I rather stress the importance of definition, the value of values, the importance of defining a base.
Alex Jacob wrote:I suggest that this is the only way to get around that hard, resistant structure. True, it will likely only work in 15%-20% of the cases who come through here.
I suggest the figure is closer to 2 to 5%. And there's no guarantee that it will 'work' in them either. Since, due to an inherent flaw in the human evolutionary process, man 'everywhere' is by and large irreparably locked in a mental-rational structure of consciousness rather than functioning in the rare and ideal arational-aperspectival structure of consciousness.
Dennis Mahar wrote:By saying that Bob aren't you yourself conceptually designating.
locked into a mental-rational structure of consciousness.
You are condemning a person for holding a fish with the holding of a fish yourself.
Alex Jacob wrote:You only hear 'arrogance', Kunga (when you might as easily hear humor, or good-natured laughter) because these ideas are hard for you to hear.
Alex Jacob wrote:Then, you turn it to mean that I am against those who work, etc. But the real issue with all of that is with those who define. We live in a worl run by those who define.
Alex Jacob wrote:I suggest that you have very little (clear) idea what 'waking up' is (or isn't). If you knew about 'it' you're writing would be different.
Dennis Mahar wrote:Absolutely there is nothing wrong Bob.
Conventionally there is ignorance and suffering.
Being a long time member of Alanon and understanding the alcoholic to some extent.
I, without casting aspersion on you, dare to assert your alienation from your sons is caused by the massive damage the alcoholism wrought upon their early years as children.
Have you made amends?
Have their resentments been handled?
It doesn't work taking a defensive position by slagging them off.
Have you compassion for their experience?
Dennis Mahar wrote:Thanks for that Bob.
I'm not clear on these distinctions you use:
the universal mental-rational structure or state of consciousness, as was the case with myself.
result of them having an arational-aperspectival structure of consciousness while having
The 12 steps is a rational response to addiction.
It is of sound Reasoning.
It's reasoning discloses all problems are caused by self-centeredness.
You are released from suffering through perfect comprehension of a step by step track of reasoning.
A track of reasoning hard fought for and hard won arising out of an astonishing degree of ignorance and suffering.
How can you discount Reasoning?
movingalways wrote:Bob, is arational and aperspective consciousness the same as spiritual consciousness?
Reason/reasoning? A good rational or reasoning mind is necessary if one is to ever attain to enlightenment. But if one is to ever attain to enlightenment he must come to see the limitations of his reasoning mind and then go beyond it. This 'jumping off point' has often been referred to as a 'leap of faith'. I generally refer to it as a total shift in the manner in which the brain is functioning. After which one's brain and total being begin to function in an intuitively all-knowing, all-understanding, and all-harmoniously corresponding manner with life everywhere.
I think it is important to say (having done a little bit of looking into the question) that the AA program is a direct expression of Christian spiritualism, and by that I mean the notion of 'the Holy Spirit' as a sort of incomprehensible spiritual presence, something that acts on persons and in them. I have read that the program developed very directly from a faith-based (Protestant and Evangelical) Christianity, and took a great deal from Corinthians 13 and also the Book of James.Bob Wrote: "The 12 Steps as they were initially and inspirationally written were a 'spiritual' (not rational) path to recovery from alcoholism. Or more correctly they were a spiritual path to enlightenment, which was the state of mind, body, and spirit that Bill Wilson was in at the time he drafted them. Which took place after his having experienced a revolutionary shift in consciousness that he referred to as his 'white light' or 'hot flash' experience. Which initially he understood in religious (God) terms, though later on he questioned this event and was more in favor of a scientific explanation of it. But as time went on he fell from 'grace' (the pure enlightened state) due to the fact that he failed to continue to completely and ongoingly give himself to his very own 'program of recovery' (the 11th step being the one that even the best of souls fail to continually give or surrender their lives to). Not to mention his failure to venture further down into the abyss. Which I find has happened to many, many enlightened men. It has happened often to myself after having most definitely experienced the state of enlightenment. Anyhow to get on with the point here, fellowship-wise, as time went on, Bill's 12 steps became a rational, legalistic, or psychological path of recovery rather than a spiritual or deeply transformational and soul-searching one. This was aided by the fact that the vital need for a revolutionary spiritual experience, rebirth, or shift of consciousness was thrown out the window, so to speak, very shortly after it all began. Primarily because it (the radical rebirth) and its importance was not clearly understood at that time. So today, while A. A. (along with its many sister fellowships) may have some success and value in freeing people from their addictions, spiritually or enlightenment-wise, it's become but another one of the many, many dead spiritual organizations, as is the same case with all the religions. I could offer some more quite negative (though truthful) observations of alcoholism, A. A., and organized religions, but I won't. Though I will say that the professional addiction recovery industry and the legal system (of course along with the constant moral and spiritual deterioration of the human species in general) have rendered A. A. totally dead so far as it ever being what it orginally set out to be. Which was a launch pad to a "new freedom and a new happiness", contrariwise to the ineffective support group or crutch (hold your tongue here Bob) it has near-totally become."
Debating the Buddhist concept of sunyata is a dead-end road.
I think it is important to say (having done a little bit of looking into the question) that the AA program is a direct expression of Christian spiritualism,
movingalways wrote:Rea, the ends of the earth are my earth ends to tie up and give back to Spirit. Conversing about this journey of reconciliation of this eternality of illusory beginnings and endings to "Father" Consciousness is, as "His" "Son" is my joyful duty; you are most welcome to enter my word-world of obedience and love at any time!
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