Tired of Ultimate Realty, On lookout for Something Different

Discussion of the nature of Ultimate Reality and the path to Enlightenment.

Re: Tired of Ultimate Realty, On lookout for Something Different

Postby Unidian » Fri Feb 29, 2008 1:26 pm

Yes, of course.

EDIT: So, can you explain to me why, in your view, David appears to resent it when people reject the concept of "Ultimate Reality?"
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Re: Tired of Ultimate Realty, On lookout for Something Different

Postby Dan Rowden » Fri Feb 29, 2008 1:41 pm

He doesn't resent it; he tries to show them the error of their ways in doing so (which includes thinking it to be a concept), in the same way a Buddhist might try to show a person the error in rejecting "Emptiness" for mistaken reasons.
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Re: Tired of Ultimate Realty, On lookout for Something Different

Postby Unidian » Fri Feb 29, 2008 1:48 pm

That would probably fly if he (and you) didn't engage in so much self-aggrandizement. Why do both of you guys have all this "most intelligent forums/websites in the world" sort of language on your web pages? That's something I've never understood. How can it attract anything but egotists and/or gullible people looking for objects of worship?

Genius News is a monthly newsletter based on the world's most intelligent email and web forums: Genius-L (now defunct) and Genius Forum.

See http://geniusrealms.com/ for more examples.
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Re: Tired of Ultimate Realty, On lookout for Something Different

Postby Dan Rowden » Fri Feb 29, 2008 2:06 pm

<Sam Impersonation>

That's not about US, that's about YOU. You see self-aggrandisement through your own filters.

</impersonation>

I would have no problem at all with any other place on the internet engaging in the same discussions using that sort of language about itself. It's partly provocative and partly true; it's partly provocative because it's true. Discussion about the most basic and profound ideas that humans can consider is by its very nature dangerous etc. Debating work, for example, fits perfectly well in this descriptive framework. It is the most important, most challenging, most difficult and dangerous stuff people can talk about - and therefore, in my terms, also the most intelligent - because intelligence encompasses much more than mere computational power.

If you want to call what you do, "babble", that's your prerogative.
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Re: Tired of Ultimate Realty, On lookout for Something Different

Postby Unidian » Fri Feb 29, 2008 2:18 pm

Babble doesn't necessarily imply worthlessness, at least the way I use it. Some babblings are more useful than others. At the end of the day, we're all primates running around and gibbering away in a universe that refuses to answer back - but some of us do gibber a bit more coherently than others. :)
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Re: Tired of Ultimate Realty, On lookout for Something Different

Postby David Quinn » Fri Feb 29, 2008 2:31 pm

Unidian wrote:"Glorious Truth" doesn't dump on people because they don't share your (disordered) temperament.

And if you were any kind of Zen teacher (rather than a Quinnanentics teacher), you'd know that it's only when people become good and well tired of concepts like "Ultimate Reality" that they have any chance to shift into a direct experience of reality (no capital R or other concept-based qualifiers).

Without making the all-important breakthrough into infinite understanding (what Hakuin calls "negotiating the Great Barrier"), it doesn't really matter if you become tired of concepts or not. You will still be trapped in finite thinking, regardless.

What you are describing above is a kind of nihilism which is content with being aware of the here and now and reveling in animal pastimes. That's all very well, but it isn't Zen. Not by a long shot.

I've come to the conclusion that you have no understanding of what infinite understanding means, and no idea of what negotiating the Great Barrier is all about. It is the reason why whenever it is pointed to your attention on this forum, you literally see nothing there. It is the reason why you find wise concepts empty and meaningless.

As Kevin once said, making the movement into infinite understanding is a very odd thing to do. It is always very close to us, and yet there is a strange, hidden barrier in the way. Whether or not one becomes awake to this barrier is a matter of luck more than anything else.

So it is perhaps understandable that most people are bewildered by wise words, and why so many of them retreat to the nihilism of animal consciousness as a kind of refuge. That's their privilege, but it isn't Zen.

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Re: Tired of Ultimate Realty, On lookout for Something Different

Postby Unidian » Fri Feb 29, 2008 3:27 pm

David,

What you are describing above is a kind of nihilism which is content with being aware of the here and now and reveling in animal pastimes.

Nonsense. Being aware of the here and now is fine, but why do you tack on this bit about "reveling in animal pastimes?"

If that's what you're saying my views are all about, then I'm a horrible practitioner of them. I rarely, if ever, engage in animal pastimes. The bulk of my time is spent right here in front of this computer throwing around words and concepts just like you do - except that I don't imagine that mine give me special access to reality.

I've come to the conclusion that you have no understanding of what infinite understanding means, and no idea of what negotiating the Great Barrier is all about.

Mmm-hmm. You came to that conclusion 5 years ago, David. Getting forgetful in your old age?

It is the reason why whenever it is pointed to your attention on this forum, you literally see nothing there. It is the reason why you find wise concepts empty and meaningless.

No, that's because of Zen and Taoism - two subjects you have zero respect for except insofar as they can be used to lend authority to your pose of Buddhahood.

As Kevin once said, making the movement into infinite understanding is a very odd thing to do. It is always very close to us, and yet there is a strange, hidden barrier in the way. Whether or not one becomes awake to this barrier is a matter of luck more than anything else.

The barrier is the thought that there is a barrier. That's it. Get rid of that and you're there, because it's only a thought that you can be anywhere but where you've always been. But I wouldn't call it "infinite understanding," of course. That would be likely to get me stick-smacked by any Zen teacher, since the concept of their being an "infinite understanding" to be gained is just one more way of affirming the idea that "it" is somewhere other than "here."

So it is perhaps understandable that most people are bewildered by wise words, and why so many of them retreat to the nihilism of animal consciousness as a kind of refuge. That's their privilege, but it isn't Zen.

What I'm talking about has nothing to do with any rubbish concepts such as "animal consciousness" or even "Buddha consciousness," and if Zen were anything more than a prop for your pretense of "enlightenment," you'd understand that.
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Re: Tired of Ultimate Realty, On lookout for Something Different

Postby Alex Jacob » Sat Mar 01, 2008 1:32 am

When we get to these difficult impasses, it is good to return to the Pre-Enlightenment Cycle of Didactic Stories, kind of like the Buddhists who recenter themselves by 'focusing on the breath'.
__________________________________________

One day, very early in the morning, Uncle Fox made his way through the forest. As he passed the river he spied a school of big fish swimming in a deep pool. Excited, he began to fish and since they were so many the fish in the pool in no time he had 3 huge river bass.

Very pleased, he went home and said to his wife:

---Aunt Fox! Look at the fish I caught today!
---Oh, my word! What huge river bass!---said Aunt Fox, licking her jowls with delight.
---Yep, they're so big you and I could eat just one each and there'd be one left over. And that's why I thought we'd invite Uncle Tiger from the Forest of Ultimate Reality over for dinner. It's a good idea to keep him well-disposed, don't you think, Aunt Fox?
---I completely agree, my darling Uncle Fox! I shall fry with great delight these 3 river bass! They'll turn out very good and tasty! You run along to invite Uncle Tiger, y'hear?

Uncle Fox rubbed his paws together in satisfaction and ran off to find Uncle Tiger in the Forest of Ultimate Reality.

Aunt Fox began to fry the fish and when they were fried to perfection, they turned out so appetizing and smelled sooooo good, that she said to herself:
---I'll just give one of these bass a little 'taste-test' to make sure it's salted right. Just a tiny, itty-bitty little peice! It would be extremely impolite to have eaten before Uncle Fox got back with our esteemed guest...

So, she took a little nibble and found it so delighfully tasty that she took another, and forgetting the resolution she made, soon gobbled up the whole fish and licked the plate too.

---Oh my! That was goooood! Best if I taste Uncle fox's too, to make sure it is cooked completely through! If it weren't he might get terribly upset with me!

So, she took a nibble from the well-toasted tail, and then the left fin, and the right, and then the head, and before she realized it she'd devoured Uncle Fox's fish and licked the plate clean.

--Heavens! I ate the whole thing!--she cried---Now the damage's been done and it really doesn't matter if I finish off the last one too!

And she ate it up and licked the plate.

When Uncle Fox got back accompanied by Uncle Tiger from the Forest of Ultimate Reality he asked his wife:

---Did you fry up those river bass, honey-buns?
---I sure did! I've got them set beside the fire so they won't get cold, she lied.
---Well, serve 'em up quick 'cause me an Uncle Tiger are huuuuuuuuungry as anything! Ain't that right, Uncle Tiger?
---Without a doubt, Uncle Fox! I surely am, and with the delighful aroma of fresh fried fish that lingers here!
---I'll set the table then. You sit right here Uncle Tiger, this is your spot!
---Thank you, Aunt Fox!

So, Uncle Tiger sat down and Aunt Fox whispered to Uncle Fox:
---Go out to the patio and sharpen the knife, the bass were a little old and just a wee bit tough!

Uncle Fox ran out to the patio and in a moment heard the sound of the knife being rubbed against the sharpening stone. And Aunt Fox said to Uncle Tiger:
---Do you hear that? It's my husband sharpening the knife. Fact is, he's gone cRaZy and he's obsessed with the idea of cutting off and eating your ears! Uncle Tiger, that is why he invited you to supper, I'm afraid to say! Escape! Escape while you can, before he comes back!

Uncle Tiger got so scared he lept up and made a dash for the door.

Then Aunt Fox began to scream at the top of her voice:
---Uncle Fox! Uncle Fox, come quick! Uncle Tiger has taken the river bass and is making his getaway!

And Uncle Fox with the carving knife in his paw, took off running after Uncle Tiger, pleading:
---Uncle Tiger, Uncle Tiger! Just give me one! Just one!

And Uncle Tiger thinking that Uncle Fox was referring to one of his ears ran even quicker, back to the Forest of Ultimate Reality, and didn't even stop to breathe until he had 'negotiated the Great Barrier' of the front door and locked it with all seven padlocks...
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Re: Tired of Ultimate Realty, On lookout for Something Different

Postby samadhi » Sat Mar 01, 2008 4:02 am

Dan Rowden wrote:<Sam Impersonation>

That's not about US, that's about YOU. You see self-aggrandisement through your own filters.

</impersonation>
Oh puhleeeeze, Dan. This is pretty bad. Just take responsibility for what you wrote, you don't need to hide behind my "skirts", do you?

I would have no problem at all with any other place on the internet engaging in the same discussions using that sort of language about itself. It's partly provocative and partly true; it's partly provocative because it's true.
Trumpeting your "genius" is the best way to mock it. A "genius" should be able to figure that out!

Discussion about the most basic and profound ideas that humans can consider is by its very nature dangerous etc.
Everyone out to get you, Dan? lol

Debating work, for example, fits perfectly well in this descriptive framework. It is the most important, most challenging, most difficult and dangerous stuff people can talk about - and therefore, in my terms, also the most intelligent - because intelligence encompasses much more than mere computational power.
Your self-importance is insufferable.
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Re: Tired of Ultimate Realty, On lookout for Something Different

Postby Alex Jacob » Sat Mar 01, 2008 11:43 pm

Dave, Dan. The best way for us to communicate now is through the Internal Mysteries contained in the Eternal Cycle of Pre-Enlightenment Didactic Stories. Let us allow ourselves to be carried along by the mysterious truths contained therein, and in True Humility let us stand naked before their awesome power! Most everything else, I'm sure you'd agree, seems just babbling...
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Re: Tired of Ultimate Realty, On lookout for Something Diffe

Postby Tomas » Tue Feb 21, 2012 9:28 am

Alex Jacob wrote:"Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away."
---Philip K. Dick

I have been finding this to be true, and I admit it is disconcerting: No matter what I do, no matter how numbed-out I might make myself, and no matter how much I 'tune-in', up to this point the 'nature of reality' that surrounds me, and so terribly drives everything, almost ridiculously senslessly, continues to be precisely the same from day to day. Believing it or not, it doesn't go away.

<>

Maybe its different for you, but for me one of the only things I have to go on is the 'exploding metaphor' and all it connotes, and the promises it sets upon the paths that crisscross 'reality'.

Four years later, what now, Alex?
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Re: Tired of Ultimate Realty, On lookout for Something Diffe

Postby Alex T. Jacob » Tue Feb 21, 2012 9:38 am

Do you think I should pull together more Tio Fox stories and bring back Uncle Tiger from The Forest of Ultimate Reality? Or do you wish clarification about Exploding Metaphors?

You votin' Black or White this election? ;-)
I can't go on. I'll go on.
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