The logic of causal transcendence

Discussion of the nature of Ultimate Reality and the path to Enlightenment.

Re: The logic of causal transcendence

Postby Alex Jacob » Mon Feb 13, 2012 7:48 am

movingalways writes: "No darkness of depression, hopelessness or fear can touch the man who knows this Touch of reconciling Meaning to Source, this Spot of SELF Love. If hunger should come and end this man's physical life, he would experience his hunger and his physical death fully, but would physically die knowing [ascending into] the Touch of Life."
Where do these people hang out? Have you even met one? I've heard of many (maaaaaannnnnyyyy) who make claims like this, but it always seems their feet are of clay. Also, on the basis of such outrageous claims (outrageous because, it seems, impracticable) many strange cults have come into existence, guru-trips, messianism, all sorts of strange stuff.

What is so difficult in admitting conditioned life? As I asked Jufa (essentially) what is the real utility in all these strange backward metaphysical flips when, more honestly, we all seem to live very differently?
Ni ange, ni bête
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Re: The logic of causal transcendence

Postby movingalways » Wed Feb 15, 2012 11:44 pm

Dennis, you did not answer my question about the Buddha, which I have asked you at least three times since we first began communicating, and at no time, just as this time, have you answered it.

Did the Buddha not say that the ending of suffering is the cessation of rebirth?
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Re: The logic of causal transcendence

Postby movingalways » Wed Feb 15, 2012 11:56 pm

Alex, life is eternal and infinite and without a subject-object split [conditioning]. Any consciousness that does not reflect this truth, therefore, is in darkness and ignorance, it that simple. Is conditioned consciousness bad? No, it is, therefore was purposed to be - Ignorance - as it is purposed not to be - Wisdom.
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Re: The logic of causal transcendence

Postby movingalways » Thu Feb 16, 2012 12:36 am

Allow me to add that I do not yet have this consciousness of pure nondual awareness, "it is good and only good", but it is to the attainment of this consciousness that I strive. One might ask, "why bother?", but I cannot see living my life any other way than this. Assumptive logical arguments about the motives of the actions of others, perceived cause and effect of intent, to me, is a hollow, pointless, divisive and ultimately, illusory way to live.
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Re: The logic of causal transcendence

Postby Kunga » Thu Feb 16, 2012 12:54 am

movingalways wrote:Allow me to add that I do not yet have this consciousness of pure nondual awareness, "it is good and only good", but it is to the attainment of this consciousness that I strive.


Maybe if you stopped this striving (grasping), it would just come naturally ?

You don't seem natural to me.
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Re: The logic of causal transcendence

Postby Kunga » Thu Feb 16, 2012 12:58 am

relax
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Re: The logic of causal transcendence

Postby Kunga » Thu Feb 16, 2012 12:59 am

your already there
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Re: The logic of causal transcendence

Postby Kunga » Thu Feb 16, 2012 1:00 am

all of "us" is
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Re: The logic of causal transcendence

Postby Kunga » Thu Feb 16, 2012 1:04 am

like the sun is always shinning....even when it's cloudy...
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Re: The logic of causal transcendence

Postby Kunga » Thu Feb 16, 2012 1:07 am

the clouds will naturally disappear....
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Re: The logic of causal transcendence

Postby Kunga » Thu Feb 16, 2012 1:14 am

i'm still stuck in this rainstorm....but i know it's impermanent...i know what i am...
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Re: The logic of causal transcendence

Postby Kunga » Thu Feb 16, 2012 1:15 am

i'm detoxing....
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Re: The logic of causal transcendence

Postby Dennis Mahar » Thu Feb 16, 2012 1:39 am

Dennis, you did not answer my question about the Buddha, which I have asked you at least three times since we first began communicating, and at no time, just as this time, have you answered it.

Did the Buddha not say that the ending of suffering is the cessation of rebirth?



We did talk about it.
Most of the stuff imputed to Buddha I don't get directly.
Stuff like past lives, karmic seeds, merit etc.. show up to me as theory or 'meaningful story'.
I'm not that advanced.

As far as I know he talked about free of unnecessary rebirths.

Bring it home for me if you can.

How's the road trip going?
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Re: The logic of causal transcendence

Postby movingalways » Thu Feb 16, 2012 6:53 am

Kunga wrote:i'm detoxing....


If you are detoxing, how are you already at the awareness of "it is good and only good?"

I am detoxing also, ergo, I am not done with "it is not good."
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Re: The logic of causal transcendence

Postby movingalways » Thu Feb 16, 2012 7:27 am

Dennis Mahar wrote:
Dennis, you did not answer my question about the Buddha, which I have asked you at least three times since we first began communicating, and at no time, just as this time, have you answered it.

Did the Buddha not say that the ending of suffering is the cessation of rebirth?



We did talk about it.
Most of the stuff imputed to Buddha I don't get directly.
Stuff like past lives, karmic seeds, merit etc.. show up to me as theory or 'meaningful story'.
I'm not that advanced.

As far as I know he talked about free of unnecessary rebirths.

Bring it home for me if you can.

How's the road trip going?


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parinirvana

Which is why there is meaning in awakened consciousness that is not a story [of dualism], and yet, a story exists in order for the dualism [the idea of birth] to end. The story that ends rebirth is the story of awakening to the truth that God or Life or Awareness cannot die, therefore, cannot be born, repentance of one's deluded ways of dual thinking, obedience to one's awakening and repenting, and compassion for oneself and others while walking this path of "detoxing" [thank you Kunga :-)].

It is only by the cessation of the wheel of rebirth, of causal awareness, that truly, one knows the fullness of the Meaning of Emptiness. What this knowing of final nibbana is like, or ascension into heaven is like, I cannot say. No one has returned from "being extinguished" of causes to tell us its story. :-)
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Re: The logic of causal transcendence

Postby movingalways » Thu Feb 16, 2012 7:31 am

The road trip of apparent differences of sight, sound, taste, touch and smell [rebirth of causes] is providing me with excellent practice to rest in awareness of "it is good and only good."
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Re: The logic of causal transcendence

Postby Kunga » Thu Feb 16, 2012 7:35 am

movingalways wrote:
Kunga wrote:i'm detoxing....


If you are detoxing, how are you already at the awareness of "it is good and only good?"

I am detoxing also, ergo, I am not done with "it is not good."



Who said that ? ("It's good and only good")
I'm having a very hard time comprehending all the suffering/horror on this Earth.
Knowing "All is One" is simple.
The hard part is trying to comprehend it.

I can't see how raping a child is "all good".
I can't see how innocent children suffering is "all good".

It sickens me.

But If I was Enlightened....I would see that I am Everything,
and that child isn't that child....it's me.
Well...actually I do know that much....but I'm not totaly Enlightened....
If I was totally Enlightened I wouldn't be differenciating myself & others. (thinking/feeling dualistically)
I would have no comprehension of this individual self.
I would be losing myself completely.
"I" would die.
I'm not 100% there yet.
Maybe 1% there.

But I can see the light blazing forth in others.
I can feel the warmth.
See the truth, feel it, know it through others....the others that are the same as me...my other cells....we are one organism...but like individual cells ? (One way of looking at it ? )
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Re: The logic of causal transcendence

Postby movingalways » Thu Feb 16, 2012 8:32 am

Hi Kunga :-)

Who said that ? ("It's good and only good")


"And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good." Genesis 1:31

"And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? none is good, save one, that is, God." Luke 18:19

I'm having a very hard time comprehending all the suffering/horror on this Earth.
Knowing "All is One" is simple.
The hard part is trying to comprehend it.

Indeed.

I can't see how raping a child is "all good".
I can't see how innocent children suffering is "all good".

It sickens me.

If it didn't, enlightenment [inquiry into the truth of the I AM] would not happen.

But If I was Enlightened....I would see that I am Everything,
and that child isn't that child....it's me.
Well...actually I do know that much....but I'm not totaly Enlightened....
If I was totally Enlightened I wouldn't be differenciating myself & others. (thinking/feeling dualistically)
I would have no comprehension of this individual self.
I would be losing myself completely.
"I" would die.
I'm not 100% there yet.
Maybe 1% there.

You do know, though, that you are detoxing. Awakening, repenting, obedience, compassion..."For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little." Isaiah 28:10

But I can see the light blazing forth in others.
I can feel the warmth.
See the truth, feel it, know it through others....the others that are the same as me...my other cells....we are one organism...but like individual cells ? (One way of looking at it ? )

Every way of looking at truth, feeling truth, knowing truth is good and only good. :-)
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Re: The logic of causal transcendence

Postby Dennis Mahar » Thu Feb 16, 2012 8:44 am

You have to sort out your Absolute.

Who you are being.

Who am I being?
My possibility?

To be or not to be.

Your absolute is always/already available in any situation and abandoning your absolute defeats you and causes suffering for yourself and misery for others.

Worldhood 'fells' you and draws you down into a 'fitting in' mode to get from cradle to grave. It's a handing over of your finest qualities. It's courage forsaken for comfort. It's hiding.

Who are you being?

Am I the possibility of Radiant Mind?
Am I the possibility of Crystal Clear?
Am I the possibility of Logic?
Am I the possibility of Goodness?

Am I the possibility of being 'at cause' and not overwhelmed?

Am I the possibility of Unshakeable Conviction in the possibility that the good in people is contactable and ought to be contacted?

Am I the possibility of Grace/ Light Touch?

Am I the possibility of Listening for the broken algebra that causes the breakdown?

Am I 'on the way'?

Am I the possibility that 'it got sorted' and there's no looking back?

Am I available?

Am I graceful movement in the fullness of peace?

Am I the possibility of showing up as my finest?

Am I the possibility of getting off track and getting back on it?
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Re: The logic of causal transcendence

Postby movingalways » Fri Feb 17, 2012 1:13 am

Dennis, again, you did not acknowledge the words of the Buddha with regards to the idea of rebirth. I provided the "summary" from wiki: "In Buddhism, parinirvana (Sanskrit: परिनिर्वाण parinirvāṇa; Pali: परिनिब्बान parinibbāna; Chinese: 般涅槃, bō niè pán) is the final nirvana, which occurs upon the death of the body of someone who has attained complete awakening (bodhi). It implies a release from the bhavachakra, Saṃsāra, karma and rebirth as well as the dissolution of the skandhas."

The parinirvana sutra in its entirety:

http://www.abuddhistlibrary.com/Buddhis ... 0Sutra.htm

Please note that in the Parinirvana sutra that the Buddha speaks of a limitless body for the one who has overcome birth and death, which is the true realization of one's infinite nature. One cannot practice logic or intuition or any human faculty of the earth [birth and death] if their goal is to be fully realized of their infinite SELF. All these limited things must be transcended if movement without "thinking about things" is to be known.

You have to sort out your Absolute.

No, as the source, your absolute sorts you [IT] out.

Your absolute is always/already available in any situation and abandoning your absolute defeats you and causes suffering for yourself and misery for others.


You cannot abandon your absolute, for as you say, it is always there. It can, as you, however, be ignorant of its [own] reality.

Worldhood 'fells' you and draws you down into a 'fitting in' mode to get from cradle to grave. It's a handing over of your finest qualities. It's courage forsaken for comfort. It's hiding.

Who are you being?

Am I the possibility of Radiant Mind?
Am I the possibility of Crystal Clear?
Am I the possibility of Logic?
Am I the possibility of Goodness?

Am I the possibility of being 'at cause' and not overwhelmed?


Man cannot be overwhelmed at the Unseen, Unknown Cause because thoughts are his life. No man can say what Source is absolutely objectively, using his sentient mind, but every man can interpret what Source means to him using his spiritual mind. There is no other way to transcend one's limited, causal body so as to realize one's limitless body, except to give his 'walk of' earthly-caused transcendence life.

Am I the possibility of Unshakeable Conviction in the possibility that the good in people is contactable and ought to be contacted?

Am I the possibility of Grace/ Light Touch?

Am I the possibility of Listening for the broken algebra that causes the breakdown?

Am I 'on the way'?

Am I the possibility that 'it got sorted' and there's no looking back?

Am I available?

Am I graceful movement in the fullness of peace?

Am I the possibility of showing up as my finest?

Am I the possibility of getting off track and getting back on it?


These are beneficial questions to ask when one is caught up in their human mind of seeking an imaginary starting point of consciousness, a cause, but to the one who loves the infinity, the absolute of themselves, the concept of possibility and cause is thrown away.

Ego consciousness stretches out to the farthest region of hell, which is to ignorantly take and possess and maim and kill that which it already is, infinite form. This is the rapist of which Kunga spoke. Such an act is ignorance personified, unawakened movement of I AM. Wisdom consciousness [the Christ, Buddhahood] reconciles this stretching outward back to its Source, the "detoxing of humanism."
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Re: The logic of causal transcendence

Postby Dennis Mahar » Fri Feb 17, 2012 6:44 am

A clear distinction must be drawn between the mind that conceives of an 'I',
and the 'I' that such a mind grasps.

The false, big move is the belief that the 'I' the mind is grasping has inherent existence.
It is empty of inherent existence.

Jufa has drawn this distinction when he says you can't be hurt unless you allow it.

In the absolute sense, one is identityless.
In the world, one is assigned characteristics, properties, functions.
One is 'painted' with adjectives and adverbs.
Pigeon-holed.
Made a 'bit player' in someone else's game plan.
Regarded as equipment by a gamer trying to get an 'eat the world' scenario running.
Tagged as useful or unfit.

Nevertheless existence persists.

Rather than being that which the world conceptually designates you as.
What opens up in the realisation of 'personal identitylessness' are possibilities for being.

Realising non-duality is the realisation that a belief in a personal identity is a warp in reality.

Nevertheless existence persists.

A Zen Master, for instance, knows the possible moves, the possibilities for being.
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Re: The logic of causal transcendence

Postby movingalways » Sat Feb 18, 2012 12:44 am

Dennis, I have provided the link to the words attributed to the Buddha regarding the cessation of rebirth or sentience as final nirvana if you care to read them.

Realising non-duality is the realisation that a belief in a personal identity is a warp in reality.


My interpretation of nonduality goes deeper than the transcendence of the suffering of the personal "I", into the heart of the consciousness of the suffering of sentience itself. Suffering one's awareness of flesh and what must be done in order to sustain this awareness is, to me, the subtlest and therefore, the purest form of duality. The natural law is ordered, to be sure, but at its heart, it is an ordered law of "an eye for an eye."

Spirit consciousness, which I have not yet attained but of which I am aware, is non-sentient, therefore, free of suffering, even the holy suffering of compassion for those yet remaining within the principles and patterns of the natural law. It is true that God, the Absolute provides for every sentient/natural need, but what is also true is that before the provision comes, the need is present. Why this need is present, to me, is the ultimate SELF inquiry. What I have discovered is that I cannot know the cause, the why, of sentience and of its necessity of hunger, thirst and sense of aloneness. Which leaves me therefore to accept wholly its truth of NOW, ergo my compassion, but not to accept wholly that it is the one and only law, principle and pattern of the infinite and eternal law of the spirit of Life.

Jufa has drawn this distinction when he says you can't be hurt unless you allow it.


Why are you quoting jufa to me? While we are conversing, I only care about your thoughts on harm.
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Re: The logic of causal transcendence

Postby Dennis Mahar » Sat Feb 18, 2012 3:56 am

Pam,
You are loud and clear,
and I'm clear you have a possibility for being.
Touching.

all things exist as dependently related events.

You got here,
can you rewind the postulate?
you made a move,
what did you trust?
what did you expect?
Is there a failed purpose?

existence doesn't define itself.
you do.
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Re: The logic of causal transcendence

Postby movingalways » Sun Feb 19, 2012 2:03 am

Dennis the only thing you said that is also true for me and to me is that we define existence. How you define and how I define it, however, are very different. This is to be expected from any two 'souls', however, there is amongst souls, a common understanding of direction of definition. Where you understand the spirit of definition to be moving or expanding deeper or higher into its mental manipulation of sentience, I understand the spirit of definition to be finished with its, as I see it, limited love affair with interpretation/projection of ITSELF into shapes, colours, smells and tastes.

In my Father's house there are many mansions. I am done with the mansion of "possibility."
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Re: The logic of causal transcendence

Postby Dennis Mahar » Sun Feb 19, 2012 2:35 am

Spirit consciousness, which I have not yet attained


It's not there yet.

you're talking about
no body and no mind,
formless,
is that it?

return to sender.

Body is Universe.
Mental is thoughts about Universe and existence, pondering.
Spirit or Spiritual, or of Spirit is being..absolute, not finite, no thing.

None separate.

One can bring one's absoluteness to bear on the body/ mind.

absolutes like freedom, peace, detachment, compassion, mental clarity, unshakeable conviction, no nonsense.

always/already available.
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