In everything I do ....

[Cahoot]

This is a different matter. Things like falling in love, experiencing intuitions and altered states, or sublime forms of happiness, can happen "incidentally", without our intending to experience them. But enlightenment is not like this. Enlightenment can only come about after a long and sustained conscious effort to understand reality. It is an act of genius.

Since enlightenment is something that is done, could you tell someone if they are enlightened by knowing what specific things they have done, and by the way they tell it?

[cousinbasil]

This is a different matter. Things like falling in love, experiencing intuitions and altered states, or sublime forms of happiness, can happen "incidentally", without our intending to experience them. But enlightenment is not like this. Enlightenment can only come about after a long and sustained conscious effort to understand reality. It is an act of genius.

Since enlightenment is something that is done, could you tell someone if they are enlightened by knowing what specific things they have done, and by the way they tell it?

If the "you" in this question is DQ specifically (and not meaning the generic "one"), doesn't he do just that all the time here at GF?

There seems to be a protocol to it. David rarely - if ever - will pronounce that he himself is enlightened, simply that he knows of what enlightenment consists, and the means required to achieve it and what approaches are doomed to failure. That is the first part of the protocol stack. Similarly, you will rarely if ever hear him say of any poster (or to any poster) "now, he is enlightened" or "you are enlightened." This, it seems to me, is not because it is his take that no one who shows up here is enlightened, but to make remarks to that effect would violate the first part of the protocol stack. This then, would be the second level to the protocol.

The entire protocol is a bit complex, but it doesn't prohibit him from openly judging a person's views on enlightenment to be false, misguided, or inadequate, thereby implying that person could not possibly be enlightened. Such negative replies logically do not require enlightenment to pronounce, and so do not violate the rest of the protocol.

Imagine that - he adheres to a strict protocol - and he's a bl**din' Aussie!

[Cahoot]

Cuz. How you doin.

It’s a totally upfront question. I just want to know yes or no, to establish a basis of discussion in this direction. It seems to interest me right now. Lots going on.

Btw: I was painting sections of an old house, outside, at a wealthy riding academy in the countryside. This was June of 2010, as I recall. I watched the owner, who was in his fifties, and his young wife while they worked, while I was working. They would spend the day leading horses from the plush barn down a long, curving private road to the corral, and they would train the horses. About an hour or longer, give or take. Then back to the barn for another horse. Sometimes they took two and worked them at either end of the corral at the same time. Sometimes they took the owners down and taught them. The owner was Buddhist. In the garage a porsche, some kind of sedan, matching motorcycles and bicycles, lots of vehicles outside for the operation.

Anyway, at that time I remember hearing on the radio something about a Cousin Basil who was a senatorial nominee from South Carolina, I think it was.

Does your name reference that fellow?

[Tomas]

This is a different matter. Things like falling in love, experiencing intuitions and altered states, or sublime forms of happiness, can happen "incidentally", without our intending to experience them. But enlightenment is not like this. Enlightenment can only come about after a long and sustained conscious effort to understand reality. It is an act of genius.

Since enlightenment is something that is done, could you tell someone if they are enlightened by knowing what specific things they have done, and by the way they tell it?

It's like (quite literally) raising a child from birth. Personality exhibits itself somewhere around four months to the first teething. Momma can then consider limiting breast feeding. When the choppers are there, eliminating momma's milk and introducing some solids that have been salivated by momma then 'spit' into baby's mouth. The child is watching the mouth-movements and attempts the same. Then, a bit later comes potty training... so on and so forth.

One doesn't take a hammer and chisel to enlightenment. More some fine sandpaper maybe everyday for the 'quick learners' and rougher gauge for the dolts like (fill in the spaces with empty space cadets here at Genius). Time takes time.

I seem to recall David had placed (by percentiles) his 'enlightenment' in the 70's.

Mine? in the 90's.

Why so low, I have kept a daily log since I was 9 years old. Attempt to write every day there hae been a couple weeks sometimes a three month gap over the course of the past 50 some years.


.

[Cahoot]

This is a different matter. Things like falling in love, experiencing intuitions and altered states, or sublime forms of happiness, can happen "incidentally", without our intending to experience them. But enlightenment is not like this. Enlightenment can only come about after a long and sustained conscious effort to understand reality. It is an act of genius.

Since enlightenment is something that is done, could you tell someone if they are enlightened by knowing what specific things they have done, and by the way they tell it?

It's like (quite literally) raising a child from birth. Personality exhibits itself somewhere around four months to the first teething. Momma can then consider limiting breast feeding. When the choppers are there, eliminating momma's milk and introducing some solids that have been salivated by momma then 'spit' into baby's mouth. The child is watching the mouth-movements and attempts the same. Then, a bit later comes potty training... so on and so forth.

One doesn't take a hammer and chisel to enlightenment. More some fine sandpaper maybe everyday for the 'quick learners' and rougher gauge for the dolts like (fill in the spaces with empty space cadets here at Genius). Time takes time.

I seem to recall David had placed (by percentiles) his 'enlightenment' in the 70's.

Mine? in the 90's.

Why so low, I have kept a daily log since I was 9 years old. Attempt to write every day there hae been a couple weeks sometimes a three month gap over the course of the past 50 some years.


.

Interesting. I remember coming across that percentage thing on the solidarity forum. Maybe it’s just a silly question. I was trying to imply a request ... if David could tell me if I am enlightened. I respect his words.

And yours too, Tank.

[Cahoot]

That daily log.

It's like compound interest for the spirit.

A great gift for the future, Sir.

If I could, I would hire someone to digitize it, and self-publish it for you. Enough for your needs. For family. Fine quality. Leather binding. Old style. Made to last for a long time. But I paint houses, and can’t do that for you. Maybe you could. And make at least one extra one?

They say that's how money is made.

[Cahoot]

I enjoy reading comments. Of all kinds. They reveal much. You know?

[jufa]

Dennis asked:

What do you say after you say hello?

He seem to miss the answer in these terms : what is apropro because the words [that what is] was not placed as the engine. So in answer I place the three words as front-runners with trailers and a question as the caboose. That which is what is apropro for the moment. What is apropro for the moment to give an answer to hello your question when I say to you now HELLO? Give a fitting response please, and I'll determine if it is what is apropro.

Whose power play and what brick wall are you talking about Dennis when you say:

That, in and of itself is a power play.
Fronting up as a brick wall.

Please reply by example. I notice you are short on giving examples.

All man's knowledge and words are necessary for communication. Communication has always been by way of thought first. Words give meaning of relativity by labels of comprehension from outer objective visions and inner subjective feelings. Experience is the awakening of the human mind to the unlimited worlds without end he can go to by mind travel. Absorption of these worlds he experiences in mind fills mind with dead end interpretations, concepts, ideas, theories, opinions, and a hope only obtainable when he leaves the realm of the human mind and rides the wave of Christ's Spirit. It is not until man ones himself with the Christ Spirit, can man's world, theories, opinions, ideas and interpretations become whole, perfect, complete and pure in mind. “My thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways....for as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts higher than your thoughts.” Man's thoughts and ways are fragments of God's original intent, purpose, and will, which flows continuously within the Godhead.

I just love it when you give me the opportunity to say Hello in the immediate way above. Hello! My power play. What power thst is I have no idea, but its mine.

Never give power to anything a person believes is their source of strength - jufa

http://theillusionofgod.yuku.com

[cousinbasil]

Anyway, at that time I remember hearing on the radio something about a Cousin Basil who was a senatorial nominee from South Carolina, I think it was.

Does your name reference that fellow?

If nominated, I will not run. If elected, I will not serve...

No, Diebert had it right a while back with his momentous insight.

Cuz. How you doin.

In another Shemp classic, this same underrated comic actress played a beautiful niece at a Scottish castle. The boys asked who she was, and she replied: "Perhaps ye've heard o' me. My name is Lorna Doone!"
Shemp goes: "Oh hi, Lorna! How ya Doone?"

[Cahoot]

I forgot how funny they actually are. Actually, more funny now.

Larry cracks me up.

Funny because of the times, I suppose.

[Dennis Mahar]

Jufa,

I just love it when you give me the opportunity to say Hello in the immediate way above.

I thought you might.
Hello.

[David Quinn]

If you don't strive for enlightenment, you will never find it. You will have no more chance of becoming enlightened than a cow or a rock.

I agree regarding enlightenment, but I was talking about non-attachment. This happens incidentally in the presence of understanding.

If one could permanently maintain the understanding in one's mind - fully, with perfect clarity - then what you say would be true. Permanent non-attachment would follow naturally.

In reality, however, what happens is that a person initially only experiences enlightenment in short bursts. The perfect clarity of those few moments is quickly swamped by the more deep-seated habitual delusions and attachments that he has indulged in over the course of his lifetime.

It's like a toddler standing up for the first time. He struggles, he finally stands, and then he immediately falls back down again. He still has further work to do before he can stand and walk and run....

But unlike the toddler, the task of "standing, walking and running" for the enlightened person doesn't come naturally or effortlessly. It requires years of strong desire and hard work.

Enlightenment signals the beginning of the spiritual path, not the end of it.

-

[David Quinn]

This is a different matter. Things like falling in love, experiencing intuitions and altered states, or sublime forms of happiness, can happen "incidentally", without our intending to experience them. But enlightenment is not like this. Enlightenment can only come about after a long and sustained conscious effort to understand reality. It is an act of genius.

Since enlightenment is something that is done, could you tell someone if they are enlightened by knowing what specific things they have done, and by the way they tell it?

As far as reading words on an internet forum is concerned, it comes down to the quality of their words. Are they able to show their command of the subject by speaking about it simply and clearly? Are they speaking their own mind or repeating the words of another? Are they able to vary their approach and point to the "essential matter" in thousands of different ways? Does the truth shine out in everything they say?

So in other words, I tend to judge people on "the way they tell it", rather than on "what specific things they have done".

-

[cousinbasil]

Larry cracks me up.

Larry, you say...?

[mental vagrant]

If i set it aside. Form as the thing and function its relations in the grand scheme?

MV...would you mind explaining that for a simpleton like me.

Simpleton
Gary

I was separating the thing from it's voyeur. A fundamental construct, which is transmutable by it's unavoidable relations to everything present and not present at the same time.

Dude..you're just robbing yourself. A cognitive model needs clarity, otherwise it's just confusion.

Confusion
Gary

No, i'm trying to get you to explain why you talk of form and function, then reject the 'anthropic bias'.

[mental vagrant]

It has been the same question for a few pages now. Hoping for your explanation of form and function.

[Whatshappening]

But unlike the toddler, the task of "standing, walking and running" for the enlightened person doesn't come naturally or effortlessly."

I separated this comment, intentionally, to highlight a point.

I've taken it out of context, in fairness to the author, because by itself it's absurd. However, it does provide a good starting point for discussion and awakening.

"...the task of "standing, walking and running" for the enlightened person doesn't come naturally or effortlessly", don't believe this. It couldn't be further from the truth. Could you imagine a struggling/bumbling enlightened person. Yes, but only if they did it on purpose, and it's guaranteed they are still doing it naturally and hence effortlessly.

I know and agree gaining understanding is a struggle, breaking through on your own is an extreme (un)challenge. The trick is you got to see it. You got to see that you see. Nobody can see that for you, you see it on your own. Fortunately most of us are cognitively prepared, we do it all the time. It's just we've been told so many times, in so many different ways, now we have a tough time believing/appreciating our natural disposition towards enlightenment and non-attachment.

"...we do it all the time." I'll explain but first need to identify a type of mindset. The transcendent mindset, the place from where non-attachment happens naturally. Most people access this on a daily basis, some completely surround themselves in this mindset, as a carpenter I see this everyday.

There is a process that happens to people as they gain competency in any particular field. If they are, creatively, good at what they do, they do it from the transcendent mindset. It's from that place where they make their decisions, it's from that place that they draw on for guidance in the moment. They conduct their activities from this mindset. I(We) do this everyday as my(our) plans unfold.

The process happens so naturally we take it for granted and don't realize it's importance in our development to, and maintaining, a state of effortless enlightenment. A state of non-attached effortless enlightenment. Look to what you do well. Ask yourself,"how do you know". How do you know you do it well?

It's because you see yourself doing it. In your own mind you see it. As mentioned, I'm a carpenter, a really capable carpenter. I know because I see it, I see myself doing it. That is the transcendent mind.

In fairness it should be referred to as the transcendent non-mind. It more accurately represents the situation and once understood, automatically, produces ever present non-attachment in situ. We didn't create the rules, you don't attach to them, unless you want to be frustrated, stressed out, and all those other wonderful things you get. Watch the guy who has little swagger in his walk, he knows, he knows the rules, and he knows they are constants.

The hardest part to any of this is drawing the parallel(s) from what you do everyday and applying it to the issue of your "path" . You can do it, we almost all can. You transcend every time you see yourself working with some aspect of reality. It's as simple as planning diner. When in the process of considering a completed dinner you see yourself cooking, you plan "accordingly" to what you know and see. If those plans don't go well, you burnt dinner, most get irritated, that's the attached mind. The non-attached would chuckle at themselves, knowing the rules(constants) of cooking.

It's important to make a distinction. A distinction between non-caring and non-attachment. The non-caring don't learn from the feedback, the non-attached hear it constantly.

With regards to enlightenment and reality, it's helpful to parallel your conditions. In other words look to what you do well for applicable, transferable characteristics and fundamental truths. It's about developing a cognitive model, from a transcendent position. You do it already, anything you're good at involves developing a cognitive model (how to cook dinner) from a transcendent position.

When contemplating reality go to that transcendent place seeing yourself in situ and learn what you can. If it doesn't work, put the book down, and go do more stuff. It's there for the taking...there's no hurry it will be there for awhile yet. Lot's of time for the connection to be made. Once there, you reach the last attachment, that being reality. I love that, I live that, I identify with that.

Identify
Gary

[Dennis Mahar]

What you are describing there is an incredible possibility for being Gary.
It's what a Zen practitioner is accessing when the name 'mindfulness' is put out there.
It's a way of being that you 'get' as a distinction aside from all the other ways of being.

It's what you generate.

It's there in every waking moment,
in every breath you make,
in every step you take.
If you look for it.

You can't buy it.
It's a who you are for you.
It's a thing you access when you know about it.
It's a door that's always open to walk thru' if you're up to it.

It's action/awareness merged.
loss of self-consciousness.
the anxiety ridden 'I' disappears, there's nobody home, just awareness.
detached.

Sportsmen call it 'in the zone'.

You and all the equipment present gel in unison.

It's funny how people can intone the word 'mindfulness' endlessly and fail to realise its character.

[Whatshappening]

What you are describing there is an incredible possibility for being Gary.
It's what a Zen practitioner is accessing when the name 'mindfulness' is put out there.
It's a way of being that you 'get' as a distinction aside from all the other ways of being.

It's what you generate.

It's there in every waking moment,
in every breath you make,
in every step you take.
If you look for it.

You can't buy it.
It's a who you are for you.
It's a thing you access when you know about it.
It's a door that's always open to walk thru' if you're up to it.

It's action/awareness merged.
loss of self-consciousness.
the anxiety ridden 'I' disappears, there's nobody home, just awareness.
detached.

Sportsmen call it 'in the zone'.

You and all the equipment present gel in unison.

It's funny how people can intone the word 'mindfulness' endlessly and fail to realise its character.

"'mindfulness' endlessly and fail to realise its character." or the freedom that comes with it.

Thanks Dennis for the summary. I have a question, though. Who's that Zen guy?

I'd like to put them to work. I love working with people who work like that.

Work
Gary

[Dennis Mahar]

I'd like to put them to work. I love working with people who work like that.

They're usually busy changing light bulbs.

If today's gig is setting up the trusses.
That's what you do.
Minimum fuss, maximum effect.
Awareness/action merged.

It's all about the task at hand and what you bring to it.

If 'where you're at' is a 'chick chaser' in the 'world eating business'...
then it's a task.

Then the idea of Tantric Sex arrives.
Put the tug boat into port and rock gently on the waves without unloading the cargo for at least an hour..

Whatever task it is, bring serenity to it, mental clarity.

[Whatshappening]

I'd like to put them to work. I love working with people who work like that.

They're usually busy changing light bulbs.

If today's gig is setting up the trusses.
That's what you do.
Minimum fuss, maximum effect.
Awareness/action merged.

It's all about the task at hand and what you bring to it.

If 'where you're at' is a 'chick chaser' in the 'world eating business'...
then it's a task.

Then the idea of Tantric Sex arrives.
Put the tug boat into port and rock gently on the waves without unloading the cargo for at least an hour..

Whatever task it is, bring serenity to it, mental clarity.

"They're usually busy changing light bulbs." Oh no...that's what a maintenance man does.

In my experience the maintenance guy can be a pain in the butt. The journey-man can stay ahead of most minds, but until realized, has trouble with those that stand still, maintaining.

Incidentally, also messing up serenity until the Superintendent wises up and deals with it in one of the last few site meetings.

Journey-men find serenity in action, without much conversation, they are all working from the same place, from the same mind, from realities' mind, (un)consciously knowing ours is, primarily, about perception, awareness.

An aware leader can't be unrealistic, just like you can't hear a smell, the one condition doesn't allow for the other.

How can I have ten leaders (foreman & professionals) on a job site and never have a real power struggle? If it's felt, I know someone is not being realistic, it's easy to deal with. "It's not who's right, it's what's right", with that in hand it becomes simple.

Simple
Gary

[Cahoot]

How can I have ten leaders (foreman & professionals) on a job site and never have a real power struggle? If it's felt, I know someone is not being realistic, it's easy to deal with. "It's not who's right, it's what's right", with that in hand it becomes simple.

That’s worthy of marble.
Fewer words, less carving.

[Dennis Mahar]

How can I have ten leaders (foreman & professionals) on a job site and never have a real power struggle? If it's felt, I know someone is not being realistic, it's easy to deal with. "It's not who's right, it's what's right", with that in hand it becomes simple.

As such,
mindfulness is 'known' as etiquette.

"They're usually busy changing light bulbs."

It's a gag.
light bulbs mean 'cognitions'.
like in cartoons, where the guy having a bright idea is drawn with a light globe in a bubble above his head.

Journey-men find serenity in action, without much conversation, they are all working from the same place, from the same mind, from realities' mind, (un)consciously knowing ours is, primarily, about perception, awareness.

It's a marvel isn't it?
how men can co-operate without chatter on a project.
Analysts think it's derived from early days when men hunted together.
If the men were stalking prey and were given to idle chatter, the prey would be alerted by the noise and there'd be no dinner.
Silence is golden.

Women's fear kept them house bound, chattering like monkeys about 'feelings' and other psychological dramas.

[Kunga]

Women's fear kept them house bound, chattering like monkeys about 'feelings' and other psychological dramas.

No Tarzan...Woman were house bound to care for all the love children Man and his monkeying around feeling her tits and ass made in his fucking drama.

[Dennis Mahar]

That's your excuse.