The Meaning of Life

Discussion of the nature of Ultimate Reality and the path to Enlightenment.

Re: The Meaning of Life

Postby Carmel » Fri Nov 26, 2010 12:48 pm

jupiviv:

...and you are evidently too stupid to understand them. But don't fret - there is always the warm, assuaging, and even subtly erotic voice of a theoretical physicist talking on the radio to make you feel good about yourself.

Carmel:
Is this how self proclaimed "enlightened" people talk jupiviv?

What you don't seem to understand is that when you say things like this all you're really doing is revealing yourself as a fraud, though it wouldn't be first time and I'm sure it won't be the last. Furthermore, a physicist has far more to offer me than your simplistic 1+1=2, or a circle can't be a square. As for demonstrating some "deep sounding" examples of absolute truth, I'm still waiting on those...but, frankly I think I'd prefer to read David's thoughts on the matter as he seems to possess a far greater grasp on the matter, but thanks for your time nonetheless :)
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Re: The Meaning of Life

Postby jupiviv » Fri Nov 26, 2010 1:50 pm

David Quinn wrote:We can't jump outside our own neural net and experience what lies beyond. Not even Buddhas can do this.


Why not? If someone is conscious of a neural net then he is "beyond" it.

A fully conscious being is simply one who is fully conscious of reality, which includes the reality that his own consciousness is necessarily limited when it comes to being aware of all the little details in the world.


He may not be able to perceive the "little details", as you say, with his senses. But through logic, it is possible to be aware of the fact that the "I" exists and everything that is not the "I" also exists.
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Re: The Meaning of Life

Postby m4tt_666 » Fri Nov 26, 2010 1:56 pm

if you perceive to be experiencing absolute truth consciously, you are in turn refuting the actual truth of whatever object or idea that you are reflecting upon.

absolute truth is gained by way of a genuine state of unawareness.
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Re: The Meaning of Life

Postby jupiviv » Fri Nov 26, 2010 1:57 pm

Carmel wrote:What you don't seem to understand is that when you say things like this all you're really doing is revealing yourself as a fraud, though it wouldn't be first time and I'm sure it won't be the last.


I may have been mean, but what I said is 100% true, and you are yet to even respond to what I said. All you've done is talk about how I can't comprehend your answer, which I still haven't seen you post.

As for demonstrating some "deep sounding" examples of absolute truth, I'm still waiting on those...but, frankly I think I'd prefer to read David's thoughts on the matter as he seems to possess a far greater grasp on the matter, but thanks for your time nonetheless :)


I see you still haven't understood the meaning of those simple examples. All definitions are absolute, universal truths, by definition - be they "simple" or complex. A person who denounces the value of any definition just because it's "simple," and thinks that a more "complex" definition is somehow inherently better or more intellectually enriching, is basically an idiot. Unfortunately, you are such a person.
Last edited by jupiviv on Fri Nov 26, 2010 2:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The Meaning of Life

Postby Carmel » Fri Nov 26, 2010 2:07 pm

jupiviv:
I may have been mean, but what I said is 100% true, and you are yet to even respond to what I said. All you've done is talk about how I can't comprehend your answer, which I still haven't seen you post.

Carmel:
I have no interest in discussing any of this with you, based on your responses to David, it's clear to me that you have little understanding of the philosophies here, you haven't gone beyond rudimentary logic. i.e. 1+1=2, a circle can't be a square.

jupiviv:
I see you still haven't understood the meaning of those simple examples.

Carmel:
You're trolling me, kid. Give it a rest.
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Re: The Meaning of Life

Postby m4tt_666 » Fri Nov 26, 2010 2:15 pm

argumentum ad hominem, is an attempt to link the validity of a premise to a characteristic or belief of the person advocating the premise. -Wikipedia
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Re: The Meaning of Life

Postby jupiviv » Fri Nov 26, 2010 2:21 pm

Carmel wrote:I have no interest in discussing any of this with you, based on your responses to David, it's clear to me that you have little understanding of the philosophies here, you haven't gone beyond rudimentary logic. i.e. 1+1=2, a circle can't be a square.


They are examples meant to prove a point(I edited my last post and explained it), which you haven't understood. I've made quite a few other posts which don't involve saying 1+1=2 or a square circle can't exist.

It also amuses me that you are holding David Quinn in higher regard than me just because he's been nice to you, whereas he's given the same examples I have to make the same argument. David seems to like gossiping pleasantly with you, but I'd just rather be mean and insulting. That's just me, I guess.
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Re: The Meaning of Life

Postby Carmel » Fri Nov 26, 2010 2:39 pm

jupiviv:
It also amuses me that you are holding David Quinn in higher regard than me just because he's been nice to you, whereas he's given the same examples I have to make the same argument.

Carmel:
I hold him in higher regard because he is by far your intellectual superior and takes philososhical concepts far above and beyond the level of which you are currently capable. He also demonstrates through word and action a higher degree of wisdom. i.e. We've gotten into a few heated discussion in the past, but he has the capacity to let it go(detachment) and move on. I don't see this ability in you.

jupiviv:
David seems to like gossiping pleasantly with you, but I'd just rather be mean and insulting. That's just me, I guess.

Carmel:
It is you and it will remain you until you realize that your current mode of communication is neither effective, nor wise.
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Re: The Meaning of Life

Postby jupiviv » Fri Nov 26, 2010 2:53 pm

It's telling that you think you are qualified to judge me when you are doing the exact same things you are accusing me of doing. But I will concede that David Quinn shows more integrity in his "actions" than I do.
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Re: The Meaning of Life

Postby m4tt_666 » Fri Nov 26, 2010 3:13 pm

it is within everyone's capacity to pass judgment and be judged the same. the trick is how open one can be when executing this procedure without compromising ones own logical foundation.

restating the obvious is only serving to compound your original thoughts with needless encumbrance and negate its true identity.
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Re: The Meaning of Life

Postby guest_of_logic » Fri Nov 26, 2010 9:28 pm

Dennis Mahar wrote:Laird,

Too much for you to accept the reality that Kevin is talking about biological women, huh coach?


It's not that simple Laird.
In the World of Laird there appears to be something at stake for Laird in relation to Kevin's position.
This 'at stakeness' holds a certain irritability and discontent.

If you could open up about that then we can get access beyond this gestalt of 'holding a gun at someone's head' which has us stuck.


Dennis, when you work out that this is not about me, but about your fear and reluctance to publicly recognise the gross bias and falsity in the collated quotes on women, then get back to me. Until then...
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Re: The Meaning of Life

Postby Russell » Sat Nov 27, 2010 12:08 am

jupiviv wrote:It's telling that you think you are qualified to judge me when you are doing the exact same things you are accusing me of doing. But I will concede that David Quinn shows more integrity in his "actions" than I do.


I'm not convinced that David actually sees potential for true wisdom in Carmel. I think he's just providing good reading material for everyone else that can see where he's coming from with his responses.

He may not be able to perceive the "little details", as you say, with his senses. But through logic, it is possible to be aware of the fact that the "I" exists and everything that is not the "I" also exists.


While this is true, you cannot deny that the presence of consciousness arises with the functions of the brain. Our consciousness is caused by the neural processes of our evolved brains and senses, it does not come from somewhere else. I think this is the point David is making as well.
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Re: The Meaning of Life

Postby m4tt_666 » Sat Nov 27, 2010 12:22 am

you cannot prove beyond doubt consciousness arises only when there is a 'brain' to create it. you cannot deny the fact that our consciousness may be a separate being from our complete physical makeup. you cannot deny this fact, simply because i have thought of it. denial of this fact would be futile because it has just as much fact behind it as all the brain sciences does that may prove otherwise with the difference being in evidence. i've provided mental evidence of my theory which is just as reasonable as physical experimentation.
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Re: The Meaning of Life

Postby Carmel » Sat Nov 27, 2010 12:34 am

bluerap:
I'm not convinced that David actually sees potential for true wisdom in Carmel. I think he's just providing good reading material for everyone else that can see where he's coming from with his responses.

Carmel:
smallmindedness and petty gossip and...don't get stuck there or you will never develop your own capacity for "true wisdom".

bluerap:
While this is true, you cannot deny that the presence of consciousness arises with the functions of the brain. Our consciousness is caused by the neural processes of our evolved brains and senses, it does not come from somewhere else. I think this is the point David is making as well.

Carmel:
yes, that was exactly the point he was to trying make. Our consciousness can't go beyond our limited scope of perceptions, thoughts and memories.
Last edited by Carmel on Sat Nov 27, 2010 2:04 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The Meaning of Life

Postby Russell » Sat Nov 27, 2010 12:49 am

m4tt_666 wrote:you cannot prove beyond doubt consciousness arises only when there is a 'brain' to create it. you cannot deny the fact that our consciousness may be a separate being from our complete physical makeup.


You're right, these are my views.

To clear up a couple of things, I didn't say that our brain creates our consciousness, but that they arise together. As far as I can see, one cannot exist without the other. Suggesting that the two are completely separate entities sounds like a science fiction to entertain the imagination. It doesn't make much sense beyond that.
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Re: The Meaning of Life

Postby m4tt_666 » Sat Nov 27, 2010 1:01 am

i agree, i believe that since we're assaulted constantly with overwhelming physical senses on a recurring basis most people find it impossible to hold the fact that i believe, there to be a separate reality altogether from the physical world as we see, to as you said, provide that support system to allow existence itself, to exist.
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Re: The Meaning of Life

Postby Carmel » Sat Nov 27, 2010 1:13 am

jupiviv:
All definitions are absolute, universal truths, by definition - be they "simple" or complex.

Carmel:
No, all definitions are not absolute, universal truths. You have built your entire thought system on this erroneous idea and this is why you have no idea what is going on at this forum.
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Re: The Meaning of Life

Postby Carmel » Sat Nov 27, 2010 1:39 am

David:
Eliminating from the mind all belief in logical impossibilities is the essence of wisdom. For example, the belief that things can objectively exit.

Carmel:
That's true. Things don't objectively exist, yet they do exist...

How then, would you describe their existence?
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Re: The Meaning of Life

Postby cousinbasil » Sat Nov 27, 2010 3:25 am

David Quinn wrote:Jupiviv is right, actually. Absolute knowledge is indeed defined to be knowledge that is necessarily true in all times and places. It isn't something which is merely true in somes places and not others. It isn't contigent upon the arisal of a particular set of circumstances, or the appearance of particular empirical evidence, or the adoption of a particular perspective, or the consensus of a particular number of people. It is necessarily true for all circumstances, perspectives, and people. It is a form of knowledge that cannot be falsified under any circumstances whatsoever.

The fact that this different type of knowledge exists dawned on me at about 5 years of age, when I realized things like 2+3=3+2=5 would always be true and that it was impossible for anyone to change that. I can still recall the monumental impact this had on me. At the time, everything seemed to be subject to change, seemed to be controlled by grownups, or at least by someone else. No one had made this type of statement true, and so no one could make its truth go away or diminish it. No one had control over it. And now that I knew it, I felt the power of that knowledge. I began looking for other things that hit me with the same feeling of certainty. I was drawn to mathematics from then on. I found that feeling to be telling over the course of my studies. If, for example, I labored over a calculus or physics problem until I reached a solution, and that feeling of certainty did not strike, my results were sometimes in error. But when it did strike, it seemed as if I never was in error. As David points out, most "knowledge" is not absolute. Correspondingly, most knowledge never gives me that feeling of certainty that a rigorous mathematical proof does.

One treats these different types of knowledge differently, I find. Once one has made the necessary effort to acquire the absolute kind of knowledge, no further effort is required. One may recall the knowledge or not recall it; however, if it is ever recalled, its truth is immediately as clear as clear can be. For any other type of knowledge, if circumstances cause it to be recalled, there remains the immediate task of ascertaining if the knowledge, not being absolute, is true in the given circumstances.
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Re: The Meaning of Life

Postby jupiviv » Sat Nov 27, 2010 3:44 am

Carmel wrote:No, all definitions are not absolute, universal truths.


All definitions are based on A=A, which is an absolute truth. If a definition does not establish A=A, then it is not a definition, by definition. An example of such a false definition is a square circle. "Square" and "circle" are two different definitions, so they can't be equated with each other.
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Re: The Meaning of Life

Postby m4tt_666 » Sat Nov 27, 2010 3:48 am

4+1=1+4=5, by your undeniable logic i yield the same result through an equally different process within the given confines of mathematics.

i question the competence of creation.
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Re: The Meaning of Life

Postby Carmel » Sat Nov 27, 2010 4:03 am

jupiviv:
All definitions are based on A=A, which is an absolute truth. If a definition does not establish A=A, then it is not a definition, by definition. An example of such a false definition is a square circle. "Square" and "circle" are two different definitions, so they can't be equated with each other.

Carmel:
yes, but it's easy to establish A=A when you're dealing with simplistic logic like a circle isn't a square. Questions regarding valid definitions inevitably arise along the way when we attempt to turn the philosophic absolute truth of A=A into an "absolute truth" of Ultimate Reality, The Totality, infinity etc.
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Re: The Meaning of Life

Postby Dennis Mahar » Sat Nov 27, 2010 4:21 am

Laird,
When you work out this is not about me


It is about you in the sense that you hold a position in relation to Kevin that opposes him.

but about your fear and reluctance to publicly recognise the gross bias and falsity in the collated quotes on women, then get back to me. Until then...


I'm only interested in what it means to actually hold a position and what that does or what follows from holding it.

Until then


that means you need to be in control of it.

Why can't it be an inquiry?

Let me ask, what does holding your position cost you?
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Re: The Meaning of Life

Postby jupiviv » Sat Nov 27, 2010 4:33 am

Carmel wrote:Questions regarding valid definitions inevitably arise along the way when we attempt to turn the philosophic absolute truth of A=A into an "absolute truth" of Ultimate Reality, The Totality, infinity etc.


If we define Ultimate Reality to be "everything" then it is a valid definition. If we define Ultimate Reality to be a pencil, then that is also a valid definition. It is only invalid if you define Ultimate Reality as the feeling of happiness or security, or as some sort of a "whole" which we can't see but is nevertheless "there", and then say that that is identical to everything.
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Re: The Meaning of Life

Postby Carmel » Sat Nov 27, 2010 4:46 am

So then, what is your definition of "Ultimate Reality"?
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