Geert Wilders, Dutch anti-Islamist

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Re: Geert Wilders, Dutch anti-Islamist

Postby Diebert van Rhijn » Wed May 12, 2010 1:35 am

Alex T. Jacob wrote:I think the definitions I offered are those of Jacques Ellul.

Ellul, probably he'd say the problem was with the "ism", any "ism", the cheap "simplism" of it.

But you must remember that I spend a great deal of my time in so-called underdeveloped cultures.

It certainly explains your reactionary, frustrated vibe which distorts your reasoning. You should try to settle where you belong otherwise the alienation gets to you; the resentiment. Something also present in your fiction, now I come to think of it.

I've never gotten the sense you have any practical experience in handling people or property

I do not "handle" anything or anyone at all, nor do I drink milk anymore. But you are clearly still a handler, fondler, grabber, never outgrown the playpen!

It does take a certain amount of 'balls'---real balls, not theoretical Dutch balls---to put oneself on the line and take a stand in a practical sense.

Hitler had real balls too then, I can see how easy your type would fall for suckers like him. The little Nazi is just waiting to crawl out and yell, really, really loud at the world, but for now in the closet of this forum. Idiot!

Fellow party MP demands more democracy in Wilders' party

Geert Wilders' Freedom Party (PVV) has up to now been ruled by the will of a single man: Geert Wilders himself. There are no members, no party congresses, no youth or women's organisations, no party elections. In short, no democracy.

Now, in the run up to the parliamentary elections, prominent Freedom Party MP Hero Brinkman is challenging the party's structure. He believes it is time to create more democracy alongside the freedom.

The MP ... also attracted negative press last year after hitting a barman who refused to serve him. He subsequently admitted having a drink problem*.


*) and last March he got into several fights with his contractor and both filed charges of physical abuse and attempted manslaughter.
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Re: Geert Wilders, Dutch anti-Islamist

Postby Alex T. Jacob » Wed May 12, 2010 4:56 am

"Every man has reminiscences which he would not tell to everyone but only his friends. He has other matters in his mind which he would not reveal even to his friends, but only to himself and that in secret. But there are things which a man is afraid to tell even to himself, and every decent man has a number of such things stored away in his mind."

---Dostoyevsky
___________________________________________

Where I come from, if a barman won't serve you, you smack him, and that's that. No one would put up with that shit, and no one would say anything about it. No one should! What is going on over there in Holland anyway?!

What is UP with you people? I just don't get it...

"...nor do I drink milk anymore".

Oh and I shoulda known! I'd have added that to the list. A soy milk drinker no doubt! Your transcendence has so far outstepped mankind's that even your stomach can no longer digest lactose! You feed on ambrosia!

"...but for now in the closet of this forum".

But not for long! But not for long!

"In solitude and when fatigued, one is after all inclined to take oneself for a prophet. When all is said and done, that's really what I am, having taken refuge in a desert of stones, fogs, and stagnant waters--an empty prophet for shabby times, Elijah without a messiah, choked with fever and alcohol, my back up against this moldy door, my finger raised toward a threatening sky, showering imprecations on lawless men who cannot endure any judgment."

---Jean-Baptiste Clamance in La Chute [Camus]

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Re: Geert Wilders, Dutch anti-Islamist

Postby Tomas » Wed May 26, 2010 10:12 am

.

-Alex T. Jacob-
Dan called him a 'right-wing shithead' which is slightly different. When Diebert gets him in his
sight (like seeing through those x-ray glasses they sell out of comic books) he sees 'Indo-fascist'.

-tomas-
From my political perspective (through the eyes of European intrigue) he's clearly left-wing fascist. It's just the opposite of the way American "politics" (which literally means: many blood-sucking creatures) delves into the personal nuances of people like Obama & Palin versus the 'professional politicians' like Joe Biden and John McCain. The oddity is that Obama, Biden and McCain are right-wing "international" fascists molded to the old Soviet Union-way of thinking. Sarah Palin would be construed to be a left-wing international Soviet apologist in that she would keep the troops nearer the US Homeland to keep the "illegals" out of the southern U.S. border area.

Witness Arizona: Obama has reversed course on illegal immigration and will now be sending 1,200 National Guard troops to Arizona, about 5% of what he's sending to Afghanistan to fight on Pakistan's border to keep "illegals" (supported and financed by Israel, no less). Why wouldn't Pakistan be nervous about supporting more U.S. intrigue in the tribal areas? This is where Palin/McCain/Obama/Biden are all gung-ho about killing all the tribal peoples who get in the way of our 'economic interests' in the area. It is some of the very few areas of the earth (world) to come under the UN Flag. Read New International Order just espoused by Barack Obama himself.


Alex-
These labels and designations are more properly techniques of 'seeing' to keep one from seeing. The interesting thing, the unfortunate thing, is that both the right and left-wing polarities, generally speaking, use such lenses of perception to 'see' and 'explain' the other, but when they get done the issue is confused, you can't see properly.

-tomas-
But of course :-(

Yup. But the professional porch monkey politicians and mass media (the corporate running dogs) are paid handsomely to keep the populaces under their jack-boot.


-Alex-
This is the coinage of our age. This kind of 'thinking', coming from such 'accomplished intellects' (*guffaws*) seems to suggest more lack of having a clue.

-tomas-
The mass media molded us from childhood. When will we ever learn. More taxes=less services. Cradle-to-grave pacifiers.

Too bad there aren't more Geert Wilders and Sarah Palins out there. Vestiges of the "last gasp" theory.

More later as time permits (provided war in the Korean Peninsula doesn't break out by Memorial Day).
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Re: Geert Wilders, Dutch anti-Islamist

Postby Conservationist » Tue Jul 06, 2010 3:11 am

Why would you have anyone but indigenous Europeans in Europe?
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Re: Geert Wilders, Dutch anti-Islamist

Postby Diebert van Rhijn » Tue Jul 06, 2010 8:32 am

Conservationist wrote:Why would you have anyone but indigenous Europeans in Europe?

You mean the West-Asian continent?

Hard to define indigenous really. Civilization wise you could speak of "Christendom" and build a case, wiping out all that's indigenous but still "unchristian" along the way. Since racial theories are dead in the water, segregationist proposals need at least some new intellectual, scientific framework but it never seems to be coming along.

Bottom line is: people always have moved and mingled. And always with some stress around it as it signified change people didn't believe in but yet it happens. All that matters is: only the strong can offer welcome as how could they ever be moved over?
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Re: Geert Wilders, Dutch anti-Islamist

Postby Conservationist » Tue Jul 06, 2010 12:20 pm

Diebert van Rhijn wrote:Hard to define indigenous really.


I would do so ethnically:

http://www.amerika.org/2009/social-real ... s-of-race/

A useful compilation of resources there.
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Re: Geert Wilders, Dutch anti-Islamist

Postby Diebert van Rhijn » Wed Jul 07, 2010 1:18 am

One could just as well make a point that gene (expression) starts to differ as a result of geographical clustering of groups. One should hesitate turning it around and claim geographical clustering would be justified in any way because of genetics. Actually history shows many great movements around the globe which all point to a natural periodic exchange of genetic material between ethnic groups, sometimes by force and invasion, sometimes by peaceful immersion.

Anyway, are you implying immigrated East-European Jews should seize their claims on Israel, as their genetics are less linked to the region than the Palestinians are?
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Re: Geert Wilders, Dutch anti-Islamist

Postby Conservationist » Wed Jul 07, 2010 1:40 am

Diebert van Rhijn wrote:One could just as well make a point that gene (expression) starts to differ as a result of geographical clustering of groups. One should hesitate turning it around and claim geographical clustering would be justified in any way because of genetics. Actually history shows many great movements around the globe which all point to a natural periodic exchange of genetic material between ethnic groups, sometimes by force and invasion, sometimes by peaceful immersion.

Anyway, are you implying immigrated East-European Jews should seize their claims on Israel, as their genetics are less linked to the region than the Palestinians are?


First, I disagree with your science. Jewish genetics (including cohanim markers) clearly identify both Sephardim and Ashkenazim as belonging to a population originating in Israel, probably as a result of mixture between Southern Europeans, Asiatics and Phoenician-like tribes in the area.

Next, I think you've only got part of the causal idea. Why did some tribes head to different geographical areas, if we posit a common human origin? Choices were made, and those choices shaped those tribes.

Finally: yes, I do respect diversity -- and while periodic mixing did occur, as you can see it did not alter the tribes such that we cannot recognize them visually and through genetic data. We can by analyzing DNA identify the origin of a person not just by race, but by ethny.

I am pro-Israel because I am inspired by this genius: Jews will not be safe, or happy, or continue evolving, until they have a land for Jewish people and the preservation of their culture, values, languages, customs and ethnic heritage.

Regarding Palestinians: wouldn't they be happier in Jordan, Syria and Egypt, instead of being the Mexicans of Israel?
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Re: Geert Wilders, Dutch anti-Islamist

Postby Diebert van Rhijn » Wed Jul 07, 2010 2:10 am

Conservationist wrote:First, I disagree with your science. Jewish genetics (including cohanim markers) clearly identify both Sephardim and Ashkenazim as belonging to a population originating in Israel, probably as a result of mixture between Southern Europeans, Asiatics and Phoenician-like tribes in the area.

As far as I know this is rather outdated and heavily disputed stuff, in many ways interpretable. Do you have any recent research I could comment on? Just list the best one or two, so we could focus on them.

Why did some tribes head to different geographical areas, if we posit a common human origin? Choices were made, and those choices shaped those tribes.

IT might be that cause and effect have formed a kind of mesh, where it's hard to say what comes first. But most importantly, nothing is fixed in stone. One can discuss about speed of changes, but not on the necessity, the inescapability of change.

and while periodic mixing did occur, as you can see it did not alter the tribes such that we cannot recognize them visually and through genetic data. We can by analyzing DNA identify the origin of a person not just by race, but by ethny.

Not sure what you mean by that. In the long run various important alterations took place. There are certainly no "root races" or do you think there are?

Jews will not be safe, or happy, or continue evolving, until they have a land for Jewish people and the preservation of their culture, values, languages, customs and ethnic heritage.

For thousands of years, with a short break, they have done quite well to keep their (cultural/religious) identity without a land to call "their own". And the reality on the ground is as such that the sanest thing to strive for is a multi-ethnic nation where one can safeguard ones rights through the law, and not by declaring some identity for the state. Arab states need to learn this, too. It's a thing all modern nations do when they mature.

Regarding Palestinians: wouldn't they be happier in Jordan, Syria and Egypt, instead of being the Mexicans of Israel?

Like Jews would be way happier and safer in the USA, Poland or Germany. Yet many choose otherwise.
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Re: Geert Wilders, Dutch anti-Islamist

Postby Conservationist » Wed Jul 07, 2010 3:07 am

Diebert van Rhijn wrote:
Conservationist wrote:As far as I know this is rather outdated and heavily disputed stuff, in many ways interpretable. Do you have any recent research I could comment on? Just list the best one or two, so we could focus on them.


Here's a good list of recent resources:

http://www.amerika.org/2009/social-real ... s-of-race/
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Re: Geert Wilders, Dutch anti-Islamist

Postby Diebert van Rhijn » Wed Jul 07, 2010 7:56 am

There's nothing as far I can see in your article about Jewish genetics, cohanim markers or mix-ins with Phoenician-like tribes in the article. And is it so hard just to post a relevant name and link, directly? Did you comprehend my challenge?
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Re: Geert Wilders, Dutch anti-Islamist

Postby Conservationist » Wed Jul 07, 2010 1:54 pm

Diebert van Rhijn wrote:And is it so hard just to post a relevant name and link, directly?


I did. It's a list of resources. If that's unacceptable, the problem is on your end and not mine.

When you're asking about a complex field, if you want one answer, you're going to get a compilation. Here are others:

http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/ ... -question/

http://www.khazaria.com/genetics/abstracts.html
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Re: Geert Wilders, Dutch anti-Islamist

Postby Diebert van Rhijn » Thu Jul 08, 2010 7:35 am

Conservationist wrote: When you're asking about a complex field, if you want one answer, you're going to get a compilation.

From your first resource, which you haven't spend time reading perhaps:

...these studies do not attempt to determine any Jewish gene. During a scientific conference in 2003 in the United States, the Jewish American biologist Robert Pollack, Columbia University and several scientists have clearly rejected the fact that we can determine the biologically "Jewishness" of an individual because there is simply no DNA sequence that is present among Jews and absent among non-Jews.


On the "cohanim marker" you mentioned , there's some about it here
the six-marker CMH was not specific just to Cohens, nor even just to Jews, but was a survival from the origins of Haplogroup J, about 30,000 years ago.


These haplogroups occur widely throughout the Middle East and beyond. Thus, while many Cohens have haplotypes close to the CMH, a greater number of such haplotypes worldwide belong to people with no likely Cohen connection at all.


Shlomo Sand wrote about all this latest DNA research in the last update of his book The Invention of the Jewish People: "It is a bitter irony to see the descendants of Holocaust survivors set out to find a biological Jewish identity: Hitler would certainly have been very pleased".

In the end, none of the latest research links to "origination in Israel" and cohanim markers are debunked as meaningless in this context as well.
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Re: Geert Wilders, Dutch anti-Islamist

Postby Conservationist » Thu Jul 08, 2010 7:40 am

...these studies do not attempt to determine any Jewish gene.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lewontin%27s_Fallacy

Yes, because they're trying to avoid that.
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Re: Geert Wilders, Dutch anti-Islamist

Postby Diebert van Rhijn » Thu Jul 08, 2010 7:56 am



Still you were obviously wrong introducing (meaningless) cohanim markers or whatever current research as evidence for "belonging to a population originating in Israel". It doesn't follow at all.
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Re: Geert Wilders, Dutch anti-Islamist

Postby Conservationist » Thu Jul 08, 2010 8:30 am

Diebert van Rhijn wrote:Still you were obviously wrong introducing (meaningless) cohanim markers or whatever current research as evidence for "belonging to a population originating in Israel". It doesn't follow at all.


You have misinterpreted the evidence.

http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/ ... -question/

Try reading the whole thing.
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Symposium: The Fear That Wilders is Right

Postby Tomas » Thu Jul 15, 2010 4:47 am

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Symposium: The Fear That Wilders is Right

In this special edition of Frontpage Symposium, we have assembled a distinguished panel to discuss the question: What psychological
impulses and neuroses prevent people from objectively considering whether or not Islam is a religion of peace? In other words: Why
the rigid disinclination to even consider the evidence that suggests that someone like Geert Wilders might be right?

Our guests today are: >> http://frontpagemag.com/2010/07/09/symp ... ight/print
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Wilders: Change Jordan's Name To Palestine

Postby Tomas » Sat Jul 17, 2010 8:48 am

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Geert Wilders: Change Jordan's Name To Palestine

AtlasShrugs.com

The idea of Palestine is a lie >> http://atlasshrugs2000.typepad.com/atla ... stine.html
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Geert Wilders: Muslims, Liberate Yourselves

Postby Tomas » Tue Aug 03, 2010 10:30 am

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Geert Wilders: Muslims, Liberate Yourselves

TUESDAY, July 20 2010

Geert Wilders was invited by muslimsdebate.com to present his message to Muslims.
His response (the original Dutch version) was published in NRC Handelsblad.

by Geert Wilders

I first visited an Islamic country in 1982. >> http://gatesofvienna.blogspot.com/2010/ ... erate.html
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Fears over Wilders' support for Dutch coalition

Postby Tomas » Wed Aug 04, 2010 2:48 am

Fears over Wilders' support for Dutch coalition

The VVD and the Christian Democrats have agreed to start negotiating a "confidence and supply" agreement later this week with Mr Wilders' Freedom party (PVV) in order to scrape together the required 76 seats needed to legislate.

"A rightwing government gives Wilders the power and makes governing hard because he can block every decision," Mr Roemer said. "The choice is between governing once now over a centre-left coalition or negotiating every day with the PVV in coming years."

Full story here >> http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/669288a0-9e68 ... ab49a.html
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Re: Geert Wilders: Muslims, Liberate Yourselves

Postby Diebert van Rhijn » Wed Aug 04, 2010 4:31 am

Tomas wrote:I first visited an Islamic country in 1982. >> http://gatesofvienna.blogspot.com/2010/ ... erate.html

When reading that piece one obvious fallacy stood out, one which might explain a bit more about Wilders.

    I was overwhelmed by the friendliness and helpfulness of the people.,,,,I also remember my second strong impression of Egypt: I noticed how frightened those nice, friendly people were.... I remember the fear is that suddenly flooded the city... and still feel the almost physical sense of fear, as a cold shiver on that sweltering hot summer day.
Wilders is not realizing how he might have smelt his own fear or even fascination with the power display, since he uses up until today constantly the language of fear, suspicion and escalation, it's hardly surprising he's getting cold shivers here. Unable to examine his own disposition he draws his own conclusions. Arab people are more emotive though and one senses their extreme friendliness as easy as any tensions and worries over even minor things. Again, this is something one would learn from a culture after being exposed to it a bit longer than one or two holidays.

    Qur’an how the seventh-century Arabs felt in the presence of Muhammad, who — as several verses describe — “strikes terror into their hearts”
This is in all religious texts, especially the Old Testament a quite common notion: to be "god fearing". It's not comparable with modern notions of terror. The term is generally understood as deep respect and reverance, seriousness, awe and awereness of what can only appear as omnipotence and omniscience, the 'ultimate law' giver and upholder. Like one could fear a Judge (and executioner at times). It could at times include basic fear for ones life too but this is not its main aspect.

Jer 5:22 (NIV) "Should you not fear me?" declares the Lord. "Should you not tremble in my presence?"
Psalms 2:11 Serve the Lord with fear and rejoice with trembling.
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Geert Wilders Warning to America

Postby Tomas » Mon Sep 20, 2010 6:54 am

.

Geert Wilders Warning to America

Part 1 >> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NQOCcx5V9RI
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