The Trump Derangement Syndrome: rational or irrational?

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jupiviv
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Re: The Trump Derangement Syndrome: rational or irrational?

Post by jupiviv » Sun Apr 09, 2017 3:02 am

Diebert van Rhijn wrote:Way too generic
Blasphemer! But seriously, if you compare our opinions about Trump expressed here over the past few months, it's pretty clear whose remains largely unchanged.

The first one was kind of generic but the second was spot on. In fact, even I'm amazed at how accurately it predicts the Golden Golem's recent change of policy. The "good baddie" archetype of post-modern drama requires a cue for action, and it always turns out to be the perpetration of one of those universal evils. You know, the kind of thing that is just too evil to be assigned some "human" motive so it can seem gray/amoral/ends justifying means. The good baddie can shrug at the massacre of thousands of men by the (bad) baddies, then a woman gets raped and our hero decides to take them down.

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Diebert van Rhijn
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Re: The Trump Derangement Syndrome: rational or irrational?

Post by Diebert van Rhijn » Mon Apr 10, 2017 8:34 pm

For me the main attraction of a president like Trump still stands and is being confirmed as well: as facilitator of change, not the changes he promised but the changes he might bring unwittingly: highlighting the fundamental contradictions of Washington and to some degree: the entire ideological establishment powering the "West" right now.

Some find that development "too dangerous" as if keeping alive all the contradicting, delusional policies is somehow acceptable and safe to keep hanging on to. The latest Trump moves are fundamentally contradicting, divisive and nonsensical. But exactly as being a continuation of established suicidal policy. It also shows how the seats of power work, disconnected from any "platform" one happened to have run on before. Any vocal disappointment is part of the waking up. Something has gotta give.

There's no other way forward. Something like Trump would have happened sooner or later as the system collapses slowly under its own contradictions. The dangers are more than ever exposed and not caused by electing this or that clown.

It's also interesting to see how anti-interventionists are right depicted in many main stream publications as being fundamentally racist, antisemitic , sexist and misogynist (perhaps even baby killers if they could say it). This is why I believe Solway's activism surrounding Gamer Gate is a way larger issue than just being some "nerd dispute". It's a miniature version of the larger insanity and it takes deep, dispassionate insight to see this linkage. And here I do see a link with Jupiviv's descriptions of the drama game, one which all leaders will get sucked into, being a primal seduction. It works similar at all levels; as above, as below. The "establishment" is after all ruled by emotional games, which can translate in symbolic transactions of money or status, but sometimes just only the emotion in direct exchange: buttons for others to push against a price, like at some local fair.

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Dan Rowden
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Re: The Trump Derangement Syndrome: rational or irrational?

Post by Dan Rowden » Tue Apr 11, 2017 6:10 pm

Love or hate, or anything in between, Keith, it's hard to fault this anlaysis (for me, anyway). https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sGFel-fhGkw

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Diebert van Rhijn
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Re: The Trump Derangement Syndrome: rational or irrational?

Post by Diebert van Rhijn » Tue Apr 11, 2017 9:00 pm

Dan Rowden wrote:Love or hate, or anything in between, Keith, it's hard to fault this analysis (for me, anyway). https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sGFel-fhGkw
Although I generally like Keith, or at least his spirit, I miss in his rant the role of the military advisers. There's a lot of evidence Trump leans heavily on the consensus of the US military command. The "stunt" might be then from the military perspective much more analogue to a "warning shot across the bow". It's not unusual in warfare: you show you're willing to actually pull the trigger but also indicate you don't want to necessarily escalate. To leave this well known element out of the equation, Keith's diatribe does fall a bit flat especially since he seems to think the Russian hacking mania is somehow more relevant news. The US shooting at the military of a state actor beyond the usual declaration of war is of course bigger news. Or at least it's a unilateral declaration that the Syrian government has lost its legitimacy as state actor.

It's unclear to me how all of this will change Russia's mind. For all we know they might have planted the chemical attack to cause more chaos in the Trump administration. It's clear that a conflicted, divided Western world and media is in their interest so I'm not putting it beyond the Russian intelligence to use or even cause as event like this. However it's all a bit low on facts and high on posturing, including nearly all media responses, including this video. The new world media order I suppose.

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Diebert van Rhijn
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Re: The Trump Derangement Syndrome: rational or irrational?

Post by Diebert van Rhijn » Mon May 15, 2017 7:22 am

It's official, after following the Trump related news in the whole spectrum of US and UK-Dutch media for a few months now, I fully endorse Kevin Solway's assessment to regard 95% of "what is published in the mainstream media about political and social issues to be fake news" or simply unreliable at the very core of it. Of course I cannot examine all topics so I deduce from all the reporting on Trump (and a few other international topics) as being indicative enough of how all other topics of any political or social relevance are being approached.

And then it has come to this: finding myself in full agreement with an article on wacko Breitbart: Comeygate Latest Fake News Hysteria for Trump/Russia Conspiracists by Charles Hurt.

So I'm going to answer the question I asked at the start of this thread: the syndrome is indeed irrational, perhaps collective irrationality itself or a vivid manifestation of it. We're actually dealing with a growing rift in society trying to defend that black is white and up is down. And all it needed was a notorious showboat to widen the cracks and energize the system, to overload it as to show its irrationality to the degree that it can only end one way: with a loud snap! But to be clear: the overload is happening especially at all currently irrelevant places: old school media, progressive politics, the SJW types and so on. Its collapse will probably be hardly noticed but as some analysis in hindsight when reality already moved on. That's the optimist scenario.

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Diebert van Rhijn
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Re: The Trump Derangement Syndrome: rational or irrational?

Post by Diebert van Rhijn » Fri May 26, 2017 5:58 am

Okay Breitbart was perhaps a bit too much, even for me so lets take another, more left leaning Vox article, outlining the Derangement Syndrome or "Russiasphere" in another way.

Democrats are falling for fake news about Russia - Why liberal conspiracy theories are flourishing in the age of Trump.

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Dan Rowden
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Re: The Trump Derangement Syndrome: rational or irrational?

Post by Dan Rowden » Fri May 26, 2017 10:44 am

Probably the most meaningful paragraph in that article:
There are, of course, legitimate issues relating to Trump’s ties to Russia — I’ve written about them personally over and over again. There are even legitimate reasons to believe that Trump’s campaign worked with Russian hackers to undermine Hillary Clinton. That may or may not turn out to be true, but it is least plausible and somewhat supported by the available evidence.

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Dan Rowden
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Re: The Trump Derangement Syndrome: rational or irrational?

Post by Dan Rowden » Fri May 26, 2017 1:24 pm

Wow, Greg Gianforte, a Trump backing and Trump backed journalist assaulting GOP House candidate for Montana is a piece of work.

The concept of retirement isn't Biblical and Noah built the Ark when he was 600 so we don't need and ought not fund retirement.

This is the current GOP. This is the current White House. Millionaire Xian Theocrats. Yay.


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Diebert van Rhijn
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Re: The Trump Derangement Syndrome: rational or irrational?

Post by Diebert van Rhijn » Sun Jun 25, 2017 9:17 pm

Great video making the Russian aspect of the derangement syndrome more understandable: The Establishment's Russia Fixation Takes A Dark Turn: An Interview With h NYU & Princeton Professor, Stephen F. Cohen

One article from National Review (sorry but with NYT etc being as unreliable as Prof Cohen points out in detail, where to go): The Antithesis of Obstruction
  • The Left loves narrative. The ever-expanding story manipulates time, space, and detail to fit a thematic framework. Political narrative has some surface appeal, but it is deeply flawed. It obscures plain and simple truth.
Great ambition, getting to: "simple" truths. Then again, I'm all for balance:

Why CIA Vets Say Putin Hates America—And Why President Trump Can’t Trust Him (Daily Beast).

That last article is interesting but might miss the point in one staggering sense: the whole misunderstanding of America=World=Progress. From Russian and also Trumpian perspective, being interested in ones own concerns is always leading. And also unavoidable. In other words: many foreigners and "new right" movements would describe American foreign policy dogma, including of course most of the intelligence community as fundamentally insincere: lead by a certain kind of ideology of some global concern. The core of the discussion ends up being: aren't people pretending to have global concerns while under the hood it's still only advancing only own interests: the "disease of conceit" (yes like that old Bob Dylan song).

On the whole topic I'm still somewhat divided. Is it really impossible to have concerns over the globe in terms of peace, climate, freedom and equality without being driven by smaller concerns only valid for your own particular circumstance? Is the power of self-deceit really that big? Or is about the megalomaniac ambitions of the self? As a thinker, it's easier to ask questions than to definitely answer them. But lets say there are just too many things pointing to a developing delusion having more and more of the modern world in its grip. But while a conservative outlook (or even any Russian one) might be more realistic, my question is more if it's viable as policy. And I really doubt that, even more so than I doubt the delusion of having universal, global concerns.

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Diebert van Rhijn
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Re: The Trump Derangement Syndrome: rational or irrational?

Post by Diebert van Rhijn » Mon Jul 10, 2017 2:43 am

Another take on the issue I find overall fair and just, by Craig Murray: The Stink Without a Secret
  • I do not support Donald Trump. I do support truth. There is much about Trump that I dislike intensely. Neither do I support the neo-liberal political establishment in the USA. The latter’s control of the mainstream media, and cunning manipulation of identity politics, seeks to portray the neo-liberal establishment as the heroes of decent values against Trump. Sadly, the idea that the neo-liberal establishment embodies decent values is completely untrue.

    Truth disappeared so long ago in this witch-hunt that it is no longer even possible to define what the accusation is.
Which brings me to my own analysis, in short: Trump could rise only in a place where truth already disappeared and appearances rule in its totality. Any rejection of the event is the rejection of and a mourning about what already happened and less so of what is happening or could happen.

Ironically also the post-truth era has been blamed on the Russians for example by UK Defence Secretary Michael Fallon
  • "Today, we see a country that in weaponising misinformation has created what we might now see as the post-truth age."
An amazing feat! Actually grasping the deeper issue and still manage to find a scape goat for it instead of doing further introspection on the mechanics of such age and its causes, its opportunities and its curse.

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Eric Schiedler
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Re: The Trump Derangement Syndrome: rational or irrational?

Post by Eric Schiedler » Mon Jul 10, 2017 3:36 am

Diebert, we can only be in a post-truth era if we were ever before in a truth era, which I would dispute.

So the quote is ironic, but not because a deep truth is known and denied, rather that it is that every era is effectively one of non-truth and finds scapegoats for the illusory change from truth to post-truth.

What I hear the pundits saying is, "We are at war with the post-truth, we have always been at war with the post-truth."

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Diebert van Rhijn
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Re: The Trump Derangement Syndrome: rational or irrational?

Post by Diebert van Rhijn » Mon Jul 10, 2017 3:09 pm

Eric Schiedler wrote:Diebert, we can only be in a post-truth era if we were ever before in a truth era, which I would dispute.
Fair enough. But I suppose a "fact" driven and "decency" centered discourse is what is being referred to. In any case, anyone who would doubt if we were ever in any truth era to begin with would not worry about Trump in the slightest.
So the quote is ironic, but not because a deep truth is known and denied, rather that it is that every era is effectively one of non-truth and finds scapegoats for the illusory change from truth to post-truth.
That's true. Reading some of the darker passages written by the ancient Romans when they notice the decline, of morality, of decency in their citizenry, youth and senate can be enlightening. You can find these in all later, decadent and militarized stages of empire. But in the end historians see the broader, sweeping changes in retrospect and all inert, crystallized structures not capable of change. Actually not just incapable but erected with the exact purpose to withstand it. If not collapsing, it just turns less significant rather sudden.
What I hear the pundits saying is, "We are at war with the post-truth, we have always been at war with the post-truth."
Yes, it's a kind of reactionary form of idealism that way: referring to a past time which never really was, like grand pa.

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