Discussing Reality is just as pointless as it is overrated

Discussion of the nature of Ultimate Reality and the path to Enlightenment.

Re: Discussing Reality is just as pointless as it is overrat

Postby mensa-maniac » Thu Jan 27, 2011 3:08 pm

Pincho Paxton wrote:Would you trust someone in a Jury who believes in God? That's my question. I mean, it is the most ridiculous thing to believe in, and is as far away from reality as you can get.


Mensa says: The Bible at the time it was written was reality, their reality--the people of that time. But, the Bible has survived centuries so that proves there are more believers than non-believers! You of course don't live through the Bible's truths, and I don't know if they are truths or not, I can only prefer to believe the Bible is truth, although I don't claim to be christian.

You say that with such ease, that I'd almost swear that you are ignorant to the Bible's contents, because it's wisdom in Proverbs is not ridiculous. You might be right about it being far away from reality--reality of that time, however, the Bible pertains to this time as well.

All you really need to do to be a christian is obey The Ten Commandments, then, you'll be living righteously.
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Re: Discussing Reality is just as pointless as it is overrat

Postby movingalways » Fri Jan 28, 2011 12:31 am

mensa maniac: All you really need to do to be a christian is obey The Ten Commandments, then, you'll be living righteously.


A Christian may obey the Ten Commandments so as to live a righteous earthly life, hoping it will ensure them a place in their Christian heaven, but for the wisdom seeker, there is a deeper purpose for their existence. The deeper purpose for the Ten Commandments is to contain one's spirit in its own house, its restless, wandering mind, so that it resolves, for itself, its ontological identity or place in the universe. Which means that the discussion of what is real to one's being can never be pointless or overrated, for once directed inward to seek out these things that are true for oneself, a man has no choice but to live in this world of wisdom-revelation.

Mensa, I relate to your words below:

You of course don't live through the Bible's truths, and I don't know if they are truths or not, I can only prefer to believe the Bible is truth, although I don't claim to be christian.


I am not a Christian, never was a Christian [even though I went to Protestant Sunday school as a child], and came [late in my life] to see the bible as being a book unsurpassed of wisdom-revelations of Consciousness.
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Re: Discussing Reality is just as pointless as it is overrat

Postby Homer » Fri Jan 28, 2011 2:49 am

deathnotewithurname wrote: Just the fact that reality is such a hot topic worries me, because reality is nothing but ones perception of events.


So you made a post to point out how pointless it is to discuss reality, and went on to discuss reality.

What part of pointless, don't you understand?

deathnotewithurname wrote: Now I realize that obviously, this "reality" effects our world constantly, but I would feel more secure in knowing that other persons who are analytically inclined, would make an effort to understand actuality. Actuality, basically what is really going on without personal issues coloring our reality of it, and how it all interacts with our world.


It is pointless discussing reality with you... by your definition of reality.

Against my better judgment, I will ask a question. The question is for you and you alone. I care not about your answer:

If reality is nothing but ones perception of events, is perception real?
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Re: Discussing Reality is just as pointless as it is overrat

Postby mensa-maniac » Fri Jan 28, 2011 11:08 am

Discussing Reality is just as pointless as it is overrated

There is a much deeper hidden meaning for reality, the hidden reality that's not known, which is why or how did humanity get here.

If the Bible does speak truth and it is God's word, it says, there are things humanity won't understand, until revealed to us.

Otherwise, philosophers can continue to find answers on their own.

I believe God is pure energy thought which is consciousness, that transfers itself from one brain to another. Before man came about, everything was void, no sound, no mass, no form, just the pure thought of God and his angels, invisible energy transformed itself into form, creating man from itself, then creating woman from itself.
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Re: Discussing Reality is just as pointless as it is overrat

Postby alphaeg » Wed Jun 01, 2011 4:36 pm

I agree that discussing reality is pointless.

In fact, any discussion that goes beyond what a human is actually able to perceive is pointless.

Even if it's real, if we cannot actually sense it what is the point? No different than talking about god I say.
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Re: Discussing Reality is just as pointless as it is overrat

Postby jufa » Thu Jun 02, 2011 1:03 am

alphaeg wrote:I agree that discussing reality is pointless.

In fact, any discussion that goes beyond what a human is actually able to perceive is pointless.

Even if it's real, if we cannot actually sense it what is the point? No different than talking about god I say.


Speculation about anything is pointless in communication. Allow me to illustrate. It is pointless for a person to tell another of their children if the children are not known. And even if the children are known, what difference does it make in the course of anothers reality? Let me illustrate this further. Place yourself in the middle of the populace of the world and you could not be found to exist. This means nothing you hear, see, touch, taste, smell, think, and that yet to be place upon your mind has any meaning to anyone, nor anything, not even to you. All man's conclusions are baseless.

Never give power to anything a person believes is their source of strength - jufa
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Re: Discussing Reality is just as pointless as it is overrat

Postby alphaeg » Thu Jun 02, 2011 2:18 am

jufa wrote:
Speculation about anything is pointless in communication. Allow me to illustrate. It is pointless for a person to tell another of their children if the children are not known. And even if the children are known, what difference does it make in the course of anothers reality? Let me illustrate this further. Place yourself in the middle of the populace of the world and you could not be found to exist. This means nothing you hear, see, touch, taste, smell, think, and that yet to be place upon your mind has any meaning to anyone, nor anything, not even to you. All man's conclusions are baseless.

Never give power to anything a person believes is their source of strength - jufa


It's funny you used that example because my dad told me about a half brother and half sister I have that I do not know, nor ever will be able to know. It was rather useless that I even found out because I won't ever be able to find them unless something miraculous happens.
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Re: Discussing Reality is just as pointless as it is overrat

Postby David Quinn » Thu Jun 02, 2011 3:01 am

The opening poster has it the wrong way around. Not discussing reality is pointless....

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Re: Discussing Reality is just as pointless as it is overrat

Postby Sphere70 » Thu Jun 02, 2011 3:23 am

First poster is onto it.
All words are abstractions of Actuality -- 'Actuality' being itself an abstraction of 'Actuality' and so on -- and if reality is naked perception free from abstractions then, yes , talking about reality is meaningless in the sense that it is taking you away of direct perception. And thinking is, of course, abstracting to oneself/talking to oneself.

Let thinking and words be object of perception like watching the hands or the sky. Don't take it as real or you'll get lost.

It's good to cultivate quietude. That meaning - real silence (not thinking - meaning engaging in thoughts that's autonomous).

But of course. Discussing "reality" is fun. That's it. Like singing. Or whistling.
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Re: Discussing Reality is just as pointless as it is overrat

Postby David Quinn » Thu Jun 02, 2011 3:50 am

You're still stuck in the realm of abstract prisons yourself. Your "reality is naked perception free from abstractions" is itself an abstraction and a prison.

"Direct perception" - what sort of rubbish is that?

To the enlightened mind, reality doesn't diminish when there are abstractions, nor does it increase when there are no abstractions. To him, reality is always naked and pure, regardless of whether he is actively engaged in thought or not.

If your attainment is dependent on the mind being quiet and thoughts being absent (or autonomous), then it is a false attainment. It is still chasing dualistic mirages. Hakuin called this sort of thing, "doing Zen down a dark hole".

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Re: Discussing Reality is just as pointless as it is overrat

Postby Sphere70 » Thu Jun 02, 2011 7:20 am

You're still stuck in the realm of abstract prisons yourself. Your "reality is naked perception free from abstractions" is itself an abstraction and a prison.


Of course, I'm telling you this all the time. Everything is an abstraction when dressed in words.

"Direct perception" - what sort of rubbish is that?

If your attainment is dependent on the mind being quiet and thoughts being absent (or autonomous), then it is a false attainment. It is still chasing dualistic mirages. Hakuin called this sort of thing, "doing Zen down a dark hole".


Hakuin eeyyy.....,-)

Well, then I counter with Huang Po

"This pure mind, which is the source of all things, shines forever with the radiance of its own perfection. But most people are not aware of it, and think that mind is just the faculty that sees, hears, feels, and knows. Blinded by their own sight, hearing, feeling, and knowing, they don't perceive the radiance of the source. If they could eliminate all conceptual thinking, this source would appear, like the sun rising through the empty sky and illuminating the whole universe. Therefore, you students of the Tao who seek to understand through seeing, hearing, feeling, and knowing, when your perceptions are cut off, your way to mind will be cut off and you will find nowhere to enter. Just realize that although mind is manifested in these perceptions, it is neither part of them nor separate from them. You shouldn't try to analyze these perceptions, or think about them at all; but you shouldn't seek the one mind apart from them. Don't hold on to them or leave them behind or dwell in them or reject them. Above, below, and all around you, all things spontaneously exist, because there is nowhere outside the Buddha mind."

The cloud-like formation of thought and emotion Is autonomous. No need to read into its shapes. Do it if you like - but don't come around telling people you saw the image of Ultimate Truth in the connections of some of the clouds. Let it all be, once and a while. This is the quiet mind. Mind still is - the dabbler settles down.
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Re: Discussing Reality is just as pointless as it is overrat

Postby David Quinn » Thu Jun 02, 2011 9:49 am

Sphere70 wrote:
You're still stuck in the realm of abstract prisons yourself. Your "reality is naked perception free from abstractions" is itself an abstraction and a prison.

Of course, I'm telling you this all the time.

I know, but that only adds to the irony which saturates our conversation.

Everything that you say I do - namely, becoming lost in abstractions - is what in fact you do. And everything that you say you do - namely, go beyond thought and live in Reality directly - is what in fact I do.

It's as though Nature has suddenly experienced a glitch and has mistakenly inserted each of our words in the wrong body.


Sphere70 wrote:Everything is an abstraction when dressed in words.

Everything is an abstraction, full stop. Or, perhaps I should say, nothing is an abstraction......

Why bring words into it? They have nothing to do with the matter.

(Answer: to preserve the abstraction which you are currently attached to - namely, that enlightened reality is beyond thought - and to undermine the power of reason so that you do not have to face the contradictions of this abstraction and others like it which form the basis of your comfortable world-view).


Sphere70 wrote:
"Direct perception" - what sort of rubbish is that?

If your attainment is dependent on the mind being quiet and thoughts being absent (or autonomous), then it is a false attainment. It is still chasing dualistic mirages. Hakuin called this sort of thing, "doing Zen down a dark hole".

Hakuin eeyyy.....,-)

Well, then I counter with Huang Po

"This pure mind, which is the source of all things, shines forever with the radiance of its own perfection. But most people are not aware of it, and think that mind is just the faculty that sees, hears, feels, and knows. Blinded by their own sight, hearing, feeling, and knowing, they don't perceive the radiance of the source. If they could eliminate all conceptual thinking, this source would appear, like the sun rising through the empty sky and illuminating the whole universe. Therefore, you students of the Tao who seek to understand through seeing, hearing, feeling, and knowing, when your perceptions are cut off, your way to mind will be cut off and you will find nowhere to enter. Just realize that although mind is manifested in these perceptions, it is neither part of them nor separate from them. You shouldn't try to analyze these perceptions, or think about them at all; but you shouldn't seek the one mind apart from them. Don't hold on to them or leave them behind or dwell in them or reject them. Above, below, and all around you, all things spontaneously exist, because there is nowhere outside the Buddha mind."

The cloud-like formation of thought and emotion Is autonomous. No need to read into its shapes. Do it if you like - but don't come around telling people you saw the image of Ultimate Truth in the connections of some of the clouds. Let it all be, once and a while. This is the quiet mind. Mind still is - the dabbler settles down.

"Seeing the image of Ultimate Truth in the connections of some of the clouds" - what on earth are you talking about? You've really got no idea.

You have a very limited, very biased view of what thought is - which, again, is understandable since it's obvious that you're trying to protect the addictions and attachments in your own life. And this, in turn, leads you to use thought in a very underhanded, selective manner, just like the Christian fundamentalists do.

You're perfectly happy to use the cloud-shapes when it suits you - when they give you pleasure - but as soon as these shapes begin to turn on you, you immediately invoke the escape clause and try to opt out of thought altogether. That's what your "spirituality" is all about - the maximizing of pleasure and the denial of truth. And that is why you worship the likes of UG and Alan Watts, for they have shown you the way to do this.

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Re: Discussing Reality is just as pointless as it is overrat

Postby Sphere70 » Thu Jun 02, 2011 10:33 am

I know, but that only adds to the irony which saturates our conversation.

Everything that you say I do - namely, becoming lost in abstractions - is what in fact you do. And everything that you say you do - namely, go beyond thought and live in Reality directly - is what in fact I do.

It's as though Nature has suddenly experienced a glitch and has mistakenly inserted each of our words in the wrong body.


What the hell, you're the one reaffirming the constant involvement with thought as a means to attain liberation.
So let's define thought. You said further down that I had a limited definition of thought.
I define it as vibrations interpreted as language which is abstract symbols relating to the five senses. These symbols have their learned reference-point that is agreed upon. A tree is a tree and finger is a finger (starts here and ends there, someone has decided) - and so on. Thought is therefore an extra 'sense' relating to the other senses. An abstraction (an idea about); ordering and defining the world. It's a tool for the body for means of survival - hence the further creation of a "You", a separate individual; a Thinker and a Doer.
The problem is that many believe intrinsically that the images of thought is the Thing. And that the Thing is them and that the thoughts is achieved by them, this "I". This is the problem and this is rarely looked upon.

"Seeing the image of Ultimate Truth in the connections of some of the clouds" - what on earth are you talking about? You've really got no idea.


Cause and effect for example.

You're perfectly happy to use the cloud-shapes when it suits you - when they give you pleasure - but as soon as these shapes begin to turn on you, you immediately invoke the escape clause and try to opt out of thought altogether. That's what your "spirituality" is all about - the maximizing of pleasure and the denial of truth. And that is why you worship the likes of UG and Alan Watts, for they have shown you the way to do this.


I affirm thought for its use - as a tool for functioning as a human being in a world created in its image. I don't see it as a tool to reach Enlightenment. This is all I'm saying. Of course I will use these "cloud-structures" and its conceptual nature as a means of communicating. That doesn't mean I take it as the thing or will tell others that it is the thing, which I have gotten the sense that you do. Thoughts can give you everything in this world, its the most powerful tool.

But Enlightenment (which is more of a 'finding a way back home')? I lean towards Richard Rose in this case:

Enlightenment is the result of your thoughts being a certain distance apart.
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Re: Discussing Reality is just as pointless as it is overrat

Postby David Quinn » Thu Jun 02, 2011 10:41 pm

Sphere70 wrote:
I know, but that only adds to the irony which saturates our conversation.

Everything that you say I do - namely, becoming lost in abstractions - is what in fact you do. And everything that you say you do - namely, go beyond thought and live in Reality directly - is what in fact I do.

It's as though Nature has suddenly experienced a glitch and has mistakenly inserted each of our words in the wrong body.

What the hell, you're the one reaffirming the constant involvement with thought as a means to attain liberation.
So let's define thought. You said further down that I had a limited definition of thought.
I define it as vibrations interpreted as language which is abstract symbols relating to the five senses. These symbols have their learned reference-point that is agreed upon. A tree is a tree and finger is a finger (starts here and ends there, someone has decided) - and so on. Thought is therefore an extra 'sense' relating to the other senses. An abstraction (an idea about); ordering and defining the world. It's a tool for the body for means of survival - hence the further creation of a "You", a separate individual; a Thinker and a Doer.
The problem is that many believe intrinsically that the images of thought is the Thing. And that the Thing is them and that the thoughts is achieved by them, this "I". This is the problem and this is rarely looked upon.

You’re confirming everything that I have been saying about your attitude to thought. You're imposing all these rules which needn’t be there.

For example, you say that thought is related to the five senses, but it can just as easily be extended far beyond them into unrelated areas. You say that it is tied to agreed-upon conventions, but it can also be completely divorced from them. You say that it is a tool for survival, but it can just as easily be used for completely different purposes. You say that it depends on a belief in the "I", but it can operate just as easily without such a belief. It is entirely up to the individual and how he employs it.

Thought can either be rational or irrational. It can be constructive or destructive. It can build new systems of thought, or it can overturn old ones - or indeed, it can overturn all systems completely. It all depends on how it is used.


Sphere70 wrote:
"Seeing the image of Ultimate Truth in the connections of some of the clouds" - what on earth are you talking about? You've really got no idea.

Cause and effect for example.

Cause and effect is simply an antidote. It helps cure the mind of its belief in inherent existence. That’s what all truth is - an antidote to delusion. Once all delusion has gone, then truth automatically goes with it. Once a fire consumes all the flammable material, it naturally disappears of its own accord.

You really have to give up this idea that using reason is all about creating systems of thought and remaining in the realm of abstraction. That is merely one possible use of reason. There are many other ways it can be used.

To use a mundane analogy, when a child reasons that Santa Claus is a myth, he immediately strips the Santa myth of its power. Previously, the myth had captured his mind and held it spellbound, but now, having seen into its contradictory nature, he instantly becomes free of the myth and its associated charms.

He doesn’t have to keep using his reasoning over and over in order to keep destroying the myth. Nor does he have to construct another myth to replace it. He only has to see through it and the spell is broken. He can move on, leaving that particular myth and its rational antidote behind.

The principle is exactly the same with regards to spirituality. Once you use reason to see through the core delusions of life, their spell is immediately broken and you no longer have to use reason again, at least as far as your own spiritual understanding is concerned. The other shore has been reached and the boat of reason can be discarded.

But alas, people are so quick to discard this boat far too prematurely (because they have attachments and addictions to protect) and they end up spending the rest of their lives trying to convince themselves that the near shore (i.e. ordinary human life) is the only reality there is.


Sphere70 wrote:I lean towards Richard Rose in this case:

Enlightenment is the result of your thoughts being a certain distance apart.

Well, I think you probably have to be stoned to appreciate that one..... :)

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Re: Discussing Reality is just as pointless as it is overrat

Postby Sphere70 » Fri Jun 03, 2011 2:49 pm

For example, you say that thought is related to the five senses, but it can just as easily be extended far beyond them into unrelated areas. You say that it is tied to agreed-upon conventions, but it can also be completely divorced from them. You say that it is a tool for survival, but it can just as easily be used for completely different purposes. You say that it depends on a belief in the "I", but it can operate just as easily without such a belief. It is entirely up to the individual and how he employs it.


Yes, certainly. I was just giving a base-definition of its core-function for the sake of being on the same page.
Embedded in the definition is that it can, of course, build structures far beyond its "intended" use. This I've never argued with.

Thought can either be rational or irrational


Of course

It can be constructive or destructive.


Sure, but even the idea of what's constructive or destructive is a subjective construction (or that anything for that matter is constructive or destructive)

The principle is exactly the same with regards to spirituality. Once you use reason to see through the core delusions of life, their spell is immediately broken and you no longer have to use reason again, at least as far as your own spiritual understanding is concerned. The other shore has been reached and the boat of reason can be discarded.


Well, it seems like you're affirming what is generally meant as the silent mind. I agree upon that a first step could certainly be to use thought to show its own trappings through the idea and feeling we have as the Thinker to see, in its own way of function, that there is no Thinker, and by that action the "spell" of that delusion disappear. What could be called 'the original knot' get loosened and a sense of "living silence" remains in the place of the Controller. That is; the awareness which is All-Encompassing Consciousness "clipped" through a specific vehicle/body-organism - for the sake of experiencing itself through the play of dualism - are not longer dammed by the shadows of autonomous thoughts - which is the sense of the Controller (a.k.a the Ego) - and this Consciousness can finally exert its main attribute without interruption (even though it really defies definitions): Total Attention.
This would be a deeper understanding of the now fashionable (but washed-out and misunderstood) statement: Living in the Present. Of course everything is a living in the present - but there is an actual difference in the taste of life (which it refers to) when this knot of the doer (the false Ego) is loosened and seen as false.
Another way is to turn this attention onto itself. This is to be firmly rooted in the Tao (the I Am). But one thing doesn't exclude the other.
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