Alex Jacob wrote:You'll have to explain more, Carl.
Okay.
Carl: I do not subscribe to the right of any nation to exist. I am not a nationalist. I recognize that most borders as well as most leaderships were established and are held in place by force or guile, or both, mostly for the benefit of the few. All of it is subject to change by the same (force and guile). Why? This is not an age of reason or self-responsibility, it is one of force and guile.
Find those whose words seem to make sense, and listen to them? That's why I believe most if not all governments today are viper pits of dark energy, with no legitimacy despite their "claims.
Alex: I understand the language, I might even say that I understand the sentiments that produce the language.
You inaccurately denigrate me by referring to my observations as "sentiments" as though they only have the validity of feelings.
I can only comment that with such a view, you are sort of fucked clean out of existence.
Obviously false as I am very much here.
If the very state you live in is 'a viper pit of dark energy',
If you mean my internal state, you are wrong. It doesn't follow that if one lives in an external state -- the United States of America for example -- that is ruled by a corrupt government then one must be dominated by dark energy within the self.
it follows that you as an individual must be complicit in that darkness, it seems to me.
Complicit, yes, by default if for no other reason, as we are all interconnected (and imperfect).
Such an essentially obscure and paranoid view of everything
This is conjecture, and wrong. I don't know how you get obscure. If you mean non-mainstream, okay. If you mean unclear, you are incorrect, I see quite clearly. And I don't know where you get paranoid, except maybe by your own projection.
Paranoid:
adj.Exhibiting or characterized by extreme and irrational fear or distrust of others.
This is not my stance or mode at all...
can only, it seems to me, produce disassociation as its end.
...and so this doesn't apply to me.
But no matter what you think-feel (I sense that these are sentiments, almost a kind of emotion):
Again, an errant analysis. You have no idea about any research involved or the years of observation. You discount that possibility, probably because of your own views on the issues, your particular world view.
states and nations exist, and they will keep on existing.
I did not say they didn't or wouldn't. I simply said I do not subscribe to the systems governing them, that of the few in cahoots.
It is a far more realistic platform to simply accept that they are all highly imperfect---as imperfect as we are I suppose---
Yes, the evil in power is there by complicity and complacence of the many.
and yet we live within these structures and have to find a way to contribute to the positive aspects, to make the best of things, to nourish the positive, etc.
Yes, which can be done on the individual and local level. Self to self. Neighbor to neighbor. I never said we couldn't make a difference within the oppressive structure. Within it. Those who try to make a change to it, though, if they begin to be effective, are usually marginalized or taken out. The power structure protects itself.
Your view is not really your own: it is a shared view,
There is no new thing under the sun. So what.
a common narrative for the alienated, the disconnected, and it has been a common theme for some generations.
This generalization is your bullshit you are trying to slap me with, a broad brush of caricature, and an insult to many.
I only suggest that it seems to have a defeatest edge, to express fatalism, and of couse all that is common.
You don't suggest, you accused ("alienated, disconnected").
The fact is that the average individual has very little power over world affairs. If you disagree I would like to know what you personally are doing to affect world governments and international business leadership towards bringing about a brighter and more sane future for humanity.
To be truthful, that is what the sum total of your contribution to any and all conversations essentially reduces to. Apart from that, what else do you have to contribute? Nothing...
What an unfortunate state to be in, it seems to me.
Now this seems sort of defeatist and fatalistic in itself. What prompted it, simply a personal perception that you and I are not on the same wavelength (coupled with the value you place on your particular world and life view)?
Personally, I think that part of growing up is to come to understand that the world is a very imperfect place, and yet we have to make realistic choices based on a realistic apprehension of reality, which means, of course, to accept the existence of states, and to accept the brutal human nature which, as you rightly point out, is at the core of all human endeavors.
One must live with them, yes, but no, I don't believe one needs to accept those things if they do not correspond with one's values. Or, depending on definition, one can accept them but not subscribe to them, not support them.
Like so many 'thinkers' on this list, you seem to start from some disassociated, highly alientated starting point which you call 'truth' or 'clarity', and then construct some neurotic 'philosophy' on top of that which renders itself irrelevant because it has no way to connect with the flow of reality. Well, that's how I see it anyway.
Yes, that is how you see it, and telling it is.
Carl: I do know that I am aghast at the irony of Jews behaving very much as their oppressors the Nazis did just a couple generations past, for whatever reason they are doing it. The behavior and attitudes I am seeing is reprehensible even by today's even more thuggish standards. The creation and crushing of the ghetto of Gaza is just the latest horror.
Alex: What a paradox. You have established the core evil at the base of all states, which you repudiate and sort of wring your hands in grief,
I do not "wring my hands in grief." That is totally your projection.
but you are 'aghast' that, as you see things, as you chose to describe them, the Israelis act like Nazis, and for you it wouldn't even matter if they had a 'good' reason for it or not.
Correct. There is no good reason for that behavior.
Your discription, I say, is false from the start because Israelis do not and have not (and will not) behave like Nazis and do not have those ends in mind, at all.
Fine. Your opinion is noted.
This is likely your own delusion, a 'feeling' that you hold and nourish for your own purposes. It is flatly false however. It is a lie, if it is not a false perception. You cannot it seems accurately see and describe reality, your vision of things is predetermined by your moods, by an inner, dark romanticism!
Again with the suggestion for me it's all feeling, with the implication that there can't possibly be any research, observation, or thought behind it, presumably because it doesn't jive with your own views (which are based on rational thought and solid facts).
The conditions in Gaza are, if anything, a joint-creation, and Palestinians and Arabs have had a huge role in constructing the misery of the situation, and they also derive benefit maintaining it as it is, and some in the West lend a form of support to maintain things as they are too.
Such are all conflicts. And to a large degree they are orchestrated for those outcomes. It's a heck of a mess we are in because of it. So many people have given their power away.
It is an odd 'system'. I say that part of arriving at 'truth' (that could lead to solution) is to describe the internal conditions that produce the narratives, and the variations of narratives, that people like you hold. That is actually a major area for creative work in this confusing question.
That is a great thing to do, to analyze, how did we get here. To unravel it. Most people have no interest in it, or are too busy putting food on the table. Until it becomes a personal concern on a massive scale, or there is a cosmic shift -- who knows -- I don't see much chance of overthrowing the rule of the evil few over the many.
Did anything change after the carnage of World War II, in people's hearts? Did it lessen the incidence of genocide and war? Were any lessons learned at all?
One must take note that, with your views, there is nothing you could even defend. Nothing you could ever fight for, because all is evil, dark, viperish at the core.
Another projection on your part. First, I don't see things in terms of fight and defend. Second, you imply there is nothing I could or do stand for, or represent, which is false. And third, world governments being evil, dark, and "viperish" doesn't mean "all" is that way "at the core."
Your drama is getting away with you!
But I know for a fact that many people in Israel feel they are defending something very worthy of defense, and I take their side.
It's really not about the "people in Israel." Most people everywhere are "good," although quite sheeplike, you must admit.