"I am" my reason

Discussion of the nature of Ultimate Reality and the path to Enlightenment.

Re: "I am" my reason

Postby alice144 » Sun Dec 18, 2011 4:34 am

That's what I said.
conditional.
self-serving.

Yeah, but when they hurt me they are considering their own self-interest to the detriment of my own. When this imbalance goes too far, I no longer want to continue the relationship. Perhaps they are not spiritual enough beings, as yourselves. Perhaps I simply don't like pain. So yes, I can be self-serving, but only in recognizing that those around me are self serving, or even more self-serving. Or even significantly more self-serving.

moving always wrote:Loving your friends in the manner with which you do now is a good starting point, but if you desire, as I desire, to love from your awareness of your creation where A = A, then your love will have to expand beyond your self-centred world.

Isn't this agape? Or do I not know my greek terms.

I argue that it is difficult to leave my self-centered world entirely as I am lodged pretty firmly inside a self.

I think that this is what you said earlier, though. Someone said this earlier.

Also. Has anyone actually tried to put this kind of love into practice? My experience is that one is viewed as naive.

And yet, young children seem to respond so well to it, which leads me to believe that this concept is more firmly grounded in the human psyche than would first appear.

Denis Mahar wrote:It means 'lacks inherent existence'.

Then another parakeet will distract you from the internal, gaping void of meaninglessness.

Denis Mahar wrote:Suffering produces the pearl.

Actually, I'm pretty sure suffering is just suffering.

Stop trying to find patterns in things when they don't exist. :(
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Re: "I am" my reason

Postby Dennis Mahar » Sun Dec 18, 2011 5:27 am

Stop trying to find patterns in things when they don't exist. :(


That is your recommended pattern is it?

Actually, I'm pretty sure suffering is just suffering.


That is what something can be done about.

Then another parakeet will distract you from the internal, gaping void of meaninglessness.


empty means lack of inherent existence.
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Re: "I am" my reason

Postby alice144 » Sun Dec 18, 2011 6:08 am

Denis Mahar wrote:That is your recommended pattern is it?

More an observation.

Denis Mahar wrote:That is what something can be done about.

I think that assigning meaning to something which is essentially meaningless will only leave you frustrated. Especially the more far-flung and varied your experience becomes; you've got to come up with more creative explanations. But I'd like to hear what you've got to say.

Denis Mahar wrote:empty means lack of inherent existence.

Okay. What do you want me to say about this? I believe that there is consistency. Anyhow, it's like movingalways said, the more you focus on the immediate present, the eternal state of change becomes less relevant, because it is relatively, slower. It doesn't matter that some people's definitions of "faith" are logically incoherent, the important thing, imo, is that they believe in them, and find them personally coherent. Or lack the reasoning ability to find the flaws therein.

I can't understand why this is so troubling to you. Things have always changed. Change is constant. However, unless your parakeet's death has marred your ability to find pleasure in animal companionship, I still hold that you will find happiness in replacing your dead parakeet.

Denis Mahar wrote:faith looks like equipment failure,
abrogation of responsibility,
waiting at the bus stop.

The belief that you control your own destiny is an illusion.
You control some things. But mostly nothing.
Accepting this negates a whole lot of anxiety.
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Re: "I am" my reason

Postby Dennis Mahar » Sun Dec 18, 2011 6:45 am

More an observation.


Quit lying please.
You recommended a pattern to stop looking for patterns on the basis patterns don't exist.
Illogical.
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Re: "I am" my reason

Postby Dennis Mahar » Sun Dec 18, 2011 8:36 am

'it's empty and meaningless'

targets primarily Human Identities.
identities such as religion, race, political, national, separate self.

These identities are conventionally 'true' or believed in. 'True', as in people agree to them between each other. Consensual. Habitual.
human being systematically conducts Wars and all sorts of atrocities in the name of these Identities.

Genius, being a mode of reasoning,
examines these identities,
and discloses the 'truth' of them.
They are empty of inherent existence (conditional).
They have no 'truth' to them.
They are fiction. Stories.
No real significance, hence meaningless.
They are trouble makers. A cause of suffering.
Genius, being a mode of reasoning can, by targeting appearances and disclosing the 'truth' of them, make giant strides in alleviating suffering.
Enlightenment means relatively free of suffering,
or
bringing 'light' to the situation we are in by way of intelligent reasoning.
or
'truth' disclosed.

It's easy to draw a distinction concerning existence.
2 Truths.
Conventional reality (belief in appearance, delusion)
Ultimate reality (dissolution of delusion)

The proper application of faith,
is,
faith in reason.

Reason gets the job done.
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Re: "I am" my reason

Postby mental vagrant » Mon Dec 19, 2011 2:33 pm

movingalways wrote:
Possibly then the purpose of the effort is not to create a more whole self, but then to share our own very, extremely whole selves. From the bounty of our inner wholeness, we want to make other people feel whole as well. It's a generosity which stems from our own inner peace, happiness, and strength.


Wisdom tells us that we are whole already. Why? Because consciousness, your consciousness, is undivided. It can't, in truth, be anything but already whole, perfect, complete and pure. And yet, here you are, as are most, speaking of creating a whole self.

Wisdom also tells us that we are not creators, but interpreters. This is a very important insight, because it causes us to realize that as interpreters, we have the ability to change our mind. Change from what to what? That is an individual journey, but since you are speaking of love, is not love in its purest form not the love that knows of consciousness as being whole now? And that not only is your consciousness already whole, but that the consciousness of everyone you come in contact with is also already whole. To see in this way is to see as God would see if God were human.

I don't know how much of this board you have read, but the formula A = A is bandied about frequently. To me, A = A is what it is like inside "God's Mind": every form is equal to every other form, which means every conscious being is equal to every other conscious being. Since creation [God] dis not a person, but infinite, non-dual, [A = A] impersonal laws, principles and patterns upon which "its" spirit moves, creation does not love, but as sentient beings, loving one another unconditionally is as close as we can come to being as creation is in this dual sentient world of human interpretation.

Loving your friends in the manner with which you do now is a good starting point, but if you desire, as I desire, to love from your awareness of your creation where A = A, then your love will have to expand beyond your self-centred world.


Anhialating this illusion would be godliness?
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Re: "I am" my reason

Postby movingalways » Sat Dec 24, 2011 12:07 am

Dennis: faith looks like equipment failure,
abrogation of responsibility,
waiting at the bus stop.

reason looks like 'getting the job done'.


Surely you are not saying you reason 'jobs that need doing' every moment of your waking life. If not, then upon 'what' do you rest your head when reason is not required?
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Re: "I am" my reason

Postby movingalways » Sat Dec 24, 2011 1:37 am

mental vagrant wrote:
movingalways wrote:
Possibly then the purpose of the effort is not to create a more whole self, but then to share our own very, extremely whole selves. From the bounty of our inner wholeness, we want to make other people feel whole as well. It's a generosity which stems from our own inner peace, happiness, and strength.


Wisdom tells us that we are whole already. Why? Because consciousness, your consciousness, is undivided. It can't, in truth, be anything but already whole, perfect, complete and pure. And yet, here you are, as are most, speaking of creating a whole self.

Wisdom also tells us that we are not creators, but interpreters. This is a very important insight, because it causes us to realize that as interpreters, we have the ability to change our mind. Change from what to what? That is an individual journey, but since you are speaking of love, is not love in its purest form not the love that knows of consciousness as being whole now? And that not only is your consciousness already whole, but that the consciousness of everyone you come in contact with is also already whole. To see in this way is to see as God would see if God were human.

I don't know how much of this board you have read, but the formula A = A is bandied about frequently. To me, A = A is what it is like inside "God's Mind": every form is equal to every other form, which means every conscious being is equal to every other conscious being. Since creation [God] dis not a person, but infinite, non-dual, [A = A] impersonal laws, principles and patterns upon which "its" spirit moves, creation does not love, but as sentient beings, loving one another unconditionally is as close as we can come to being as creation is in this dual sentient world of human interpretation.

Loving your friends in the manner with which you do now is a good starting point, but if you desire, as I desire, to love from your awareness of your creation where A = A, then your love will have to expand beyond your self-centred world.


Anhialating this illusion would be godliness?



What is your definition/analysis of "godliness?"
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Re: "I am" my reason

Postby alice144 » Sat Dec 24, 2011 6:01 am

Dennis Mahar wrote:Quit lying please.
You recommended a pattern to stop looking for patterns on the basis patterns don't exist.
Illogical.


Lol. Yes, that was exactly what I meant.
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Re: "I am" my reason

Postby alice144 » Sat Dec 24, 2011 6:14 am

Dennis Mahar wrote:These identities are conventionally 'true' or believed in. 'True', as in people agree to them between each other. Consensual. Habitual.

I doubt it. In the same way that others foist identities on me, I foist identities upon them. I do it sometimes just to be an asshole. Of course it's generally entirely retaliatory; if I suspect that they are a nice, intelligent and reasonable person, I'll be courteous as well.

Other people don't define me. I define myself. Sorry.


Genius, being a mode of reasoning can, by targeting appearances and disclosing the 'truth' of them, make giant strides in alleviating suffering.

Sorry, that's a little too vague. What is suffering anyhow? Physical pain? Emotional pain? Existential depression?

My experience with reason and stupid people is this: people are irrational, and meaningless displays of violence are much more to the point.

Whether or not I am cognizent of your ultimate reality, who cares. Does it make me any happier? I'm not sure that recognition of such does us any favors.
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Re: "I am" my reason

Postby Dennis Mahar » Sat Dec 24, 2011 12:06 pm

What is suffering anyhow?


You attribute qualities (identities) to your friends as if they were fixed entities.
In that way they appear solid. They have 'reality' to you. It becomes an immersion in 'taken for granted'.

As time progresses or change manifests because of impermanence,
a friend will say or act out an instance that contradicts the identity you have 'put on' that friend.
Your 'assumed reality' breaks down,
You experience suffering or loss.

You will then construct that friend with another set of names,
probably 'not a friend'...'not to be trusted'...'bad person'...'drunk'...'acidhead'...'pretty much lost'.

shit like that gets made up and broadcast about.
It's merely ignorance.
like Pam disclosed a while back,
that reaction discloses the personhood of that person as a personhood struggling to stay in the game and that recovery involves withdrawing projections.

This does not mean 'don't have friends'.
It has everything to do with meaning making.
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Re: "I am" my reason

Postby movingalways » Sun Dec 25, 2011 12:12 am

Dennis, you didn't answer my question about what thoughts you rest your head upon when you are not reasoning; I am taking it upon myself to expand on my own question because it is related to what you said to alice about the making of meaning. Going to the core of every thought and making one's meaning from that invisible point of departure is an entirely different experience of thinking than making one's meaning from the point of departure of observed, visible causes.

There is a foundation that gives rise to every thought and upon which every thought returns. I posit that without an interpretation of what this foundation of every thought, logical or emotional, means to oneself, that one cannot live a life of conscious integrity. And whether one admits it or not, that if this interpretation of their thinking foundation does not include the element of heart, that they are denying the fact that they are yet of the elements of the earth, and being of such, are yet subjected to the feeling sense.
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Re: "I am" my reason

Postby Dennis Mahar » Sun Dec 25, 2011 1:27 am

I think what you're trying to say there Pam is the centering experience I know as 'home base'.
Not 'my' home base'.
Not 'your home base'.
Not a home base borrowed from the culture.

The 'home base'.
One can get stuck out there on second and third base if you know what I mean.
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Re: "I am" my reason

Postby movingalways » Sun Dec 25, 2011 2:22 am

Dennis Mahar wrote:I think what you're trying to say there Pam is the centering experience I know as 'home base'.
Not 'my' home base'.
Not 'your home base'.
Not a home base borrowed from the culture.

The 'home base'.
One can get stuck out there on second and third base if you know what I mean.


Someone once said that baseball was the perfect metaphor for life! Yes, a home base not borrowed from the culture. Although, to be true to the integrity of the invisibility of the home base, where words are yet unspoken, every word that is spoken is 'borrowed' from first base. This reality of relative thinking in one's sentient world is inescapable. It is finding just the right word or series of borrowed words that most closely suggest the essence of one's 'knowing' of their unborrowed world that forms a foundation upon which one can rest, and move and 'have their being.'

To me, the living of one's borrowed Word that means [suggests] one's unborrowed World is true genius.
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Re: "I am" my reason

Postby movingalways » Sun Dec 25, 2011 2:49 am

I return, as always, to my question of everyone who says they are seeking for or are living from, their home base: what is your metaphor for this unknown God or Maker of your awareness? If you cannot give me that, then you are not giving me the integrity of you, you are giving me your opinion of you.
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Re: "I am" my reason

Postby Dennis Mahar » Sun Dec 25, 2011 3:24 am

possibility of form.
coming from nothing.
astonishing.

I'm at home in the question.
The Inquiry.
picking up the errors.
getting it sorted.
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Re: "I am" my reason

Postby Spot » Sun Dec 25, 2011 7:11 am

Dennis Mahar wrote:possibility of form.
coming from nothing.
astonishing.

How can something come from nothing?
Only you understand
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Re: "I am" my reason

Postby Spot » Sun Dec 25, 2011 7:16 am

movingalways wrote:I return, as always, to my question of everyone who says they are seeking for or are living from, their home base: what is your metaphor for this unknown God or Maker of your awareness? If you cannot give me that, then you are not giving me the integrity of you, you are giving me your opinion of you.

I have not yet discovered the unknown God or Maker of my awareness. I'm interested in knowing your answer for your question.
Only you understand
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Re: "I am" my reason

Postby Dennis Mahar » Sun Dec 25, 2011 8:16 am

nothing is no thing,
things are that which something can be said about them,
nothing can be said about no thing.
We, along with everything that can be spoken of exist on this side but not from our own side.
can something come from nothing?
they belong together.
Totality.

What we can come to terms with is suffering and its causes.
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Re: "I am" my reason

Postby movingalways » Sun Dec 25, 2011 10:04 am

Spot wrote:
movingalways wrote:I return, as always, to my question of everyone who says they are seeking for or are living from, their home base: what is your metaphor for this unknown God or Maker of your awareness? If you cannot give me that, then you are not giving me the integrity of you, you are giving me your opinion of you.

I have not yet discovered the unknown God or Maker of my awareness. I'm interested in knowing your answer for your question.


Hi Spot, welcome to Genius Forum. I have discovered my God of silent, unconditioned wholeness. The metaphysical metaphor I use for this silent, unconditioned wholeness is the law of the Spirit of life, or if I am being moved by the spirit of the earth, of love, my metaphor of preference is "Father" or "Beloved." The metaphor I use in my role as interpreter of God as silent, unconditioned wholeness is as Its/His "compassionate one" or Its/His "merciful one", Its/His beloved Son that reconciles Its/His conditioned consciousness unto Its/His unconditioned consciousness.
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Re: "I am" my reason

Postby Blair » Sun Dec 25, 2011 11:21 am

alice144 wrote:Other people don't define me. I define myself. Sorry.


You are using the English language, the internet and a specific forum to state you are defined by yourself?
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Re: "I am" my reason

Postby cousinbasil » Mon Dec 26, 2011 5:10 am

Blair wrote:
alice144 wrote:Other people don't define me. I define myself. Sorry.


You are using the English language, the internet and a specific forum to state you are defined by yourself?

Makes me glad you were unbanned, Princey - this one cracked me up.
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Re: "I am" my reason

Postby Spot » Tue Dec 27, 2011 8:52 am

Dennis Mahar wrote:nothing is no thing,
things are that which something can be said about them,
nothing can be said about no thing.
We, along with everything that can be spoken of exist on this side but not from our own side.
can something come from nothing?
they belong together.
Totality.

What we can come to terms with is suffering and its causes.

Hm interesting point. If something and another belong together does that mean one comes from the other? Or is it possible to have things that belong together without either coming from the other?
Only you understand
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Re: "I am" my reason

Postby Spot » Tue Dec 27, 2011 9:01 am

movingalways wrote:Hi Spot, welcome to Genius Forum. I have discovered my God of silent, unconditioned wholeness. The metaphysical metaphor I use for this silent, unconditioned wholeness is the law of the Spirit of life, or if I am being moved by the spirit of the earth, of love, my metaphor of preference is "Father" or "Beloved." The metaphor I use in my role as interpreter of God as silent, unconditioned wholeness is as Its/His "compassionate one" or Its/His "merciful one", Its/His beloved Son that reconciles Its/His conditioned consciousness unto Its/His unconditioned consciousness.

Thank you :) - Is your God a personal God?
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Re: "I am" my reason

Postby movingalways » Tue Dec 27, 2011 12:41 pm

My God is not a person, but my God is my God. BTW, I like your signature :-)
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