Palestine: from the fall of the Ottomans to Today

Discussion of science, technology, politics, and other topics that aren't strictly philosophical.
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Tomas
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Re: Palestine: from the fall of the Ottomans to Today

Post by Tomas »

Diebert van Rhijn wrote:
Alex Jacob wrote: if you accept the discourse of the President of Iran, it is an inevitability that Jews be removed from Arab lands. For them this is the 'truth' of history, and it is a divine truth.
Iran is not Arab.

There always have been Jews living in Iran, although many left over time. They still have a Jew in parliament even. Historically their treatment has been wildly varying but not so different from how Christianity treated their heretic cults.

And I'd be interested in any formal and current statements which call for Jews to disappear from the Middle East. This seems a complete and dangerous, poisoning mis-representation of the political and religious drive over there, besides the usual fringe groups.
Saddam had a healthy "amount" of Jewish folk in Iraq. Seems when the UK began rumbling through the area everything changed. Kinda tough to build "democracy" when the West is dropping bombs, laying mines and generally stirring up hornet's nests.

PS - Creating/carving the 19th province (Kuwait) sure sounds like empire building to me. God Save the Queen!

PS - Keep kicking ass, Diebert
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Re: Palestine: from the fall of the Ottomans to Today

Post by vicdan »

Diebert van Rhijn wrote:To me, power equals force which equals ability to effect, a fundamental aspect of energy. This is way more fundamental than the aspects you name.
Kiddo, you are an idiot. You are missing the point.

Physics is way more fundamental than psychology, and undergirds psychology; but only an autistic idiot would try to use physical laws to analyze psychological issues. we use psychological perspective for a reason.

By your idiotic reasoning, the quantum psychics aspect is more fundamental than anything else (unless you count superstring theory and somesuch, in which case substitute them as appropriate); but again, only an autistic idiot -- like you -- would insist that quantum physics is the package.

You simply pick the aspect which you are obsessed with, and then insist that your aspect is the most fundamental, the one most correct to deploy. Now you realized that you got caught trying to cover your ass by equivocating on power, and you are spinning like a top, trying to justify your own intellectual dishonesty.

How childish.
For some reason you keep interpreting power as a form of human domination.
That's because this was the sense of power which you employed when you accused me of fascism, child.
That's just your psychological obsession which you rather see in me than yourself, apparently.
<LOL>
You were castigating me for this fixation, remember, again and again?
Yup. And you do so as well -- by proxy; you try to exorcise your demons by projecting them onto others, and then attacking others for supposedly having them.
Then do you know what causes you to make the statements, now you've left behind the charade of teaching and informing?
What charade? I never claimed to be teaching. In fact, I repeatedly and in multiple situations denounced others' attempts to ascribe teaching to me. The charade is of your invention. I have, for many years, decisively rebuffed any and all attempts to project the role of a teacher onto me.

Informing was a clever attempt at a flank, but a futile one. All communications entails conveying information. What distinguishes teaching from merely communicating is, among other things, the goal of making the other party accept the information being communicated as true and/or worthwhile; the attempt to manipulate or coerce -- with psychological tricks, authority, etc. This manipulation and coercion is often justified (such as with teaching children), but I don't practice it, except to teach my own children.

I inform by simply speaking; but I do not teach. I have, for many years, consistently and unequivocally renounced teaching as my goal. This charade exists only in your mind. You projected your own psychological templates onto me, and then you are all wounded indignation when your projections turn out to be erroneous.
Do you have a complex variant of Touret's syndrome (seems sometimes like it)? What motivates you, what drives you to spend the actual labor? Don't give me the deprived 'entertainment' as some have said in the past: this is normally an excuse to cover unconscious elements.
You are missing the point, kiddo. :) I guess if you don't understand it already -- and I made it amply clear many times -- you will never have an answer to your question, eh?
Force binds the world together, so it appear to be its very nature. What is there to chose?
Ah, so it's quantum forces which make me a fascist. <LOL> I am a fascist because I see the world as a web of quantum power balances...

You are a sad case study in delusional neuroticism. Your blatantly disingenuous attempts to explain away your own inconsistencies are a great example of how not to reason.
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Re: Palestine: from the fall of the Ottomans to Today

Post by vicdan »

Diebert van Rhijn wrote:Urban gangs building hospitals, schools and supplying welfare to piss poor people? Seriously?
They are not big enough to build hospitals and schools, but yes, on small scale, they do a community outreach. They want to be seen by their communities as providers, conscintious pillars of the community to some extent -- the same way Hamas, on a much larger scale, does in Gaza. Freakonomics has an entire chapter on gangs and their economic and social behavior.

Building hospitals (in which explosives are kept) and schools (in which suicide bombing is extolled) still doesn't make Hamas (and Hezbollah) anything other than murderous thugs.
In that case I count 10 dead in each case but a difference in degree of suffering involved with the untreatable wounds (unless one would euthanize them quickly, or a head shot perhaps). Perhaps you should rephrase your argument as to appear less moronic?
You mean you can't deal with the abject idiocy of your objection to DIME weapons, in light of the fact that DIMEs cause less actual suffering than conventional munitions, but more 'photogenic' suffering?

So once again: would you prefer more deaths -- but not as graphically horrific -- by substituting conventional munitions for DIMEs? 'Cuz that's the very point of DIMEs, you see: fewer deaths of innocent bystanders.
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Re: Palestine: from the fall of the Ottomans to Today

Post by Shahrazad »

Victor said,
So once again: would you prefer more deaths -- but not as graphically horrific -- by substituting conventional munitions for DIMEs? 'Cuz that's the very point of DIMEs, you see: fewer deaths of innocent bystanders.
I think Diebert's point is that those civilians with untreatable wounds might as well be dead. If so, the casualty rate is about the same as the conventional weapon.
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Re: Palestine: from the fall of the Ottomans to Today

Post by vicdan »

Shahrazad wrote:Victor said,
So once again: would you prefer more deaths -- but not as graphically horrific -- by substituting conventional munitions for DIMEs? 'Cuz that's the very point of DIMEs, you see: fewer deaths of innocent bystanders.
I think Diebert's point is that those civilians with untreatable wounds might as well be dead. If so, the casualty rate is about the same as the conventional weapon.
No, actually, it's not. I simply constructed an example that way. See my point about lethality radius earlier.

And FYI, 'casualty' includes both dead and wounded.

What's more, the people who die from DIMEs are more likely to be the actual targets. That's because DIMEs are more lethal at close radius than conventional munitions, but less lethal at long distance. This means that a person nearby is less likely to escape with just a shock, and a random passerby 100 feet away is less likely to be hit, period.
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Re: Palestine: from the fall of the Ottomans to Today

Post by Shahrazad »

No, actually, it's not. I simply constructed an example that way. See my point about lethality radius earlier.
OK, so give us a more realistic example.
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Re: Palestine: from the fall of the Ottomans to Today

Post by vicdan »

A more realistic example can be very variable. DIME weapons have different physical characteristics from conventional munitions. How it compares will depend on how it's used. Under some conditions, it will cause fewer deaths (both long- and short-term) in total, in others it might cause more.

It's like asking to offer a realistic comparison of an RPG to a machine gun. The comparison depends on the circumstances.

That's why, to avoid the whole idea of contriving a biased example, i made up one where the body count is the same. The point of DIMEs is simply to reduce collateral damage, to kill fewer innocents, which essential point Diebert is studiously ignoring, in favor of concentrating on the effects of a DIME blast.
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Alex Jacob
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Re: Palestine: from the fall of the Ottomans to Today

Post by Alex Jacob »

“The era of darkness will end. Prisoners will return home. The occupied lands will be freed. Palestine and Iraq will be liberated from the domination of the occupiers. And the people of America and Europe will be free of the pressures exerted by the Zionists.”

"With God's help, the countdown button for the destruction of the Zionist regime has been pushed by the hands of the children of Lebanon and Palestine . . . By God's will, we will witness the destruction of this regime in the near future."
___________________________________________________

Diebert wrote:

"And I'd be interested in any formal and current statements which call for Jews to disappear from the Middle East."

You can find some of that in Ahmadrinejad's statements and more if you look through the links country-by-country on the ADL site. All the arguments I have made about a need for people in the region to accept Israel's existence and to cooperate to find realistic and enduring solutions to the Palestinian-Israeli issue do not hinge on specific statements, either fringe or universal, that Israel be wiped off the map. It is enough that hatred of Jews and Israelis exists and that it is a tool to rouse the masses. You would not know and you might not care, but one thing Jews have learned is to pay attention to what is said, who is saying it, and what sorts of capabilities they have. You can of course pooh-pooh it all away, but my main point is that in doing so you would fail to understand what motivates Israelis and Jews. You have absolutely no reason to have the concerns that Israelis or Jews have and no one expects you to.

The greatest hope that exists now is that movement will be made in the direction for disassembling and invalidating the kinds of arguments wielded bu the overt enemies of Israel, and that 'you' who take the side of dangerous enemies of Israel might begin to examine your support, see its destructive aspect, and change it for a better and productive one.

How broad and universal a sentiment it is (Jew hatred or a desire to inflict real damage), and how deeply rooted in Muslim culture it is, is debated. But I would argue that, from an Israeli perspective, any sentiment of that sort is keenly paid attention to, and of course there is no doubt about Israel's stated intention of not permitting a nuclear Iran, which makes a great deal of sense to me.

Islam and anti-Semitism
Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad's Remarks about Israel
http://www.adl.org/main_Arab_World/Archive.html]Anti-Semitism by Country
More
Islamic Anti-Semitism

I don't think Diebert has kicked any ass, myself. He completely fails to address all crucial points and sidewinds around the most important...

PS: I am aware that Iran is not an Arab culture. What I meant to write was Islamic.
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Re: Palestine: from the fall of the Ottomans to Today

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Fucking Jews!
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Re: Palestine: from the fall of the Ottomans to Today

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This is one of the things you get when you google Fucking Jews! It's really a priceless phrase.
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Re: Palestine: from the fall of the Ottomans to Today

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You also get this...
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Diebert van Rhijn
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Re: Palestine: from the fall of the Ottomans to Today

Post by Diebert van Rhijn »

vicdan wrote:
Diebert van Rhijn wrote:To me, power equals force which equals ability to effect, a fundamental aspect of energy. This is way more fundamental than the aspects you name.
Physics is way more fundamental than psychology, and undergirds psychology
All physical powers and forces are just how we perceive nature working, it's a symbolic representation in the end. My definition of power is metaphysical, sure. Your denial of its fundamental principle just further ignorance.
I never claimed to be teaching. In fact, I repeatedly and in multiple situations denounced others' attempts to ascribe teaching to me. The charade is of your invention. I have, for many years, decisively rebuffed any and all attempts to project the role of a teacher onto me.
Quacks like, walks like, talks like. Your denial here is psychologically interesting. Why would you denounce responsibility for endless debating, correcting, illustrating, ridiculing?
What distinguishes teaching from merely communicating is, among other things, the goal of making the other party accept the information being communicated as true and/or worthwhile; the attempt to manipulate or coerce -- with psychological tricks, authority, etc. This manipulation and coercion is often justified (such as with teaching children), but I don't practice it, except to teach my own children.
A strange interpretation of the word. Being taught is so much more than 'accepting' information as being true or worthy. Teaching has not much to do with manipulation unless all communication becomes manipulation [which it perhaps is]. Ideally teaching is a transfer of not only objective bits of information but of complex method and skill, appliance - information in action. Forms of being and acting are offered for replication.
I inform by simply speaking; but I do not teach
Hypocrite.
Do you have a complex variant of Touret's syndrome (seems sometimes like it)? What motivates you, what drives you to spend the actual labor?
I guess if you don't understand it already -- and I made it amply clear many times -- you will never have an answer to your question, eh?
The problem is that you do not realize the motivation of your own labor and power. This is what I have been making clear many times, it's the center-piece of my exchange with you. The moment it would stick with someone, it's teaching and I'm not ashamed to say it.
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Re: Palestine: from the fall of the Ottomans to Today

Post by Diebert van Rhijn »

vicdan wrote: Building hospitals (in which explosives are kept) and schools (in which suicide bombing is extolled) still doesn't make Hamas (and Hezbollah) anything other than murderous thugs.
Can you appear more Mongolic? Hamas operates as a large political movement, it attended and won elections, it's deeply involved in humanitarian and charitable operations as central activity. Of course you need them to be merely thugs as that justifies assassination easier. But reality is a bit more complex.
You mean you can't deal with the abject idiocy of your objection to DIME weapons, in light of the fact that DIMEs cause less actual suffering than conventional munitions, but more 'photogenic' suffering?
Photogenic suffering? Doctors actually wonder if the wounded shouldn't be finished off to spare them an inhuman long life of intense suffering of internal bleeding and organ failures.. It's frankly quite horrible. But it's all 'photogenic' to you.

The goal of DIME is less collateral damage, which includes foremost infrastructural damages or anything unintended. And its goal is way more like anti-personal fragmentation mines: they're designed not to kill but to foremost maim. The subject is moot: it's an experimental weapon that has not been reviewed by any humanitarian convention. How convenient to use that, isn't it?
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Re: Palestine: from the fall of the Ottomans to Today

Post by Diebert van Rhijn »

Alex Jacob wrote:
"And I'd be interested in any formal and current statements which call for Jews to disappear from the Middle East."
You can find some of that in Ahmadrinejad's statements and more if you look through the links country-by-country on the ADL site.
Please be more specific. I only see ravings about Zionist influence, power and indoctrination. But that does not constitute a call for Jews to disappear. Equating this is the beginning of a convenient confusion.
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Re: Palestine: from the fall of the Ottomans to Today

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Diebert van Rhijn wrote:All physical powers and forces are just how we perceive nature working, it's a symbolic representation in the end. My definition of power is metaphysical, sure. Your denial of its fundamental principle just further ignorance.
So make up your mind. Am I a fascist because im like you, believe that it's alla bout power -- or an an ignoramus because i don't believe it's all about power? :D
Quacks like, walks like, talks like. Your denial here is psychologically interesting. Why would you denounce responsibility for endless debating, correcting, illustrating, ridiculing?
I don't. I denounce any responsibility for teaching. That you don't understand the difference is your problem, not mine.
Hypocrite.
You mean I don't fit into your neat little pigeonhole. Thanks.

I am not a guru, I never pretended to be a guru, I never claimed to be a guru, I decisively renounce any claims to guru-hood, so I am a hypocrite for refusing to be a guru. Gotcha.

Maybe someday you will get what i am doing, but I doubt it.
Last edited by vicdan on Mon Feb 16, 2009 1:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Palestine: from the fall of the Ottomans to Today

Post by vicdan »

Diebert van Rhijn wrote:Can you appear more Mongolic?
[LOL]
Photogenic suffering?
Yes. photogenic for people like you, obsessed with the political equivalent of snuff porn. DIME wounds make great anger-rousing photos, no? much more so than boring old dead bodies. never mind that DIMEs actually reduce the number of deaths and injuries. The wounds they do inflict make for great media shots. Snuff porn.
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Re: Palestine: from the fall of the Ottomans to Today

Post by Alex Jacob »

You'll have to do your own research, Diebert. True, you are very good at finding more or less specifically what you want to find and ignoring or dismissing the rest---or simply failing to comsider it---but anyone with an 'open mind' and with understanding of Jewish historical position should have no problem in grasping what Israel is up against.

The issue of weapons and war (defense, aggression) is quite interesting, but you would not ever really be able to consider it because, it would seem, there is no warfare that you would consider permissable, legal. The entire Israeli position, for you, is illegal, and so all that it does would stem from that illegality, all result would only point up that evil illegality. It is pretty standard fare that the opponents of a given power hold up the placards to show the wounded or dead, to really drive home (to fuel) the kmowledge of the horror of the terrible, evil force. You of all people should know this.

I cannot say that I am at all pleased with any death and violence that stems from the use of any or all weapons, especially the modern ones, yet they are a part and parcel of the modern reality. But there is likely a case to be made, for those who have the disposition, that Israel makes a studied and rational effort to limit death and injury to civilians when it is feasable. I also suspect that when it comes to actual waging of war, in the thick of the battle, Israel as well as all powers that conduct war put aside at least temporarily all restraint, since that is part of the nature of war. The whole object is to kill, destroy and maim, that is if I understand things correctly.

Again, the way out of this whole problem is to begin and to continue working in the direction of a real peace, based on complete acceptance of Israel, and a solidly grounded desire to exist within an existing terrestrial power relationship. In other words, to accept things as they are in general terms and to work within specifics for justice. To construct a viable future. I suggest to you that you are not yet at this point because you will not accept the 'reality' of Israel's existence and the fact that, within certain limits, it defines what is to be (and what is not to be). This is a choice made by those who have 'ownership interest', by those who reconcile themselves to having ownership responsibility, and stems from management of power. I think that 'power' is deeply problematic for you and you have no way to define it, to grasp it, to work with it. I say you are 'classically irrelevant' for this reason. You argue from the height of the clouds, but real power is always very terrestrial, and never as beautiful as an angel's face, instead it is always both very ugly and beauiful. All existing states have this ugly, brutal side, but especially in those situations where struggle and contention are part and parcel of things.
________________________________________________________

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Diebert van Rhijn
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Re: Palestine: from the fall of the Ottomans to Today

Post by Diebert van Rhijn »

vicdan wrote:
Why would you denounce responsibility for endless debating, correcting, illustrating, ridiculing?
I don't. I denounce any responsibility for teaching. That you don't understand the difference is your problem, not mine.
It's for me enough to hear you say that you think there's a difference somehow just because you're denouncing any claim or hood as teacher or leader, in any fashion or size. This illustrates so perfectly my point that I guess we could say the discussion is at its end.
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Re: Palestine: from the fall of the Ottomans to Today

Post by Diebert van Rhijn »

vicdan wrote:DIMEs actually reduce the number of deaths and injuries.
The point here is not the numbers nor the graphics, it's the type of wounds it produces which creates extraordinary suffering in many cases because A. currently doctors do not know how to recognize or treat it and B. it produces many organ and blood failures that create a specific unpleasant suffering for those hanging on to their lives, innocent or not.

Torturing one guy could save a hundred others but still there are laws against torture. You cannot solve this by just crunching numbers. Only fascists and militarists tend to do that.
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Re: Palestine: from the fall of the Ottomans to Today

Post by Diebert van Rhijn »

Alex Jacob wrote: Again, the way out of this whole problem is to begin and to continue working in the direction of a real peace, based on complete acceptance of Israel, and a solidly grounded desire to exist within an existing terrestrial power relationship.
The facts as I've read them point to a consistent, decades spanning lack of acceptance of a Palestinian state by Israel. And there's no way the Palestinian drive to self-determination can be sabotaged without sabotaging the existence of Israel. This is the actual terrestrial power relation.
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Re: Palestine: from the fall of the Ottomans to Today

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Diebert van Rhijn wrote:Torturing one guy could save a hundred others but still there are laws against torture. You cannot solve this by just crunching numbers. Only fascists and militarists tend to do that.
So you are saying that you would prefer that, say, 5 guilty and 5 innocents die, rather than 5 guilty die and one innocent gets horribly wounded?

'Cuz, you know, only fascists and militarists actually value life, according to you, especially innocent life.

You are a moral void.
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Re: Palestine: from the fall of the Ottomans to Today

Post by Alex Jacob »

Uncle Diebert writes:

"The facts as I've read them point to a consistent, decades spanning lack of acceptance of a Palestinian state by Israel."

The Palestinian liberation and national movement, if I understand things right, was so linked and wedded to surrounding political forces that were sworn enemies of Israel and the Jewish state, that its rhetoric (and of course its actions) were completely unacceptable to Israel. Really, it does not take much brain power to understand such a simple fact. The PLO and I suppose other maybe more mainline groups were also wedded to very sketchy leftist, revolutionary and nationalist movements---which of course had ideological ties to rebellious factions in many Western countries---that connected it with some very marginal folks and some highly questionable ideas. It is not at all hard to see why Israel would have rejected the platform of this group and groups like it, and as I have been saying, and as most everyone understands even if they don't want to accept, Israel would most certainly not allow a state to come into existence that had the intention of doing harm to Israel or destroying Israel.

"And there's no way the Palestinian drive to self-determination can be sabotaged without sabotaging the existence of Israel. This is the actual terrestrial power relation."

I did read a book by Baruch Kimmerling called Politicide, which I made every effort to consider at that time. I say this only because I have made the effort to look at this conflict from various angles (and I was always attracted more to the Leftist discourses, believeing they were more likely 'telling the truth'). His contention is that what Israel is doing to 'the Palestinians' is politiciding the Palestinians. There are so many different opinions and ideologies that converge around this issue such that that is really one of the most interesting things (a clash f world-views, etc.)

Unless the nature of the will toward 'self-determination' changes, and until it is a realistic will that fully accepts Israel's existence, I think you are likely right, although I would state it differently. However, if people like you, those who support organizations like the PLO, Hamas, etc., witdraw their support, change the way they think, and support a realistic and peaceful coexistance, then a road to peace and prosperity will open up.

What if you were more a part of the problem and no so much part of a solution as you seem to think? What if...

The interesting thing, for me at least, is to feel that I have begun to understand your (I mean you-Diebert and you-plural, that is, similar factions of intelligent people) complicity in maintaining the misery and suffering that exists there. There is some sort of willful element in you that allows things to continue in that way.
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So, there's this guy sitting on a bus in Manhatten and the lady next to him strikes up a conversation. At a certain point she peers at him and asks, 'You Jewish?'.

'No, ma'am, I'm not'. They keep on talking of this and that and the lady keeps repeating the question, 'You sure your not Jewish?' 'No, ma'am, I'm not...'

After about 5 times asking the same thing he finally decides to say that, well, in fact, he IS Jewish, just to get here to shut up...

'Hmmmmm!', she says suspiciously, 'you don't LOOK Jewish...'
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Re: Palestine: from the fall of the Ottomans to Today

Post by Alex Jacob »

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1067563.html (Ha'aretz article).
Obama administration's intererst in 'two-state solution'.
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Re: Palestine: from the fall of the Ottomans to Today

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Netanyahu will attack Iran's Nuclear Installations:
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1075369.html
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Re: Palestine: from the fall of the Ottomans to Today

Post by Carl G »

The latest head of Israel is a shitbag warmonger. Color me surprised.
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