Re: Palestine: from the fall of the Ottomans to Today
Posted: Fri Jan 30, 2009 1:40 am
Diebert exclaims:
"Meaning that the Palestinians had to agree not to exist in a similar way as Israel decided to exist. If only Israel dared to phrase it like that! It would clear up so much."
Despite the temptation, it long ago became apparent that psychoanalysis over the Internet rarely results in productive analysis, nevertheless I am tempted to question you, to interrogate your position, you and also many people who hold to views such as yours, the Left, liberal Europe and America.
You are not able to consider the security issue Israel faces and has faced since the inception, and you cannot understand this in the broader context of Jewish history, still so fresh. You cannot and will not take into consideration, and really, really internalize and allow such an understanding to become part of your thinking, that there are people and groups who would certainly do great harm to Jews in Israel if they had the chance. You cannot and you will not allow this to become operative knowledge, and a part of the knowledge with which you make analytical choices. Like others here, you work (like rodents really) to undermine the entire structure of 'Jewish identity', so that it doesn't and logically cannot exist. You proceed straight through all the 'pillars', if you will, by which Jews understand themselves, define themselves, explain and of course defend themselves (I won't name them all here since you certainly know them by heart).
When you're done, what you have left is an insubstantial wisp, a non-thing thing, that you identify as a problem, and with which you can do what you want.
When you arrive at that point, which is an intellectual de Sadism, then you present all your facts for consideration in front of 'reasonable people', those darling pacifists who 'wouldn't hurt a fly', and set up bleachers for your grand 'democratic revival meeting' where Israel's fate is decided, where the righteous, the highpriests of PC, pass their judgments and decide what should and should not be. But no one among them, as I have seen, ever takes into account the core security issue, unreal for you, but ever-real for us.
Does anyone out there that you know of want to annihilate the Dutch from the face of the planet, Diebert? Is there ANY people you can name right now about whom people regularly say, with no apparent shame, that Hitler should have been allowed to complete his noble work, etc., etc? I could dig up in 10 seconds from all over the web endless reams of ourtightly violent declarations that express an existent, living hatred of Jews (Israelis, 'Zionists') and the expressed wish that they suffer attack, death and all the rest.
IF you were to start from a genuine base, when all the facts are placed on the table, an understanding of the Israeli situation becomes something very different than what you present, as you have sorted through the facts and presented only what you want. I certainly would never say that this renders the problem simple, as it is not simple, and there are so many different issues all grouped together (the 'clash of civilizations' and ideas, etc.) When 'reasonable people' deal with the full facts they generally conclude that Israel has a defensible position and they too defend Israel. I don't think that should mean excuse Israel without exception (Israelis do not 'excuse Israel'), but at the very least they seem to grasp what Israel is up against.
So, it seems to me that in answer to your statement above, Israel will certainly not allow the construction of a bellicose Palestinian state. One can only hope for the day when the Palestinians will make the decision to work within a peaceful context, to construct peace and prosperity, and that the whole region does this.
_________________________________________________________
What do you think of the New Tribal Review?
A couple of things I came across that might interest you:
A video you may find interesting
Muslim_Bridges
"Meaning that the Palestinians had to agree not to exist in a similar way as Israel decided to exist. If only Israel dared to phrase it like that! It would clear up so much."
Despite the temptation, it long ago became apparent that psychoanalysis over the Internet rarely results in productive analysis, nevertheless I am tempted to question you, to interrogate your position, you and also many people who hold to views such as yours, the Left, liberal Europe and America.
You are not able to consider the security issue Israel faces and has faced since the inception, and you cannot understand this in the broader context of Jewish history, still so fresh. You cannot and will not take into consideration, and really, really internalize and allow such an understanding to become part of your thinking, that there are people and groups who would certainly do great harm to Jews in Israel if they had the chance. You cannot and you will not allow this to become operative knowledge, and a part of the knowledge with which you make analytical choices. Like others here, you work (like rodents really) to undermine the entire structure of 'Jewish identity', so that it doesn't and logically cannot exist. You proceed straight through all the 'pillars', if you will, by which Jews understand themselves, define themselves, explain and of course defend themselves (I won't name them all here since you certainly know them by heart).
When you're done, what you have left is an insubstantial wisp, a non-thing thing, that you identify as a problem, and with which you can do what you want.
When you arrive at that point, which is an intellectual de Sadism, then you present all your facts for consideration in front of 'reasonable people', those darling pacifists who 'wouldn't hurt a fly', and set up bleachers for your grand 'democratic revival meeting' where Israel's fate is decided, where the righteous, the highpriests of PC, pass their judgments and decide what should and should not be. But no one among them, as I have seen, ever takes into account the core security issue, unreal for you, but ever-real for us.
Does anyone out there that you know of want to annihilate the Dutch from the face of the planet, Diebert? Is there ANY people you can name right now about whom people regularly say, with no apparent shame, that Hitler should have been allowed to complete his noble work, etc., etc? I could dig up in 10 seconds from all over the web endless reams of ourtightly violent declarations that express an existent, living hatred of Jews (Israelis, 'Zionists') and the expressed wish that they suffer attack, death and all the rest.
IF you were to start from a genuine base, when all the facts are placed on the table, an understanding of the Israeli situation becomes something very different than what you present, as you have sorted through the facts and presented only what you want. I certainly would never say that this renders the problem simple, as it is not simple, and there are so many different issues all grouped together (the 'clash of civilizations' and ideas, etc.) When 'reasonable people' deal with the full facts they generally conclude that Israel has a defensible position and they too defend Israel. I don't think that should mean excuse Israel without exception (Israelis do not 'excuse Israel'), but at the very least they seem to grasp what Israel is up against.
So, it seems to me that in answer to your statement above, Israel will certainly not allow the construction of a bellicose Palestinian state. One can only hope for the day when the Palestinians will make the decision to work within a peaceful context, to construct peace and prosperity, and that the whole region does this.
_________________________________________________________
What do you think of the New Tribal Review?
A couple of things I came across that might interest you:
A video you may find interesting
Muslim_Bridges