Studying the Tao Te Ching

Discussion of the nature of Ultimate Reality and the path to Enlightenment.

Studying the Tao Te Ching

Postby wanghuanju » Fri Apr 08, 2011 6:25 pm

Studying the Tao Te Ching and the Taoist Way of Lao-Tzu I would directly state that it is not at all a rejection of the feminized spirit in favor of the masculine and then forward into Enlightenment.
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Re: Studying the Tao Te Ching

Postby Blair » Fri Apr 08, 2011 7:29 pm

What makes you think one goes forward into Enlightenment?
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Re: Studying the Tao Te Ching

Postby Sphere70 » Fri Apr 08, 2011 11:19 pm

I recognize those words ,-)

Well, if we suppose that enlightenment is a cause-effect act, and that we by thought connect one present moment with another (making it into a cause-effect act) we could describe image one (not enlightened) with image two (enlightened) as forward into enlightenment, though of course any term could be used. We could even state, like UG, that it is acasual, and yes, then there is no conceptual idea applicable other then that of acasuality itself.
But yes, seen from the Tao Te Ching and from own experiences of being in states where I seem closer to that implied in the writing (which could be painted, agreeably, with the kind of hastened word into - if it even leads further which I don't yet know), it can certainly from one person, be viewed with the concept of cause-and-effect, and therefore also with the word forward , because of the idea that enlightenment in some respects is a privileged mode of being, currently separated from one that is less so.
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Re: Studying the Tao Te Ching

Postby Blair » Sat Apr 09, 2011 1:03 am

You are talking flowery horseshit.

Enlightenment is an absence, a removal of delusion. (such as, that you are existing)
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Re: Studying the Tao Te Ching

Postby Sphere70 » Sat Apr 09, 2011 1:13 am

how's that goin for you?
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Re: Studying the Tao Te Ching

Postby Sazar » Sat Apr 09, 2011 2:06 am

You just don't seem to get it.

The Dao de jing was made absolutely simple for this very reason.

Do not complicate it.

Enlightenment is simply the realization that we are programmable machines.
We've been filtering data through our processors since birth.
Americans are an easy example.
The media is a program. The sensationalism alone is enough to persuade your average individual into believing whatever they (the media) wants.

Simple as that. Enlightenment is a term coined to describe the pulling back of the mind from the superficial reality created by the living world and it's inhabitants.
A reigning in of emotions and passion, to seperate the self from the self's imagination.

Imagination is great, but when the person doesn't know the difference between it and "reality"...That's where problems arise.
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Re: Studying the Tao Te Ching

Postby Sphere70 » Sat Apr 09, 2011 2:32 am

Sazar wrote: Imagination is great, but when the person doesn't know the difference between it and "reality"...That's where problems arise.

Yes, exactly. When you are lost in the images created by thoughts and emotions reality is within that indentification and relative. There is no different though what these images consists of - they are all unreal. But to have the viewpoint from beneath (if you will) thoughts and emotions they pass through without interuption. So no need to eliminate anything, that is an automatic process from abiding in the tao.

I like this quote from Nisargadatta

The world is like a sheet of paper on which something is typed. The reading and the meaning will vary with the reader, but the paper is the common factor, always present, rarely perceived. When the ribbon is removed, typing leaves no trace on the paper. So is my mind - the impressions keep on coming, but no trace is left.
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Re: Studying the Tao Te Ching

Postby Sazar » Sat Apr 09, 2011 5:13 am

Sphere70 wrote:Sazar wrote: Imagination is great, but when the person doesn't know the difference between it and "reality"...That's where problems arise.

Yes, exactly. When you are lost in the images created by thoughts and emotions reality is within that indentification and relative. There is no different though what these images consists of - they are all unreal. But to have the viewpoint from beneath (if you will) thoughts and emotions they pass through without interuption. So no need to eliminate anything, that is an automatic process from abiding in the tao.

I like this quote from Nisargadatta

The world is like a sheet of paper on which something is typed. The reading and the meaning will vary with the reader, but the paper is the common factor, always present, rarely perceived. When the ribbon is removed, typing leaves no trace on the paper. So is my mind - the impressions keep on coming, but no trace is left.



This post I can agree with.
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Re: Studying the Tao Te Ching

Postby jufa » Sun Apr 10, 2011 2:50 am

Traveling this path, which I cannot find the logic or reason nor purpose for so doing, I've found all men live the life of a lie, of denial by attempting to hide their nakedness of truth by running, hiding from the evil only found in their minds, which manifest into the matter their sense deems reality, and introduce into this reality the thought of a second power.

A power which has become an agent of torment that kills, then buries the truth of the true meaning of Christ in the tomb of ignorance. Ignorance which express the lie of dualism, and violates the pattern and order of Spirit within any mind attempting to enter into the reality of True Consciousness..

When men stop looking to hear from a God in their human minds and begin to look within themselves, they will begin to understand they live, and move, and have their beings in the Consciousness of the Creator. The Creator receives no recognition from the human mind; it is not imbued with truth. It is confined to its own outlines of things it has invented and become enslaved too. Never can the human mind escape from the darkness of its own invention to see it is "God, who made the world, and all things in it, seeing he is Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands, neither is worshiped with men's hands, as though he needed anything, seeing he gives to all life, and breath, and all things."

Man's enslavement to the thing of his own invention is what keeps him from believing -truly believing- God is his Father. That God Himself is the immaculate conception of all creation visible and invisible. This enslavement keeps men from comprehending that which is appearing in their lives today results from their prenatal conditioning, their racial and religious roots, education, and personal experiences of thinking, because thoughts are the conditioners of life by way of the senses. And because man has not made the exodus from the darkness of sight, sound, emotion, flavor, odor and touch in an effort to draw near to God "with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having their heart sprinkled FROM AN EVIL CONSCIENCE, and their bodies washed with pure water," they have made themselves children "of trangression, a seed of falsehood, inflaming themselves with idols," whose essence is of the universal human mind, and substance the imaginative illusion the human mind produce.

Men cannot see what their minds do not comprehend. Illumination has never come to anyone living from a conditioned mind. Man is either born with an overwhelming wanton for illumination -which did not, nor does not begin within the dimension of birth- or something intervenes in their lives turning them to God. Turning to God is not reading the Scriptures, memorizing them, not attemptings to live a good and moral life. Turning to God is dropping all concepts, opinion, theories, and absorption of things they have interpreted and which has been interpreted to them. It means letting go of intellectualism religion, and letting the True Teacher take over one's learning.

Until this has came to pass; until men have set their feet upon the path which will begin their journey to fulfill the covenant they made with the Father, their minds are in the same predicament of running and hiding, and covering themselves with the leaves of their own thought iniquities as so did Adam and Eve, when they attempted to hide from the VOICE of God WALKING through the garden.

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Re: Studying the Tao Te Ching

Postby Sazar » Sun Apr 10, 2011 5:50 am

jufa wrote:Traveling this path, which I cannot find the logic or reason nor purpose for so doing, I've found all men live the life of a lie, of denial by attempting to hide their nakedness of truth by running, hiding from the evil only found in their minds, which manifest into the matter their sense deems reality, and introduce into this reality the thought of a second power.

A power which has become an agent of torment that kills, then buries the truth of the true meaning of Christ in the tomb of ignorance. Ignorance which express the lie of dualism, and violates the pattern and order of Spirit within any mind attempting to enter into the reality of True Consciousness..

When men stop looking to hear from a God in their human minds and begin to look within themselves, they will begin to understand they live, and move, and have their beings in the Consciousness of the Creator. The Creator receives no recognition from the human mind; it is not imbued with truth. It is confined to its own outlines of things it has invented and become enslaved too. Never can the human mind escape from the darkness of its own invention to see it is "God, who made the world, and all things in it, seeing he is Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands, neither is worshiped with men's hands, as though he needed anything, seeing he gives to all life, and breath, and all things."

Man's enslavement to the thing of his own invention is what keeps him from believing -truly believing- God is his Father. That God Himself is the immaculate conception of all creation visible and invisible. This enslavement keeps men from comprehending that which is appearing in their lives today results from their prenatal conditioning, their racial and religious roots, education, and personal experiences of thinking, because thoughts are the conditioners of life by way of the senses. And because man has not made the exodus from the darkness of sight, sound, emotion, flavor, odor and touch in an effort to draw near to God "with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having their heart sprinkled FROM AN EVIL CONSCIENCE, and their bodies washed with pure water," they have made themselves children "of trangression, a seed of falsehood, inflaming themselves with idols," whose essence is of the universal human mind, and substance the imaginative illusion the human mind produce.

Men cannot see what their minds do not comprehend. Illumination has never come to anyone living from a conditioned mind. Man is either born with an overwhelming wanton for illumination -which did not, nor does not begin within the dimension of birth- or something intervenes in their lives turning them to God. Turning to God is not reading the Scriptures, memorizing them, not attemptings to live a good and moral life. Turning to God is dropping all concepts, opinion, theories, and absorption of things they have interpreted and which has been interpreted to them. It means letting go of intellectualism religion, and letting the True Teacher take over one's learning.

Until this has came to pass; until men have set their feet upon the path which will begin their journey to fulfill the covenant they made with the Father, their minds are in the same predicament of running and hiding, and covering themselves with the leaves of their own thought iniquities as so did Adam and Eve, when they attempted to hide from the VOICE of God WALKING through the garden.

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Good post. But I'm not sure who/what you're trying to rebutt. Please clarify.
Were you just making a statement? Were you trying to comment on the lessons of the Tao?

??
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Re: Studying the Tao Te Ching

Postby Diebert van Rhijn » Sun Apr 10, 2011 6:00 am

wanghuanju wrote:Studying the Tao Te Ching and the Taoist Way of Lao-Tzu I would directly state that it is not at all a rejection of the feminized spirit in favor of the masculine and then forward into Enlightenment.

What do you think is meant with "feminized spirit" in the context you have not even named? As far as I know the context of this forum is often wisdom versus ignorance, and not active energy versus passive energy.
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Re: Studying the Tao Te Ching

Postby Sphere70 » Sun Apr 10, 2011 6:25 am

Diebert: What do you think is meant with "feminized spirit" in the context you have not even named? As far as I know the context of this forum is often wisdom versus ignorance, and not active energy versus passive energy.

Well, I'm not sure what Wanghuanju meant when copy/pasting that line, but for me the division is crudely made in the aspect: thoughts = masculine / emotions = feminine. It could also - rather - be defined in terms of the Apollonian / Dionysian (Nietzsche - The Birth of Tragedy).
The Self - which is undiluted consciousness separated and made aware of itself by the necessity of a body - is neither / or rather an equal amount, if you will, of Dionysian / Apollonian. Thoughts and Emotions happen through this Self - or upon it, depending on your outlook. It is simple really and the plainest English will do.

So again - as I see it: Non Dualistic Consciousness (which is Everything) appears dualistic when operating through bodies (which is a necessity for the consciousness to experience itself). Thoughts and Emotions are its tools - but only (!) extensions of this Self / Dualistic Consciousness. Therefore - inquire and perceive the Self, which is always with us during our waking hours and always highly perceivable. That is - abide in it and rational dissection happens autonomously - if it is even necessary at that point. This is all we can do. Non-dualism is, for other purposes then entertainment, of no use talking about because of its impossibility to be experienced and dressed in words.
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Re: Studying the Tao Te Ching

Postby Diebert van Rhijn » Sun Apr 10, 2011 7:08 am

Sphere70 wrote: for me the division is crudely made in the aspect: thoughts = masculine / emotions = feminine. It could also - rather - be defined in terms of the Apollonian / Dionysian (Nietzsche - The Birth of Tragedy).

It seems a bit much to link the unreasonable, illogical and chaotic character of the Dionysian to women or the feminine. Don't you think? It would be more interesting to use the Freudian ID or subconscious to link to the Dionysian instead. Nietzsche was also very interested in what he called intuition as a ruling influence. If you'd look at what Spinoza did with that term, this as well the Dionysian impulse might take on another meaning altogether: the divine link to existence, a direct spontaneous understanding and acting which is something entirely different from our everyday sensing and feeling or opining.

As for "emotions = feminine", this only works for me when seeing emotions as pure "social emotions", that is the exchange and expression of various emotional states like shame, pride, laughter, giggling, anger and such. The feminine appears as more social and network oriented and might therefore more inclined to approach life like this because of some cultural or even genetic reason. I think the issue of having feelings is another matter altogether and not gender related at all. This seems often misunderstood.

A feminized mind, following the idea above, would be for example a mind engrossed with social functioning and appearances. And also materialistic to the degree the materials or possession invoke a strong emotional response, especially in a social context.
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Re: Studying the Tao Te Ching

Postby jufa » Sun Apr 10, 2011 11:18 am

Good post. But I'm not sure who/what you're trying to rebutt. Please clarify.
Were you just making a statement? Were you trying to comment on the lessons of the Tao?


Just making a statement.

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Re: Studying the Tao Te Ching

Postby Sphere70 » Sun Apr 10, 2011 12:06 pm

Diebert: It seems a bit much to link the unreasonable, illogical and chaotic character of the Dionysian to women or the feminine. Don't you think? It would be more interesting to use the Freudian ID or subconscious to link to the Dionysian instead. Nietzsche was also very interested in what he called intuition as a ruling influence. If you'd look at what Spinoza did with that term, this as well the Dionysian impulse might take on another meaning altogether: the divine link to existence, a direct spontaneous understanding and acting which is something entirely different from our everyday sensing and feeling or opining.

As for "emotions = feminine", this only works for me when seeing emotions as pure "social emotions", that is the exchange and expression of various emotional states like shame, pride, laughter, giggling, anger and such. The feminine appears as more social and network oriented and might therefore more inclined to approach life like this because of some cultural or even genetic reason. I think the issue of having feelings is another matter altogether and not gender related at all. This seems often misunderstood.

A feminized mind, following the idea above, would be for example a mind engrossed with social functioning and appearances. And also materialistic to the degree the materials or possession invoke a strong emotional response, especially in a social context.


------

Well, you’re viewing the Dionysian from an all to Apollonian viewpoint. Let’s not forget the more important quality of the Dionysian – the closeness and willingness to experience. And second, I just want to make clear that even though I used/use the labels feminine/masculine (to explain the mirage-like dualistic qualities of the non-dual expressed through bodies) and equaled them to the Dionysian/Apollonian, I don’t divide them in different degrees between the Male and Female. The Being that gets divided in bodies (male or female) are of equal proportions of these qualities – regardless of gender, and to invest time in grading male and female in different pillars of so-called spirituality is to me a power surging act.

Of course in the route of our lifetime we may loose perception in identifications within the regions of thoughts and emotions exposed upon us by culture and other factors – and a whole range of causes can be addressed to why the different genders and types-of-individuals behave in different ways - but this is not of my interest because it is in the furthest distance of the manifestation, and while it may be a problem from a certain relative viewpoint, it is even a bigger problem for us to concern and dissect why this is so, taking us away from that which we really are, the Self uncontaminated by structure and sentiment – let’s leave the other inquiries to the psychoanalysts who, at least, can make a profitable career out of it.

For me the Self is therefore of equal qualities of masculine / feminine, and to gravitate and invest in the earnest curiosity of the very bottom of the manifested consciousness (which is to experiencing and investigate the closets aspects of the illusion labeled Maya) will by itself create the necessary balance of these contrasts (feminine/masculine). So just as it is “dangerous” to, in one hand, employ ourselves in the strictly Dionysian side of the striving Self – it is equally devastating to wither away in the cellars of the moldy, English, libraries that constitutes the total Apollonian / Masculine perspective.
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Re: Studying the Tao Te Ching

Postby Diebert van Rhijn » Sun Apr 10, 2011 6:59 pm

Sphere70 wrote: Let’s not forget the more important quality of the Dionysian – the closeness and willingness to experience.

But do you think this has any bearing at all on how things work out in gender roles? What is it about women or the "feminine psyche" which would desire closeness and willingness to experience? One can make the argument that women think more "body-centered" in terms of care and sensation, but that's just still one subset of experiences. The experiences of travel, adventure, fight, silliness, drunkenness and so on have traditionally been called masculine inclinations.

Although you quickly reject the grading of male and female qualities into "pillars", and you stress equal qualities of both in a "self", you were introducing this "crudely" made division between thought and emotions, the Apollonian and Dionysian as a way to describe things. But after doing that you seem to distance yourself from this categorization. But please remember you made these distinctions in the first place but then devalues them the moment they're being being quizzed? That's how it seems like to me right now at least.

There are more questions: what does it mean: "equal qualities" and "necessary balance"? The exact mix in terms of numbers appears to impossible to gauge and loses meaning quickly upon scrutiny. What if the balance is 95% of one and 5% of the other? The whole notion of balance doesn't seem to add much beyond theory. If you mean equality in terms of human beings, there's no doubt about it, as long as these human beings stop debasing themselves first. In any way the real experience of life and our society is certainly not balanced and never was. What if the "masculine side" would be a destabilizing, anti-balancing force to begin with? How would you ever mix this into "stability"?

It's perhaps time to abandon idealistic, "Apollonian" ideals of sex balance and equality, and look beyond treating the genders as cake mix ingredients.
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Re: Studying the Tao Te Ching

Postby Sphere70 » Fri Apr 15, 2011 9:30 am

It might not have any bearings considering the gender-roles, those being influenced of a higher (and possible total) degree by social/culture. I was considering the Spirit/the Self (which I once again declare in believing is a dualistic illusion of a non-dual absolute) being a "cake-mix" (why not ,-) of these two contrast that we experience as different (and which in their ultimate sense are not). But yes, I agree with you, it is not of importance to label them either Dionysian / Apollonian, Female / Masculine for the sake of deeper knowledge into ones own being. But I just wanted to stretch the even greater unessential mapping out of the psychological characteristics of the male/female (as genders formed by relative surroundings) in terms of personalities (that is the Self forgetting itself in the images/sensations of its tools) - for me the only thing necessary to see is that ALL identifications with either the rational or the emotional aspects of the mind is delusional. Their use is not for mapping out and finding an underlying reality or experiencing the underlying reality via emotions but for tasks considering survival. That's why I'm stretching the unnecessary practice of this kind of psychological "blueprinting" in terms of abiding in the non-abstract reality (emotions / thoughts = abstractions). And, of course, being in a non-abstract reality is, hopefully, preferred =). This means, naturally, that the images that comes with thoughts and the sensations that arise as emotions should not be avoided nor seeked out - but should come and go as they well please, viewed from the abidance of the non-abstract self (which in an absolute sense is an abstraction, but in the relative sense of 'experiencing' a separate "I" in a time-bound space is not). Therefore, forgetfulness in these occurrences will not happen and neurotic problems with identity and attachment will not arise - without the silly idea of living as an ascetic (Schopenhauer, you ol' fool ,-). This - to me - is the only important step to an even "deeper" introspection, clearly possible for all genders and races, of all levels of "intelligence". All that takes is an honest and earnest curiosity. Nisargadatta was obviously not a learned man, but according to me he reached much further in terms of "Ultimate Reality" (or "the Infinite" as I've seen it labeled here) than the much more "intelligent" and psychologically "complex" Nietzsche (keep in mind that I really like Nietzsche).
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Re: Studying the Tao Te Ching

Postby Diebert van Rhijn » Sun Apr 17, 2011 8:13 pm

Sphere70 wrote: for me the only thing necessary to see is that ALL identifications with either the rational or the emotional aspects of the mind is delusional.

The more direct question is not if any identification is delusional but which mindsets are conductive to such wisdom and which not. For this reason some relative, contemporary designations can have a lot of power to clarify. It's the same with expressions like Yin and Yang.

Nisargadatta was obviously not a learned man, but according to me he reached much further in terms of "Ultimate Reality" than the much more "intelligent" and psychologically "complex" Nietzsche.

That might be so but each teaching brings forth its own set of delusions. Wisdom arises from within a context and in that context functions a certain way - a 'wise way' but that phrase might be ultimately unnecessarily repetitive.
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