Why causality is an illusion

Discussion of the nature of Ultimate Reality and the path to Enlightenment.

Why causality is an illusion

Postby movingalways » Fri Aug 05, 2011 8:43 pm

Causality is an illusion because no where, at no time, can a beginning or an ending of anything be found. Not even that which is the cause of belief in causality, which is ignorance.

Form arises and dissolves into the formless. This is why things, forms, do not affect or effect, other things, forms.

Causality is a convenient concept for the human mind, for the sake of bringing order to its sense world. It sees object as if they are solid, affecting and effecting one another, when the only affect and effect that is experienced is the mind's attachment to form. It is attachment that is the cause of belief in causality; attachment to form is ignorance [you are that which you seek] therefore, as I stated above, ignorance is the cause of belief in causality. Can one find the beginning point and ending point, a visible cause of ignorance? No. Like every form, seen and unseen, ignorance appears and disappears; ignorance, as is every form, is as a stream or flow of consciousness, no more, no less.

Enlightenment of the mind is the discovery that you are eternal and infinite, without beginning, without ending. What is the role of reason? Necessity. You are caught in your illusion of time, distance, space and matter, believing that objects are affecting and effecting one another, you are caught in your belief a reason for "something" can be found, therefore, you must use what you have to discover what is real beyond your use of reason, which is the pure awareness of you. You reason cause until you reach the end of reason, which brings you to the end of your belief in cause.
Last edited by movingalways on Sun Aug 07, 2011 8:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Why casuality is an illusion

Postby Blair » Fri Aug 05, 2011 8:51 pm

Blah, blah, blah

What caused you to have this idea..?
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Re: Why casuality is an illusion

Postby Dennis Mahar » Sat Aug 06, 2011 5:15 am

What is the role of reason? Necessity.


When you say Pam knows Pam.
What has to be in the background is intelligibility.
As the basis upon which Pam is intelligible to Pam.
Intelligibility would be the reason Pam knows Pam.
Familiarity is there too.

When you say ignorance is the cause of belief in causality you are using causality.
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Re: Why casuality is an illusion

Postby Diebert van Rhijn » Sat Aug 06, 2011 5:23 am

movingalways wrote:Form arises and dissolves into the formless.

There, you've just given "forms" a cause and an effect. It's also this thing you've invoked: the formless.

Then you must also arive at the conclusion that the formless is an illusion and as well the idea of anything arising out of such: all ignorance too!

But that would mean your "why" is just as illusive as "causality"! But you did bother anyway, you still preferred it over "goebligob" for some reason.
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Re: Why casuality is an illusion

Postby Kunga » Sat Aug 06, 2011 7:41 am

isn't this all just egotistical fuckery ?
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Re: Why casuality is an illusion

Postby Dennis Mahar » Sat Aug 06, 2011 12:41 pm

isn't this all just egotistical fuckery ?


Pam's 'will to power'?
Metaphysical domination of Reason?
valiant attempt.
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Re: Why casuality is an illusion

Postby Bob Michael » Sat Aug 06, 2011 8:25 pm

Blair wrote:What caused you to have this idea..?

Could it be the product of a mind that's 'movingalways'? A mind that's incapable of being still, being quiet?
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Re: Why casuality is an illusion

Postby Diebert van Rhijn » Sat Aug 06, 2011 8:51 pm

Kunga wrote:isn't this all just egotistical fuckery ?

Yes, but only the moment someone inserts herself, blocking the view.
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Re: Why casuality is an illusion

Postby movingalways » Sat Aug 06, 2011 10:11 pm

Blair wrote:Blah, blah, blah

What caused you to have this idea..?


Ignorance; the appearance of the material universe.
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Re: Why casuality is an illusion

Postby movingalways » Sat Aug 06, 2011 10:18 pm

Dennis Mahar wrote:
What is the role of reason? Necessity.


When you say Pam knows Pam.
What has to be in the background is intelligibility.
As the basis upon which Pam is intelligible to Pam.
Intelligibility would be the reason Pam knows Pam.
Familiarity is there too.

When you say ignorance is the cause of belief in causality you are using causality.


What is in the background is an intelligence, yes, an intelligence that has no beginning and no ending, and no reason for being "The Intelligence." Saying that it is the reason Pam knows Pam is accurate, but this reason cannot be known by Pam. It is the search for "a reason" or "the reason" which cannot be known, that keeps the world of causality turning.

It is true that my belief in causality caused me to realize ignorance is the cause of my belief, words must be used, but the word "ignorance" arouses no image or feeling, no awareness of a beginning and no ending point. It is a word that brings causality to a halt. Be still and know I am God. You must use the mind to go beyond the mind. There is no other way.
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Re: Why casuality is an illusion

Postby movingalways » Sat Aug 06, 2011 10:26 pm

Diebert van Rhijn wrote:
movingalways wrote:Form arises and dissolves into the formless.

There, you've just given "forms" a cause and an effect. It's also this thing you've invoked: the formless.

Then you must also arive at the conclusion that the formless is an illusion and as well the idea of anything arising out of such: all ignorance too!

But that would mean your "why" is just as illusive as "causality"! But you did bother anyway, you still preferred it over "goebligob" for some reason.


The formless is not a 'thing', it is a word to suggest forms that are not interpreted by the ignorance of the human mind that believes that truth and causality are one and the same 'thing.' The cause of causality cannot be known; this is why it is called Ignorance.

Since the formless is not a 'thing', but a suggestion that it is the realm of consciousness wherein forms are not seen, I do not arrive at the conclusion that the formless is an illusion. That which is not born or does not die is the reality of every form.
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Re: Why casuality is an illusion

Postby movingalways » Sat Aug 06, 2011 10:28 pm

Bob Michael wrote:
Blair wrote:What caused you to have this idea..?

Could it be the product of a mind that's 'movingalways'? A mind that's incapable of being still, being quiet?


In order for you to make this judgment about my mind you would have to be making it from the position of being absolutely still yourself. If you were absolutely still yourself, you would be gone from this world and would not know of movingalways.
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Re: Why casuality is an illusion

Postby movingalways » Sat Aug 06, 2011 10:29 pm

Kunga wrote:isn't this all just egotistical fuckery ?


If you have to ask, you do not know.
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Re: Why casuality is an illusion

Postby movingalways » Sat Aug 06, 2011 10:30 pm

Diebert van Rhijn wrote:
Kunga wrote:isn't this all just egotistical fuckery ?

Yes, but only the moment someone inserts herself, blocking the view.


Kunga is not certain, Diebert responds to Kunga's uncertainty, adding to the causal chain of ignorance.
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Re: Why casuality is an illusion

Postby movingalways » Sat Aug 06, 2011 10:32 pm

Dennis Mahar wrote:
isn't this all just egotistical fuckery ?


Pam's 'will to power'?
Metaphysical domination of Reason?
valiant attempt.


Kunga is uncertain, Diebert adds to Kunga's uncertainty, Dennis adds a third layer of uncertainty; the causal chain of ignorance grows.
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Re: Why casuality is an illusion

Postby Dennis Mahar » Sat Aug 06, 2011 10:34 pm

Roughly,
it looks like you are saying,
existence is projection,
the intricate web, projected and animated unfolds causally,
and nevernomind,
'tis but appearance.
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Re: Why casuality is an illusion

Postby Kunga » Sun Aug 07, 2011 2:54 am

Dennis Mahar wrote:
isn't this all just egotistical fuckery ?


Pam's 'will to power'?
Metaphysical domination of Reason?
valiant attempt.


yeah....better than worrying about what to wear to the grocery store while cleaning house...
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Re: Why casuality is an illusion

Postby Kunga » Sun Aug 07, 2011 3:02 am

movingalways wrote:
Kunga wrote:isn't this all just egotistical fuckery ?


If you have to ask, you do not know.



Do not know what ?
If you think you know....you don't know.


Besides all that...if you knew, you'd know it wasn't a question .....
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Re: Why casuality is an illusion

Postby Kunga » Sun Aug 07, 2011 3:12 am

Diebert van Rhijn wrote:
Kunga wrote:isn't this all just egotistical fuckery ?

Yes, but only the moment someone inserts herself, blocking the view.



lol.....maybe the view needs to get naked ...
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Re: Why casuality is an illusion

Postby movingalways » Sun Aug 07, 2011 8:49 pm

A righteous man does not live by reason, but others may call him a reasonable man. A man of reason, however, is not necessarily a righteous man. A reasoning man believes he has found the "right" cause, and builds his world from that point onward, drawing others into his web of karma or self righteousness. A righteous man lives not by reasoning, but by the directives of his conscience, which knows nothing of a "right" cause, but only of doing the right thing for the sake of his salvation or liberation, and only for his salvation or liberation.

A first cause cannot and will not, ever be found. This is the truth the man who wants or needs to find a cause, usually so he can find temporary relief from his suffering of guilt or shame or confusion, refuses to acknowledge.

Human wisdom may be about being a man of reason, but wisdom of the consciousness that transcends and sustains everything human is about being righteous while being human.
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Re: Why casuality is an illusion

Postby Diebert van Rhijn » Sun Aug 07, 2011 9:14 pm

movingalways wrote:The formless is not a 'thing', it is a word to suggest forms that are not interpreted by the ignorance of the human mind that believes that truth and causality are one and the same 'thing.' The cause of causality cannot be known; this is why it is called Ignorance.

Causality is not a "Thing", it's a word to suggest etc etc. The cause of the formless cannot be known; this is why it's called "Ignorance".

You see now the error?

Since the formless is not a 'thing', but a suggestion that it is the realm of consciousness wherein forms are not seen, I do not arrive at the conclusion that the formless is an illusion. That which is not born or does not die is the reality of every form.

Since causality is not a "thing" but a suggestion that is the realm of consciousness wherein forms are not seen, etc etc.

Causality is the reality of every form.
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Re: Why casuality is an illusion

Postby Diebert van Rhijn » Sun Aug 07, 2011 9:16 pm

Kunga wrote:
Diebert van Rhijn wrote:
Kunga wrote:isn't this all just egotistical fuckery ?

Yes, but only the moment someone inserts herself, blocking the view.

lol.....maybe the view needs to get naked ...

She already is.
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Re: Why causality is an illusion

Postby Dennis Mahar » Mon Aug 08, 2011 5:52 am

Human Being is mostly familiarity.
It starts out not knowing how to open a door, but gradually learns and doesn't have to learn anew every time how to open a door when it faces another door.
Its opening doors automatically and not even realising it as it leaves buildings.
familiarity and intelligibility.

the human machine gets its conceptual existence interpreted for it and grows familiar with it, joins the collective familiarity of interpretation,
and lives a life of familiarity in a World that is familiar.
Human being is automatic.

Familiar with that?

A persons mind is familiar concepts.
attachments.
challenging someone's familiar viewpoint rocks their World.
It can get you killed.

familiarity is a much deeper need in human being than intelligence.
living from cradle to grave without mimicry is extremely difficult.
intelligence gets ditched for familiarity.

every now and then somebody breaks through familiarity and changes World.
that becomes familiar.

What can't be broken through is,
on the subject,
'how do things exist?'

all phenomena is causes/conditions, pieces and parts, thinker with a thought and a thought with an object,
all depend for their existence.
emptiness.

It is the breakthrough.
Sheer intelligence.
May as well get familiar with it.
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Re: Why causality is an illusion

Postby movingalways » Mon Aug 08, 2011 10:35 pm

Those who drink the milk of spirit do not understand the way of the law of the Spirit of Life. Believing yet in a God or Father outside their consciousness, they stand in wonder and awe, in love and fear of Him, and have not yet entered the deep of their conscience to see the Father's true face.

The true face of Father or Unconditioned Consciousness is invisible to the eye of sense, and is known while in the realm of sense, to be an absolute silence of the senses. It is here, in the silence of the senses that man discovers the perfect balance and equality of "Let there be", the true voice of the Father, who, so as to express the Father's true nature, was named in the book of Romans "the law of the Spirit of Life." It is also here, in the silence of the law of the Spirit of Life that man discovers that he has dominion to stand on this silence of reconciliation, to end what was begun long before he was born, the setting in motion of the universal causal law of "what ye reap, so shall ye sow."

These are the men who eat the meat of spirit, who sacrifice daily, their reaping of ideas, opinions, images, perceptions and dreams. These are the men who are of the wave of consciousness that is reaping silence so that silence may be sown. These are the men who have gone beyond belief in the genie God who rescues them at death from the suffering of the world of causal dreams and nightmares, these are the men who realize that they are the living manifestation, as are all men the living manifestation, of the activity of the rescuing, the reconciling of the world of causes, the law of sin and death, unto its Thinker, the [infinite] law of the Spirit of life. These are the men that realize that the "I" in the scripture "Teaching them to observe all things whatever I have commanded you: and see, I am with you always, even to the end of the world. Amen" is not an "I" out there, but the "I" of the movement of their very Conscience of Consciousness.
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Re: Why causality is an illusion

Postby movingalways » Mon Aug 08, 2011 10:40 pm

all phenomena is causes/conditions, pieces and parts, thinker with a thought and a thought with an object,
all depend for their existence.
emptiness.

It is the breakthrough.
Sheer intelligence.
May as well get familiar with it.


And so the world of "intelligent' causes turns and turns and turns...
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