however, reminds me of some sorts of pulp fictions or trashy sensational books. Most intelligent people these days (the young ones) tend not to take a word as cheesy as 'heart' seriously when it is used as a metaphor, whether poison for the heart or medicine for the heart. As for those who take the word heart seriously, the book is too cynical for them anyway. And poison, too, increase that sort of cheesiness. "Poison" suggests something petty, sneaky, and bitter, rather than sublimity.
Timelessness doesn't spill from it as titles like: "Human, All to human", "The Gay science", "Thus Spake Zarzthustra" (Nietzsche), "A sickness unto death", "The crowd is Untruth" (Kierkegaard), The savior of God (Nikos Kazantzakis), "The first and last Freedom", "The Ending of Time", "You are the world", "The only revolution", "Urgency of change" (Krishnamurti).
If it is placed in a bookshelf in some bookstore I don't know if it will get noticed by anyone worthy. And I don't know how he is going to get it published as the chance is likely to become even dimmer after his death. He has not an organization that can support him financially, or rich devoted followers, and he refused a scholarship that may help him publish it.
The metaphor suggests the book will destroy the falsity of the heart and that an intelligent man will take the poison and then grow immune to it. But does that describe his size?
According to Krishnamurti, the flame of passion is "a flame that destroys anything that is false. And we are always so afraid to allow that flame to devour the things that we hold dear, the things that we call important", something that is not "respectable", i.e. not likely to be respected by society.
That is a better metaphor to me. Whether or not they mean the same thing, and 'flame' may sound too 'orthodox', the latter suggests significance and positiveness. The man of intelligence must kindle in himself an all-consuming flame that will destroy all that is rubbish inside him, and from the the ash a new man will be born, a new life will begin. And he himself will become a flame, a phoenix with wings of fire that will purify the world.
Is that a great responsibility? Who can be that phoenix? Who can be the Atlas that will shoulder this fallen world?
Martin Heidegger is remembered for his appeal for the revival of Being of the Western world which has been forgotten in Western philosophical tradition from Plato to Nietzsche. And here in the Eastern world, Being is also forgotten, yet which man has thought of reviving it?
Is it true that if you praise, if you exalt the Eastern cultural and philosophical tradition you will understand the Being of the Eastern World? Is it true that you appeal for the revival of the ancient Eastern wisdom, you will comprehend the Being of the Eastern World? All our theories and opinions, no matter how “Eastern”, would still be stuck in the West's conceptual network, even if we don’t use a single word of Western languages, because in the 21st centuries the footsteps of Western civilization has gotten carved deep all over the Earth. The air has been polluted, we have no choice. The Eastern man today, any Eastern man who has thorough and clear awareness of life in all facets, must bear in himself two destinings (destining, a Heideggerian term, not destiny): first, the destining of a man living in the 21st century, namely the destining of the West, because to live in the 21st century is to live with and within and by the Western table of values; second, the destining of the blood flowing in his veins, namely the destining of the East.
Any man who has deep philosophical interest will inevitably stumble upon Nihilism, and he will either be consumed by it or conquer it. Nihilism, according to Nietzsche, is the devaluation of the highest values. The highest values are The True-All that which really is; The Good-All that upon which everything everywhere depends; The Beautiful-The order and unity of All that is in its entirety, and God stands for those values. Nihilism to Nietzsche and Heidegger is a historical movement that did not begin with them, but has been set into motion since antiquity. Disbelief in God is not the ground of Nihilism, but rather a consequence of it. Christendom itself is a consequence of Nihilism, as opposed to Christianity. Christianity already ended with the crucifixion of Christ, the first and last Christian. Christendom and the organized system of belief in the Christian God-the highest value- have been used as a mean to power, an exercise of power and a disguise for power, which signified a disbelief in a good god itself. God is dead, i.e. the authority of traditional values is dead. God in this sense if the super-sensory world, which is metaphysical, hence Nietzsche's metaphysics is the metaphysics of value. This analysis may not help you to fully understand it without firm knowledge in metaphysical tradition, but I hope you get the main point. Men have to become Gods themselves to recreate values. A full, accomplished, finished Nihilism is not only the devaluation of all former values but also the transvaluation of all values, and not just a simple task as putting value in Reason. Nietzsche's maintained that Will to power must be the ground for this transvaluation, but Heidegger suggested that Will to Power only strengthens Nihilsm, not overcomes and finishes it.
The nihilism that is originated from ancient Greece is the destining of the West. The nihilism that is originated from ancient India is the destining of the East, which Nagarjuna has struggled against. The Western man today may only face his Western Nihilism, but the Eastern man with his double destining must face not only the Nihilism of the East, but he must also embrace the Nihilism of the West, to take upon his shoulders the two streams of historical destining. Hence, the mission of the Eastern Thinker today is twice as heavy as his Western counterpart’s, as he is bound to track back to the origin of Being of not only the East, but also of the West, to complete his double destined existence. In other words, the modern Western man might have only forgotten the Being of Greek origin, but the Eastern man has forgotten twice as much, hence the Eastern culture is increasingly collapsing. And it has collapsed even more pitifully when people desired to revive it, because it is not a true revival, only a revival of a symbol, which has no real significance. The Being of the East can only be revived in the 21st century when the Being of the West is harbored and embraced in the former's destining and existence.
This is his task:
1. To redetermine the limit of Western thinking (represented through philosophy, metaphysics, psychology, sociology, logic, all sciences and technology)
2. To redetermine the limit of Eastern thinking (represented through the system and mysticism of Hinduism, Buddhism, Taoism, Confucianism)
3. To redetermine the limit of limitedness/finiteness, and set the new table of values on the ground of infinitude.
In the modern Eastern World, who has the size, the ability, the genius and preparation to carry out this historical mission? Who has the vision, the charisma, the insight and the strength that can overcome the two Great waves of upcoming Nihilism? Can one accomplish it by simply living a so-called 'philosophic life', by writing a book that is not read anywhere other than the Internet, by withdrawing from social and political activities?http://i.imgur.com/uiruC.jpg