I know, but that only adds to the irony which saturates our conversation.
Everything that you say I do - namely, becoming lost in abstractions - is what in fact you do. And everything that you say you do - namely, go beyond thought and live in Reality directly - is what in fact I do.
It's as though Nature has suddenly experienced a glitch and has mistakenly inserted each of our words in the wrong body.
What the hell, you're the one reaffirming the constant involvement with thought as a means to attain liberation.
So let's define thought. You said further down that I had a limited definition of thought.
I define it as vibrations interpreted as language which is abstract symbols relating to the five senses. These symbols have their learned reference-point that is agreed upon. A tree is a tree and finger is a finger (starts here and ends there, someone has decided) - and so on. Thought is therefore an extra 'sense' relating to the other senses. An abstraction (an idea about
); ordering and defining the world. It's a tool for the body for means of survival - hence the further creation of a "You", a separate individual; a Thinker and a Doer.
The problem is that many believe intrinsically that the images of thought is the Thing. And that the Thing is them and that the thoughts is achieved by them, this "I". This is the problem and this is rarely looked upon.
You’re confirming everything that I have been saying about your attitude to thought. You're imposing all these rules which needn’t be there.
For example, you say that thought is related to the five senses, but it can just as easily be extended far beyond them into unrelated areas. You say that it is tied to agreed-upon conventions, but it can also be completely divorced from them. You say that it is a tool for survival, but it can just as easily be used for completely different purposes. You say that it depends on a belief in the "I", but it can operate just as easily without such a belief. It is entirely up to the individual and how he employs it.
Thought can either be rational or irrational. It can be constructive or destructive. It can build new systems of thought, or it can overturn old ones - or indeed, it can overturn all systems completely.
It all depends on how it is used.
"Seeing the image of Ultimate Truth in the connections of some of the clouds" - what on earth are you talking about? You've really got no idea.
Cause and effect for example.
Cause and effect is simply an antidote. It helps cure the mind of its belief in inherent existence. That’s what all truth is - an antidote to delusion. Once all delusion has gone, then truth automatically goes with it. Once a fire consumes all the flammable material, it naturally disappears of its own accord.
You really have to give up this idea that using reason is all about creating systems of thought and remaining in the realm of abstraction. That is merely one possible use of reason. There are many other ways it can be used.
To use a mundane analogy, when a child reasons that Santa Claus is a myth, he immediately strips the Santa myth of its power. Previously, the myth had captured his mind and held it spellbound, but now, having seen into its contradictory nature, he instantly becomes free of the myth and its associated charms.
He doesn’t have to keep using his reasoning over and over in order to keep destroying the myth. Nor does he have to construct another myth to replace it. He only has to see through it and the spell is broken. He can move on, leaving that particular myth and its rational antidote behind.
The principle is exactly the same with regards to spirituality. Once you use reason to see through the core delusions of life, their spell is immediately broken and you no longer have to use reason again, at least as far as your own spiritual understanding is concerned. The other shore has been reached and the boat of reason can be discarded.
But alas, people are so quick to discard this boat far too prematurely (because they have attachments and addictions to protect) and they end up spending the rest of their lives trying to convince themselves that the near shore (i.e. ordinary human life) is the only reality there is.
Sphere70 wrote:I lean towards Richard Rose in this case:
Enlightenment is the result of your thoughts being a certain distance apart.
Well, I think you probably have to be stoned to appreciate that one..... :)