"I am" my reason

Discussion of the nature of Ultimate Reality and the path to Enlightenment.

Re: "I am" my reason

Postby movingalways » Tue Dec 13, 2011 8:05 am

So,
we've reasoned from experience concerning existence and defeated nihilism.


If by the common acceptance of what nihilism means [from wiki: "Most commonly, nihilism is presented in the form of existential nihilism which argues that life is without objective meaning, purpose, or intrinsic value."], yes.

I experienced a nihilistic period, and believe it is beneficial to go this far into the concept of negation, as it is beneficial to explore all aspects of thought. Once you know you can be aware of "pure objectivity", A = A, but you cannot live It while you remain sentient, you let go of the tension within and live as closely to the purity of A = A as is possible.


4 possibilities.

It is sweet not sour (unwise)
It is sour not sweet (nihilism/unwise)
It is both sweet and sour (Tao/ some wisdom)
It is neither sweet/ sour (ultimately/sage)


"Feels" right. :-)
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Re: "I am" my reason

Postby mental vagrant » Tue Dec 13, 2011 11:01 am

movingalways wrote:
So,
we've reasoned from experience concerning existence and defeated nihilism.


If by the common acceptance of what nihilism means [from wiki: "Most commonly, nihilism is presented in the form of existential nihilism which argues that life is without objective meaning, purpose, or intrinsic value."], yes.

I experienced a nihilistic period, and believe it is beneficial to go this far into the concept of negation, as it is beneficial to explore all aspects of thought. Once you know you can be aware of "pure objectivity", A = A, but you cannot live It while you remain sentient, you let go of the tension within and live as closely to the purity of A = A as is possible.


4 possibilities.

It is sweet not sour (unwise)
It is sour not sweet (nihilism/unwise)
It is both sweet and sour (Tao/ some wisdom)
It is neither sweet/ sour (ultimately/sage)


"Feels" right. :-)


Perhaps you'd write a blog, would Dan facilitate?

We are destined to nothing but our lonesome rants anyway.
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Re: "I am" my reason

Postby Blair » Tue Dec 13, 2011 12:37 pm

movingalways wrote:I too, enjoy relative existence. I enjoy my husband, my children, my sisters, my brother, my friends, my dog, my cat, wine....the only difference between my enjoyment now and my enjoyment ten years ago, is that I see this enjoyment from a 'higher' perspective, which has allowed me to cease judging my relative existence according to my old human "they say" values.


You mean you want to have your cake and eat it too.
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Re: "I am" my reason

Postby movingalways » Tue Dec 13, 2011 1:27 pm

Blair, it is not that I want to have my cake and eat it too, it is that I am my cake and I am That which eats it too.

Do you not enjoy the people in your life, simply because they exist, as you exist? Are you not in the world even though you may not be of the world?
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Re: "I am" my reason

Postby movingalways » Tue Dec 13, 2011 1:28 pm

We are destined to nothing but our lonesome rants anyway.


Why?
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Re: "I am" my reason

Postby Blair » Tue Dec 13, 2011 3:08 pm

movingalways wrote:Do you not enjoy the people in your life, simply because they exist, as you exist?


Funnily enough, No. I outgrew that when I was about nine years old...
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Re: "I am" my reason

Postby movingalways » Tue Dec 13, 2011 11:34 pm

Blair wrote:
movingalways wrote:Do you not enjoy the people in your life, simply because they exist, as you exist?


Funnily enough, No. I outgrew that when I was about nine years old...


Saying that without giving me the reason why tells me nothing.
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Re: "I am" my reason

Postby movingalways » Tue Dec 13, 2011 11:45 pm

Blair, how do you define your resting state when you are not reasoning your awareness?
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Re: "I am" my reason

Postby jufa » Wed Dec 14, 2011 1:33 am

Blair wrote:
movingalways wrote:Do you not enjoy the people in your life, simply because they exist, as you exist?


Funnily enough, No. I outgrew that when I was about nine years old...


If you outgrew it, how then do you remember when it happened?

Never give power to anything a person believes is their source of strength - jufa
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Re: "I am" my reason

Postby alice144 » Fri Dec 16, 2011 10:29 am

Dennis Mahar wrote:
hi alice, welcome.
you're missing the point.


Maybe, maybe not.

People are discussing reasons for existence. It's quite possible that there is no reason for existence. It's also quite possible that we create our own reason for existence; that our reasons for existence are entirely subjective.

It's my feeling of being connected in this life that help me feel that it's not all in vain. It's knowing that I did something or thought something and it was able to mean something for someone else.

In the thread which I believe is the precursor to this one, people were discussing topics such as sex, emotion, logic, and out of body experiences. Movingalways said something like this:

moving always wrote:What I observe of most logical thinkers that take logic as far as the wisdom of the wholeness of the individual mind is that they do not take the next logical step which is to acknowledge that since the thinking mind is sex/DNA dependent, that if sex is relinquished so that individual wholeness is to be realized, the logical outcome is that the thinking mind itself would become extinct. Very few individuals want to take wisdom to this extreme for obvious reasons.


Working from this, I would deduce that coming into a more whole spirtitual existence requires the abandonment of logical thought. Why apply logic to where it cannot possibly create any sense? I imagine that the reference to "coming up with nothing" at the beginning of the thread have to do with logic's inability to come to any conclusion about such universal, existential questions such as, "what is the meaning of life?". It's my belief that in order to find the answer to these questions one perhaps has to take another route. For myself, human connection has been particularly satistfying. However, a lot of people suck, and will eventually let you down. Fortunately, most people have something commonly known as "faith", which is hard to describe, but I think has to do with a trust that, despite the apparent randomness of external circumstances, there is some kind of unifying reason behind everything, because, somehow, no matter how bad things get, everything always seems to work out in the end. Or like, even if it doesn't work out, it's not really that big of a deal, and you can find something else. I believe that this is what movingalways refers to when she writes:

movingalways wrote:To me, one becomes "enlightened" when one finds their individual resting point of Self reasoning which to me, is to know the reason why one exists and to live of this reasoning.


I know what she means, but I don't know how to describe it. Probably she described it far better than I. Having "faith" and "being your own reason" come out to the same thing, in my opinion. I feel like it feels the same. Does that make any sense?

Look -- love makes me feel good. And, better yet, it's mutually beneficial. Human relationships are by nature flawed, but I always feel better when I have good people around me. I stop questioning so much. To me, it's a reason in itself.

Denis Mahar wrote:emptiness is 'how things exist'.


I'm so sorry.
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Re: "I am" my reason

Postby movingalways » Fri Dec 16, 2011 1:33 pm

movingalways wrote:
To me, one becomes "enlightened" when one finds their individual resting point of Self reasoning which to me, is to know the reason why one exists and to live of this reasoning.


alice144: I know what she means, but I don't know how to describe it. Probably she described it far better than I. Having "faith" and "being your own reason" come out to the same thing, in my opinion. I feel like it feels the same. Does that make any sense?


It makes sense to me. Living the truth that consciousness is undivided, therefore no beginning cause can be found is indeed to live purely by faith, on faith and of faith. However, until this faith is trusted unconditionally, even beyond "being your own reason," dissolving [imaginary] causes is the way of enlightenment.

As for love feeling good and you always feeling better when you have good people around you, these are valid feelings. But for most here, myself included, the dualism of "feeling better" is what doesn't make sense. How is it that if our nature is undivided consciousness [we are whole] that we even become aware of something called "better?" How can that which is [already] whole be a "better" [or worse] whole?

As an aside, I enjoyed your metaphorical penis comment. :- )
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Re: "I am" my reason

Postby Dennis Mahar » Fri Dec 16, 2011 2:12 pm

I'm so sorry.


emptiness means 'lacks inherent existence'.
it doesn't mean what you think it means.
totally misunderstood.

Also,
you love your friends as long as they speak and act in the manner which you desire them to.
if they don't,
pfft! love goes.
your love is conditional.
quit lying.
You can't even be 100% certain your friends exist.
Not in the way you can be 100% certain 'I exist'.
They are, he is, she is shakes down to an opinion and opinions change.
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Re: "I am" my reason

Postby Dennis Mahar » Fri Dec 16, 2011 2:21 pm

Source ( God/Tao/Whatever) is inferred.
No names can be ascribed to it.
No reasons can be attributed to it.
It's unknown.

Faith has nothing to do with anything.
Faith is wishin' and hopin' for your personal preferences to be catered for.
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Re: "I am" my reason

Postby alice144 » Fri Dec 16, 2011 4:45 pm

Dennis Mahar wrote:totally misunderstood.


I understand that you may need another parakeet.
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Re: "I am" my reason

Postby alice144 » Fri Dec 16, 2011 5:01 pm

movingalways wrote:How can that which is [already] whole be a "better" [or worse] whole?

Possibly then the purpose of the effort is not to create a more whole self, but then to share our own very, extremely whole selves. From the bounty of our inner wholeness, we want to make other people feel whole as well. It's a generosity which stems from our own inner peace, happiness, and strength.

That's not really a complete answer, though. It doesn't explain why the sum would be greater than its parts, imo, when it comes to human relationships.

movingalways wrote:As an aside, I enjoyed your metaphorical penis comment. :- )

:)


Dennis Mahar wrote:you love your friends as long as they speak and act in the manner which you desire them to.

Naw, I'm not that narcissistic. They're allowed to disagree with me. If they hurt me, though, that's when I move on.
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Re: "I am" my reason

Postby eyekwah » Fri Dec 16, 2011 6:13 pm

Be nihilistic. All the cool kids are doing it.
Life is wasted on the living.
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Re: "I am" my reason

Postby Dennis Mahar » Fri Dec 16, 2011 7:05 pm

I understand that you may need another parakeet.


No, that's not what empty means.

We'll try again.
It means 'lacks inherent existence'.

Naw, I'm not that narcissistic. They're allowed to disagree with me. If they hurt me, though, that's when I move on.



That's what I said.
conditional.
self-serving.
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Re: "I am" my reason

Postby movingalways » Sat Dec 17, 2011 1:33 am

Possibly then the purpose of the effort is not to create a more whole self, but then to share our own very, extremely whole selves. From the bounty of our inner wholeness, we want to make other people feel whole as well. It's a generosity which stems from our own inner peace, happiness, and strength.


Wisdom tells us that we are whole already. Why? Because consciousness, your consciousness, is undivided. It can't, in truth, be anything but already whole, perfect, complete and pure. And yet, here you are, as are most, speaking of creating a whole self.

Wisdom also tells us that we are not creators, but interpreters. This is a very important insight, because it causes us to realize that as interpreters, we have the ability to change our mind. Change from what to what? That is an individual journey, but since you are speaking of love, is not love in its purest form not the love that knows of consciousness as being whole now? And that not only is your consciousness already whole, but that the consciousness of everyone you come in contact with is also already whole. To see in this way is to see as God would see if God were human.

I don't know how much of this board you have read, but the formula A = A is bandied about frequently. To me, A = A is what it is like inside "God's Mind": every form is equal to every other form, which means every conscious being is equal to every other conscious being. Since creation [God] dis not a person, but infinite, non-dual, [A = A] impersonal laws, principles and patterns upon which "its" spirit moves, creation does not love, but as sentient beings, loving one another unconditionally is as close as we can come to being as creation is in this dual sentient world of human interpretation.

Loving your friends in the manner with which you do now is a good starting point, but if you desire, as I desire, to love from your awareness of your creation where A = A, then your love will have to expand beyond your self-centred world.
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Re: "I am" my reason

Postby movingalways » Sat Dec 17, 2011 1:47 am

Faith has nothing to do with anything.
Faith is wishin' and hopin' for your personal preferences to be catered for.


When you first encountered the "void" of your conditioning, which offers no voice of its own truth, if it wasn't faith that brought you back again and again to its silence, what was it?
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Re: "I am" my reason

Postby Dennis Mahar » Sat Dec 17, 2011 3:06 am

Reasoning.

Not mouthing cliches like 'faith'.

Actually, painstakingly, walking the path of reasons methodically,
being in the conversation that brings the reasons to life,

it's in the conversations the 'grok' comes into it's radiance.
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Re: "I am" my reason

Postby movingalways » Sat Dec 17, 2011 4:23 am

Reasoning.


Reasoning is not the foundation of consciousness. Reasoning emerges from the foundation of consciousness. What is the foundation of consciousness? No one knows. Ergo, the experience of faith while one rests in its mystery, waiting for its wisdom to be revealed. Perhaps faith is not your experience while you waited for the "conversations to bring reasoning to life" but just because you have not tasted bananas does not mean their taste does not exist.

Not mouthing cliches like 'faith'.

Actually, painstakingly, walking the path of reasons methodically,
being in the conversation that brings the reasons to life,

it's in the conversations the 'grok' comes into it's radiance.


And 'grok' and 'radiance' are somehow different in experiential value than 'faith?' Faith is a cliche, but love and compassion and wonder and surprise are not?
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Re: "I am" my reason

Postby alice144 » Sat Dec 17, 2011 4:48 am

cognito ergo sum
(decartes)

respiro ergo sum
(alice144)
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Re: "I am" my reason

Postby Dennis Mahar » Sat Dec 17, 2011 7:14 am

I actually haven't read a post of yours that hasn't had you involved in making assertions, inviting readers to think or inquire and nominating reasons for this and that.
How you deconstruct another's reasoning and supply reasons for their alledged misfortune.
Now you are nominating faith as the reason.

So now we are told that faith is waiting.
Sitting at a bus stop waiting for a bus to come that never comes?
As if faith, by itself produced anything?
What are you doing whilst waiting for the bus?
knitting?

Suffering produces the pearl.
the motivator,
that chases down the reasons,
and in that process,
finds answers,
'til the job is done.

experiences like grok, astonishment happen as a result of reasoning.

faith gets you a loathing for bus stops.
a sore bum from sitting.
and finger strain from all the knitting.
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Re: "I am" my reason

Postby movingalways » Sat Dec 17, 2011 9:03 am

I am smiling because the very thing you are 'accusing' me of doing, that is, making assertions, you are 'guilty' of as well.

Perhaps truth lives in the smile. Or not. :-)
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Re: "I am" my reason

Postby Dennis Mahar » Sat Dec 17, 2011 10:28 am

You've lost me there chief.
To me Reason goes one way, faith another.
faith being the abrogation of reason for belief.
belief scuppers inquiry.
reason opens up inquiry.

Enter the priest or priestess declaring 'I've got it worked out'.
end your inquiring into the matter,
place your faith in me,
give me your money,
don't ask questions.

faith is a doing
reasoning is a doing

if the conditions of existence are:
be
do
have

to be enlightened ( relatively free of suffering/ detached)
to have that ( relatively free of suffering/ detached)
doing is paramount.

doing faith gets ?
doing reason gets ?

faith looks like equipment failure,
abrogation of responsibility,
waiting at the bus stop.

reason looks like 'getting the job done'.
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