Rip my (most recent) theory to pieces.

Discussion of the nature of Ultimate Reality and the path to Enlightenment.

Re: Rip my (most recent) theory to pieces.

Postby Sazar » Wed Apr 20, 2011 12:21 am

We understand our reality, because of the way it's constructed inside of us.

We use our conscious to follow the the grooves of our brain, and mistake reality for unfolding in the same way our brain/mind does.

This is fallacy.

Thus different blue prints, different reality competely.
It's not hard to imagine possibilities other than causality.
Really easy. Kid's can do it no problem. Not sure why adults have so much trouble with it.
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Re: Rip my (most recent) theory to pieces.

Postby movingalways » Wed Apr 20, 2011 4:35 am

It's not hard to imagine possibilities other than causalities.


When using the imagination, which is the faculty of consciousness that manifests visible forms, this is true.

But the imagination of visible causalities did not cause itself to appear. That cause is invisible, is unseen, therefore is unknown, therefore, cannot be analyzed by way of causalities.

Which brings one to the realization that in the reality of man's awareness, there is no cause, nor is there an effect. Which brings one also to the realization that every word spoken or written that appears as a result of the erroneous belief in the reality of cause and effect is equal to every other word spoken or written that arises from the same erroneous belief. A = A.

Which means to the enlightened individual, ASS = SAGE, MORON = GENIUS, GOOD = EVIL, NINE = THOUSAND.

Not good news for those like to believe in the power of their words.
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Re: Rip my (most recent) theory to pieces.

Postby Sazar » Wed Apr 20, 2011 6:59 am

movingalways wrote:
It's not hard to imagine possibilities other than causalities.


When using the imagination, which is the faculty of consciousness that manifests visible forms, this is true.

But the imagination of visible causalities did not cause itself to appear. That cause is invisible, is unseen, therefore is unknown, therefore, cannot be analyzed by way of causalities.

Which brings one to the realization that in the reality of man's awareness, there is no cause, nor is there an effect. Which brings one also to the realization that every word spoken or written that appears as a result of the erroneous belief in the reality of cause and effect is equal to every other word spoken or written that arises from the same erroneous belief. A = A.

Which means to the enlightened individual, ASS = SAGE, MORON = GENIUS, GOOD = EVIL, NINE = THOUSAND.

Not good news for those like to believe in the power of their words.



What you're referring to is the nature of what a word or thought is.
And you right, no thought or word alone is any different than another in it's nature.

But let me give you an example.
If i'm speaking to a cop face to face, my reality will change as a consequence of the
words that I choose.

If I say threatening words, you can bet your ass that will result in a different reality,
than if I had used polite words.

So obviously, words do have power.
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Re: Rip my (most recent) theory to pieces.

Postby cousinbasil » Wed Apr 20, 2011 7:04 am

It's not hard to imagine possibilities other than causality.
Really easy. Kid's can do it no problem. Not sure why adults have so much trouble with it.

Kids also wet their beds, no problem. Those same kids have problems walking The world has a way of training magical thinking right out of a person. But do not despair, if you think grown-ups abandon it altogether, just notice how the lines outside a lottery ticket shop lengthen when the jackpot gets big. Magical thinking (dreams, prayers, believing wishing makes a thing happen) makes these people part with the relentless certainty of cause and effect. Worse still are the lottery veterans who now share this line with the newcomers on the bandwagon. They know from experience that they will not win. And yet here they are.
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Re: Rip my (most recent) theory to pieces.

Postby Sazar » Wed Apr 20, 2011 8:01 am

cousinbasil wrote:
It's not hard to imagine possibilities other than causality.
Really easy. Kid's can do it no problem. Not sure why adults have so much trouble with it.

Kids also wet their beds, no problem. Those same kids have problems walking The world has a way of training magical thinking right out of a person. But do not despair, if you think grown-ups abandon it altogether, just notice how the lines outside a lottery ticket shop lengthen when the jackpot gets big. Magical thinking (dreams, prayers, believing wishing makes a thing happen) makes these people part with the relentless certainty of cause and effect. Worse still are the lottery veterans who now share this line with the newcomers on the bandwagon. They know from experience that they will not win. And yet here they are.


Imagination is an ability.

People use it to form ideas of reality, in hopes of finding better ways of coping/understanding/affecting their own reality.

Some people use it to wish circumstances into existance (such as winning the lotto), while others use it more reasonably. *shrugs shoulders*

Anything else you'd like to add?
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Re: Rip my (most recent) theory to pieces.

Postby cousinbasil » Thu Apr 21, 2011 4:16 am

Well, you weren't talking about imagination in general. You were talking about imagining things happening acausally, and that kids do that easily wile adults do not.

Maybe my example obscured my point. It is advantageous for the survival of the individual organism to learn that things occur in a causal fashion. "Imagining" anything else is detrimental.

But often imagination plays a key role in understanding cause and effect. Here a child's imagination's lack of ability to see things causally can make him fail.

For example, take a child learning to play a musical instrument. Adults may tell him it requires endless practice, but he can never have witnessed such a thing. Certainly he has not experienced it. All he knows is what playing the instrument competently sounds like, and that all of his hard practice has produced nothing like that. More often than not, such a child becomes frustrated and quits.

I originally responded to your post because it sounded as if you were saying imagining things happen acausally - which children do easily and adults do not - is a good thing and that you were bemoaning its loss to the average grown-up.

I think this is a bit simplistic. I think that children actually have a fantastic belief in cause and effect. They in fact yearn for it, as they perceive themselves as lacking that power that adults seem to have. They crave power, that is, they wish to control their environment. They wish the causes they furnish - their actions or desires, such as repetitive asking for something - to have the desired effect, which is getting what they have asked for. All people, big and small, want more power. This only happens if they learn to master cause and effect, which is a never-ending process.

Since all things proceed causally, acausal thinking is detrimental and, if all goes well, gets beaten out of a child as he/she grows.
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Re: Rip my (most recent) theory to pieces.

Postby Sazar » Thu Apr 21, 2011 7:01 am

Good post Basil...

At this point, the question is begged:
Does Causality requires a prime mover?
An original cause?

And if so, doesn't that refute the idea of an infinite existence of light matter?
That there must be a beginning to it?

Or could the beginning of light matter, having spawned from dark matter, be sufficient to marry both ideas?

That way, causality stays in place, and the original Cause was the need of dark matter to create an equal and opposite matter. Thus starting the chain of light matter, making causality plausible, while still leaving time out of the equation.


Its late in the workday and i've had too much coffee, sorry for any incoherence in this post.
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Re: Rip my (most recent) theory to pieces.

Postby Russell » Fri Apr 22, 2011 10:02 am

Sazar wrote:At this point, the question is begged:
Does Causality requires a prime mover?
An original cause?

Obviously not. An "original cause" would automatically become a process of causality in the first place; Any and every cause is the result of ripe circumstance, thus a conceived "original cause" was caused. The search for an "original cause" is an infinite wild goose chase.
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Re: Rip my (most recent) theory to pieces.

Postby Sazar » Fri Apr 22, 2011 11:54 pm

Then there can be no action and reaction in ultimate reality.
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Re: Rip my (most recent) theory to pieces.

Postby Tomas » Sat Apr 23, 2011 2:21 am

Sazar wrote:Then there can be no action and reaction in ultimate reality.

Anghhhh, there's 'room for movement' in ultimate reality.
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Re: Rip my (most recent) theory to pieces.

Postby Russell » Sat Apr 23, 2011 5:32 am

Sazar wrote:Then there can be no action and reaction in ultimate reality.


What is action/reaction beyond the observance of such?
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Re: Rip my (most recent) theory to pieces.

Postby jufa » Sat Apr 23, 2011 6:22 am

bluerap wrote:
Sazar wrote:At this point, the question is begged:
Does Causality requires a prime mover?
An original cause?

Obviously not. An "original cause" would automatically become a process of causality in the first place; Any and every cause is the result of ripe circumstance, thus a conceived "original cause" was caused. The search for an "original cause" is an infinite wild goose chase.


This is one of the most irrational statement I have read anywhere. Causality requires vision. Whether that vision is visible or invisible to human intellectual awareness, that vision is preceded by thought - "first the blade, then the ear, then the full corn in the ear" -. Thought requires a thinker and it matters not what the thinker is labled, it is the thinker thinking the thought which is the prime mover, thus the causality manifested in consciousness. Consciousness projects the vision to the mind. The mind projects the vision to the imagination as an objectification of form. The imagination subjectifies these forms as time, space, distance and matter which become the realized thoughts of man.

The search for an original cause cannot be found because the reality of existence is there is no logic for the existence of existence to begin with.

Never give power to anything a person believes is their source of strength - jufa
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Re: Rip my (most recent) theory to pieces.

Postby jufa » Sat Apr 23, 2011 6:26 am

bluerap wrote:
Sazar wrote:Then there can be no action and reaction in ultimate reality.


What is action/reaction beyond the observance of such?


It is the Spirit of intent, will, and purpose of the movement of the thought sent forth.

Never give power to anything a person believes is their source of strength - jufa
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Re: Rip my (most recent) theory to pieces.

Postby Russell » Sat Apr 23, 2011 6:57 am

jufa wrote:The search for an original cause cannot be found because the reality of existence is there is no logic for the existence of existence to begin with.

This is the only statement that makes any sort of sense. The rest of your post, which seems to try to explain some sort of origination of causality, contradicts this statement.
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Re: Rip my (most recent) theory to pieces.

Postby Russell » Sat Apr 23, 2011 6:59 am

jufa wrote:
bluerap wrote:
Sazar wrote:Then there can be no action and reaction in ultimate reality.


What is action/reaction beyond the observance of such?


It is the Spirit of intent, will, and purpose of the movement of the thought sent forth.


What you described can be slotted into the "action" category.
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Re: Rip my (most recent) theory to pieces.

Postby Sazar » Sat Apr 23, 2011 7:27 am

I think it's unwise to assume that something needs to be the object of awareness for their to be a cause/effect.

Example: Stars beyond hubblespace.
Only the infinite consciousness can be aware of these.
"Life-forms" cannot be obviously, unless they're are life forms out there.
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Re: Rip my (most recent) theory to pieces.

Postby jufa » Sat Apr 23, 2011 7:28 am

bluerap wrote:
jufa wrote:The search for an original cause cannot be found because the reality of existence is there is no logic for the existence of existence to begin with.

This is the only statement that makes any sort of sense. The rest of your post, which seems to try to explain some sort of origination of causality, contradicts this statement.


Your problem of lack of understanding comes because to go beyond the mind, one must go through the mind. Have you went beyond the human mind? Nonetheless...............................................

Because no one cannot find logic for existence does not negate the reality of your existence nor mine. This being a truth, and a present truth, action/reaction is witness of a cause without logic, yet a Cause which purpose thinking and doing.

Never give power to anything a person believes is their source of strength - jufa
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Re: Rip my (most recent) theory to pieces.

Postby Russell » Sat Apr 23, 2011 8:25 am

jufa wrote:Because no one cannot find logic for existence does not negate the reality of your existence nor mine. This being a truth, and a present truth, action/reaction is witness of a cause without logic, yet a Cause which purpose thinking and doing.

(I assume that was an accidental double negative in the first sentence)

I get what you're saying Jufa, but the point is, no matter who or what "goes beyond the mind" or whatever mystical experience you're referring to, one will never find any "original cause," or a causeless cause. Ultimately speaking, of course.

In the end, one can figure that the cause of Causality can only be Causality itself.. which isn't entirely accurate because it erroneously presumes that Causality is some sort of concrete "thing."
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Re: Rip my (most recent) theory to pieces.

Postby jufa » Sat Apr 23, 2011 3:21 pm

Ah, but this is not true. Each and ever individual is the cause. In this realm they are the element matter of the universe. And when they discover this reality and the invisibility of themselves, they will have discovered that which they were seeking, they are. In this comprehension they will have no knowledge of existence because they will be existence. This is saying Cause is It own object of subjectiveness. This is why a human being
will never find any "original cause," or a causeless cause.


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Re: Rip my (most recent) theory to pieces.

Postby movingalways » Sun Apr 24, 2011 3:00 am

jufa wrote:Ah, but this is not true. Each and ever individual is the cause. In this realm they are the element matter of the universe. And when they discover this reality and the invisibility of themselves, they will have discovered that which they were seeking, they are. In this comprehension they will have no knowledge of existence because they will be existence. This is saying Cause is It own object of subjectiveness. This is why a human being
will never find any "original cause," or a causeless cause.


and why, if a person is true to the invisible voice of the infinity of the cause of themself, that they will be moved to explore every ream of effect of this, their invisible, infinite cause. For now, as you say, this realm or effect or emanation of that of the element matter of the universe. Which means that before this movement into other realms of Awareness of one's cause of oneself can be experienced, it is necessary to be liberated from the realm of the element matter of the universe. Worlds within worlds within worlds of I Am That awareness await the discovery of the one who has come to see that the illusory bonds of birth and of death can be broken.

Men talk of infinity, not realizing they are the infinity of themselves.
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Re: Rip my (most recent) theory to pieces.

Postby cousinbasil » Mon Apr 25, 2011 6:30 am

ma wrote:Men talk of infinity, not realizing they are the infinity of themselves.

Instead they settle for thinking the world of themselves.
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