Increase in Suicides Among Young People

[Glostik91]

https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamape ... m=04089%20.

There is a suicide epidemic emerging in young people. What is going on?

My hypothesis is there is an epidemic of depression occurring fueled by social media. People need to see flaws. People need to realize that no one is as they appear in social media of any sort. And more importantly, people need to start living with each other. The more people the better. Multiple families under one house. Make a conjoined duplex. Open doors. Send your teenager to live with another family for a week. I walk down the street and I see King Midas after King Midas after King Midas. We are a nation of King Midases. Homes are tools, not trophies. Imagine trying to use a gold hammer. What a sad state of affairs.

[Maximiliano Vignaga]

Just think about how life was a few hundred years back in Bavaria or wherever. Almost everyone worked the land and stayed within the reach of a village, life mostly revolved around the family (no TV or gaming console or PC). There was far less time for idleness and the free time was collected and used in celebrations (Easter, Christmas, etc). Life was shorter, but emotionally rich and ordered. This kind of society can endure famines and plagues (before the 20th century a common occurence), war and pestilence, because it has a self-replenishing well of emotional energy.

Compare that to today: Society is full of socially alienated depressives and psychotics, riddled with addiction, most reside in an urban landscape that makes group social activity impossible. But now we have Modern Medicine and don't die so easily, can live much longer (which is a problem in itself; too much old people). And now we can live with this misery longer than a medieval king.

[Diebert van Rhijn]

Suicidal waves are often linked to social upheavals, connected to the rate of change, to the common unsettling. The classic case of Vienna during the Hapsburg Empire collapse and ruthless advance of a more industry centered society. At some places this could have been more concentrated than at others. Suicides then becoming part of some collective will to the end, this high drama "rock star" thing: crown prince Rudolf alongside his mistress, Boltzmann, Weininger... (read eg "A Nervous Splendor: Vienna 1888/1889" by Morton),

Of course also psycho-analysis, perhaps not entirely coincidentally, flourished during the same period, also around Vienna, where Freud worked out his theses on Eros and a counter, like suppressed violent, destructive instinct also called Thanatos. Still often referred to by psychologists: How Recognizing Your Death Drive May Save You.

And where does the advance of thought, contemplation and genius fit in? Genius as the spark ignited by generations of suffering, over-anxious thought and feelings? Or perhaps as some balance between Eros & Thanatos, Apollonian & Dionysian, both seriously active and maximized and crystallizing in some clutch, long enough to produce this bolt, even dangerous ball of lightning?

As for Max his visions of integrated life revolving around the family, tradition and festivals: indeed peace be with that! But for thinkers, for individuals who like their thoughts bloody and clear, there's simply no stake, no risk there and only bonds to keep one at solid integration level, safe into the fold. Try to walk away from that some time, if you ever had it and the darker sides are exposed immediately.

To finish the larger thought: suicides are not a disease, like sex isn't. They appear as mindless drives we share with each other and should acknowledge to ourselves as to not let them consume us prematurely. There's something destructive to the cynical mind, the social reflection, the information gatherer, as it wants to kill and take apart everything, removing its value by division and abandon the result.

[Glostik91]

Just think about how life was a few hundred years back in Bavaria or wherever. Almost everyone worked the land and stayed within the reach of a village, life mostly revolved around the family (no TV or gaming console or PC). There was far less time for idleness and the free time was collected and used in celebrations (Easter, Christmas, etc). Life was shorter, but emotionally rich and ordered. This kind of society can endure famines and plagues (before the 20th century a common occurence), war and pestilence, because it has a self-replenishing well of emotional energy.

Compare that to today: Society is full of socially alienated depressives and psychotics, riddled with addiction, most reside in an urban landscape that makes group social activity impossible. But now we have Modern Medicine and don't die so easily, can live much longer (which is a problem in itself; too much old people). And now we can live with this misery longer than a medieval king.

People were also extremely religious and superstitious. The idea of suicide essentially condemned you to Hell unless your suicide was some sort of martyrdom. This generation of young people are the least religious group of people on the planet, at least in the West. Correct me if I'm wrong of course, but the idea of suicide as a virtue seems unsustainable.

[Glostik91]

Suicidal waves are often linked to social upheavals, connected to the rate of change, to the common unsettling. The classic case of Vienna during the Hapsburg Empire collapse and ruthless advance of a more industry centered society. At some places this could have been more concentrated than at others. Suicides then becoming part of some collective will to the end, this high drama "rock star" thing: crown prince Rudolf alongside his mistress, Boltzmann, Weininger... (read eg "A Nervous Splendor: Vienna 1888/1889" by Morton),

Of course also psycho-analysis, perhaps not entirely coincidentally, flourished during the same period, also around Vienna, where Freud worked out his theses on Eros and a counter, like suppressed violent, destructive instinct also called Thanatos. Still often referred to by psychologists: How Recognizing Your Death Drive May Save You.

And where does the advance of thought, contemplation and genius fit in? Genius as the spark ignited by generations of suffering, over-anxious thought and feelings? Or perhaps as some balance between Eros & Thanatos, Apollonian & Dionysian, both seriously active and maximized and crystallizing in some clutch, long enough to produce this bolt, even dangerous ball of lightning?

As for Max his visions of integrated life revolving around the family, tradition and festivals: indeed peace be with that! But for thinkers, for individuals who like their thoughts bloody and clear, there's simply no stake, no risk there and only bonds to keep one at solid integration level, safe into the fold. Try to walk away from that some time, if you ever had it and the darker sides are exposed immediately.

To finish the larger thought: suicides are not a disease, like sex isn't. They appear as mindless drives we share with each other and should acknowledge to ourselves as to not let them consume us prematurely. There's something destructive to the cynical mind, the social reflection, the information gatherer, as it wants to kill and take apart everything, removing its value by division and abandon the result.

I wouldn't call this social media expansion a social upheaval. When I think of social upheaval, I think of the French Revolution, something that brought about violence, deaths, irrational ideas, wait a second...

So why should I not let them 'consume me prematurely'? If I don't think life is worth the squeeze then I have every right to take it. Enlightenment is all about being my own man. What could be more enlightened than choosing when and where I die?

Something destructive ha! I'd call it something purifying.

[Maximiliano Vignaga]

As for Max his visions of integrated life revolving around the family, tradition and festivals: indeed peace be with that! But for thinkers, for individuals who like their thoughts bloody and clear, there's simply no stake, no risk there and only bonds to keep one at solid integration level, safe into the fold. Try to walk away from that some time, if you ever had it and the darker sides are exposed immediately.

I had it until I was 10, after that we stopped visiting relatives in South America. I stopped participating in the festivities when I was about 14.
Also, I became atheist at the time, as there was a debate in the media about Richard Dawkins. I do think it impacted me negatively.

Suicidal thoughts started arising not long after that, so this:

How Recognizing Your Death Drive May Save You

seems meaningful to me. How to work with that? Lets say the philosophical path is like climbing a mountain, having that death drive could lead to self-sabotage, deliberately letting go of the ledge. Dead men can't be buddhas.

People were also extremely religious and superstitious. The idea of suicide essentially condemned you to Hell unless your suicide was some sort of martyrdom. This generation of young people are the least religious group of people on the planet, at least in the West. Correct me if I'm wrong of course, but the idea of suicide as a virtue seems unsustainable.

I wasn't defending suicide or making it seem like a virtue, if it came across like that.

So why should I not let them 'consume me prematurely'? If I don't think life is worth the squeeze then I have every right to take it. Enlightenment is all about being my own man. What could be more enlightened than choosing when and where I die?

Something destructive ha! I'd call it something purifying.

...but it reads like you're doing it here, why?


.

[Diebert van Rhijn]

...integrated life revolving around the family, tradition and festivals:....t solid integration level, safe into the fold. Try to walk away from that some time, if you ever had it and the darker sides are exposed immediately.

I had it until I was 10, after that we stopped visiting relatives in South America. I stopped participating in the festivities when I was about 14.
Also, I became atheist at the time, as there was a debate in the media about Richard Dawkins. I do think it impacted me negatively.

Suicidal thoughts started arising not long after that

The development does not surprise me. Here I borrow terminology from the theory of positive disintegration by Dąbrowski, and would suggest that the process of disintegration, as road toward actualization and enlightenment, is just what it says on the tin. It's a disintegrating force that takes apart all that holds you together, the social processes, the indoctrination, the ritual-hormonal loops, all of it! What was once the source of desire and will, the will of others mostly or the illusions within our own mind, are diminishing. The result can for some lead to stress levels (as one is losing it) and very low energy states which can trigger serious, even clinical depression. At that stage, medication or treatment could become a viable option.

There is no "help" at that stage because it's the nature of the disintegrating path being followed and sustained. But going back to first level integration still might save: the strict routines, participation, commitment to a faith, a culture, becoming integrated in some communal being. It will probably all work out and is for that reason taught by many therapists.

Not going back but forward does require understanding why one is in the current state. Wisdom offers knowing exactly where you are, to map out ones trajectory, past and present, to see all everything leads to this as if it was a deep, hidden desire. That can include a wish for something to end!

How Recognizing Your Death Drive May Save You

seems meaningful to me. How to work with that? Lets say the philosophical path is like climbing a mountain, having that death drive could lead to self-sabotage, deliberately letting go of the ledge. Dead men can't be buddhas.

The greatest steps forward would require the greatest stakes and utmost risks. It seems wisdom is born out of a state of disillusionment, total abandonment, hitting rock bottom, losing faith and utter isolation. The "mountain top" is cold, sharp and unbearable after all. It's not a place one can remain human or be anything at all. What even means survival here?

But lets not worry, there's here no requirement whatsoever here to fail or succeed. One can let go of all the whips and guilt. All these age old burdens flattening and warping our minds can now be discarded. This is why it's called the Great Liberation after all! There's not even a need to climb the top. And what is your top anyway? Maybe it's already passed and you're comfortably starting to roll down not realizing it yet?

The very thing desiring death is the very thing desiring life and existence in the first place. A shadow image of life? What the philosopher attempts is to not look away, not to oppose and not to embrace. He's not avoiding anything as he'd more intimately connected to all that others merely glance at. At that stage, what is left to do? Something gets closer. Is it fate? But something else gets further away. All unavoidable.

[Maximiliano Vignaga]

Diebert wrote,

The development does not surprise me. Here I borrow terminology from the theory of positive disintegration by Dąbrowski,... is just what it says on the tin. It's a disintegrating force that takes apart all that holds you together, the social processes, the indoctrination, the ritual-hormonal loops, all of it! What was once the source of desire and will, the will of others mostly or the illusions within our own mind, are diminishing. The result can for some lead to stress levels (as one is losing it) and very low energy states which can trigger serious, even clinical depression.

Yes, I lost the desire to do anything. I had no plans for the future. The future seemed like a dark void. I couldn't imagine working, having a family, a social circle. It was simply not there.

... suggest that the process of disintegration, as road toward actualization and enlightenment,

The isolation did cause me to start asking my self "what's the purpose of life?". Thinking alot about death. A 15-year old should not be thinking about death, I think.

There is no "help" at that stage because it's the nature of the disintegrating path being followed and sustained. But going back to first level integration still might save: the strict routines, participation, commitment to a faith, a culture, becoming integrated in some communal being.

It was the time of Confirmation (as I'm catholic), and I remember how disappointed I was because nobody seemed to care about anything religious; everyone was just there because "you have to" and to get presents (money, etc.) after confirmation.

Not going back but forward does require understanding why one is in the current state. Wisdom offers knowing exactly where you are, to map out ones trajectory, past and present, to see all everything leads to this as if it was a deep, hidden desire.

I wish I had it back then. I've lost many years walking in circles.

That can include a wish for something to end!

Is wisdom not the end of wishing for something?

-

The greatest steps forward would require the greatest stakes and utmost risks. It seems wisdom is born out of a state of disillusionment, total abandonment, hitting rock bottom, losing faith and utter isolation. The "mountain top" is cold, sharp and unbearable after all. It's not a place one can remain human or be anything at all. What even means survival here?

I meant it more in sense when one is unenlightened, and on the spiritual path. The wise surely does no longer care about surviving?

But lets not worry, there's here no requirement whatsoever here to fail or succeed. One can let go of all the whips and guilt. All these age old burdens flattening and warping our minds can now be discarded. This is why it's called the Great Liberation after all! There's not even a need to climb the top. And what is your top anyway?

Well, I want to succeed in becoming enlightened, to experience the Great Liberation. I do not feel Liberated yet. So that's my mountain top.

Maybe it's already passed and you're comfortably starting to roll down not realizing it yet?

I hope not! Surely the apex of life is more exciting than what I have lived!

The very thing desiring death is the very thing desiring life and existence in the first place. A shadow image of life?

This seems meaningful to me. I desire annihilation because I desire common life (Woman).

What the philosopher attempts is to not look away, not to oppose and not to embrace. He's not avoiding anything as he'd more intimately connected to all that others merely glance at. At that stage, what is left to do? Something gets closer. Is it fate? But something else gets further away. All unavoidable.

I do not understand this one yet, but maybe my future selves.


.

[Diebert van Rhijn]

I've lost many years walking in circles.

It's more common than you might expect. It's basically the nature of what is called "false existence" or "false self" to endlessly loop, while it still can.

Is wisdom not the end of wishing for something?

A path to follow will not form without sufficient desire because goals and some propelling is required to elevate one from whatever it was where we came from before. As such are the powers of gravity, of attachments and habits, of any person and the wider web surrounding.

The wise surely does no longer care about surviving?

Whenever he acts, becomes a body, everything in and about him will still plot for survival of itself, its ego or identity like family or species. The counter movement of this would be the desire to stop living, to oppose offspring, to stop caring about the species. Once breathing in, there's also breathing out.

Well, I want to succeed in becoming enlightened, to experience the Great Liberation. I do not feel Liberated yet. So that's my mountain top.

There's no such thing as a constant feeling because of the way feelings arise. So are you prepared for what comes after the greatest liberated feeling?

I hope not! Surely the apex of life is more exciting than what I have lived!

You crave excitement? Well of course you do and surely there's no greater excitement than delving into the nature of existence itself, assuming insight and the sense of power that comes with that is sought. Whenever you look back on your life and realize it was all you ever could have wished for and are perfectly happy with all of it looking back, then you might be getting lean enough to squeeze through the worm hole.

[Eric Schiedler]

I desire annihilation because I desire common life (Woman).

This is interesting.

Your definition of Woman is common life. Therefore, do you mean that by desiring common life you are in effect desiring annihalation of your soul?

Or do you mean that by desiring common life you are sinning by action or inaction to live a greater life and as punishment should desire annihalation of your body to rid yourself of the temptation of common life?

Or do you mean that you feel something is terribly wrong to desire common life and can't find a way forward thus, in despair, desiring annihalation as a release of nevertheless living a common life but with the additional burden of despair?

Or do you mean that you know the desire for common life is futile and you desire annihalation of your wordly life in order to save your soul?

Or something else altogether that gets to your core relationship with Woman?


Eric Schiedler

[Eric Schiedler]

The isolation did cause me to start asking my self "what's the purpose of life?". Thinking alot about death. A 15-year old should not be thinking about death, I think.

Do you "think", as in merely suppose, that this is true? Or do you know that 15-year-olds should not think about death?

If a 15-year-old desires happiness and finds it not forthcoming, he may desire an escape from the dissapointment that the rest of his life may very well not provide the happiness. Depression is the result of being forced to think about it.

If only more people actually thought of death! Then they could finally know how to truly live!

Is wisdom not the end of wishing for something?

The sage's wisdom includes the absence of wishing altogether. Never mind what wishes were imagined in the past.

I meant it more in sense when one is unenlightened, and on the spiritual path. The wise surely does no longer care about surviving?

The wise knows that his true self can not die since it was never born. He doesn't care that an effort to keep his body alive will result in survival yet also does not care to end any particular effort to keep his body alive.

Well, I want to succeed in becoming enlightened, to experience the Great Liberation. I do not feel Liberated yet. So that's my mountain top.

The Great Liberation is also known as the Great Death. One must forget trying to feel liberated or to feel dead. One must come to fully know and totally believe what they know - that they are truly Dead. This is also known as Crossing the Road or Reaching the Other Shore.

Trying to escape that which makes you feel imprisoned will only get you so far. While the idealism of reaching total freedom provides the initial energy to start on the journey, the danger is that it will not be sufficient to go further. At every turn you will see the ugliness of the world and, by not readily finding a way to escape it, you can be worn down into an inert cynicism (sometimes mislabeled as nihilism).



Eric Schiedler

[Maximiliano Vignaga]

Diebert wrote,

There's no such thing as a constant feeling because of the way feelings arise. So are you prepared for what comes after the greatest liberated feeling?

Well, I did not have the "greatest liberated feeling" yet, but just as the sun goes up and down, so does the enlightened one, I suppose.

You crave excitement? Well of course you do and surely there's no greater excitement than delving into the nature of existence itself, assuming insight and the sense of power that comes with that is sought.

Yes, I do. But I realize that it's an impure motive, and will not take me far.

Whenever you look back on your life and realize it was all you ever could have wished for and are perfectly happy with all of it looking back, then you might be getting lean enough to squeeze through the worm hole.

Is this because it cannot be otherwise? You make peace with the past because it could not be any different, it was perfect in any way? That you were always looking at God, doing God's will ?

[Maximiliano Vignaga]

This is interesting.

Your definition of Woman is common life. Therefore, do you mean that by desiring common life you are in effect desiring annihalation of your soul?...

...or something else altogether that gets to your core relationship with Woman?

My current understanding is this: I see Woman as the empirical (objective) world, the world of emotional relationships with other people. And desiring to live in this world, to form emotional (deluded) bonds with other people I consider to be annihilation because: the moment you look at Her, in that moment you're unaware of God. To be unaware of God means to not exist at all.

In short: Woman is the delusion of an objectively existing world.

Soul I define as awareness/consciousness of God.

-

Do you "think", as in merely suppose, that this is true? Or do you know that 15-year-olds should not think about death?

I apologize, perhaps "ought" would be more precise. I do have some difficulties with English grammar as it is not my first language.

If a 15-year-old desires happiness and finds it not forthcoming, he may desire an escape from the dissapointment that the rest of his life may very well not provide the happiness. Depression is the result of being forced to think about it.

Yes, as in my case.

If only more people actually thought of death! Then they could finally know how to truly live!

Jesus said in the Gospel of Thomas: "Have you discovered then, the beginning, that you look for the
end? For where the beginning is, there the end will be. Blessed is he who will take his place in the beginning;
he will know the end & will not experience death."

The sage's wisdom includes the absence of wishing altogether. Never mind what wishes were imagined in the past.

The wise knows that his true self can not die since it was never born. He doesn't care that an effort to keep his body alive will result in survival yet also does not care to end any particular effort to keep his body alive.

The Great Liberation is also known as the Great Death. One must forget trying to feel liberated or to feel dead. One must come to fully know and totally believe what they know - that they are truly Dead. This is also known as Crossing the Road or Reaching the Other Shore.

I understand this intuitively, or perhaps henid-like, but it has not yet blossomed to full understanding. I suppose it takes time.

Trying to escape that which makes you feel imprisoned will only get you so far. While the idealism of reaching total freedom provides the initial energy to start on the journey, the danger is that it will not be sufficient to go further. At every turn you will see the ugliness of the world and, by not readily finding a way to escape it, you can be worn down into an inert cynicism (sometimes mislabeled as nihilism).

Love of truth, then, must replace it?


.

[Diebert van Rhijn]

Whenever you look back on your life and realize it was all you ever could have wished for and are perfectly happy with all of it looking back, then you might be getting lean enough to squeeze through the worm hole.

Is this because it cannot be otherwise? You make peace with the past because it could not be any different, it was perfect in any way? That you were always looking at God, doing God's will ?

There's certainly a logic to it like you describe. But there's also the matter of any trace of disappointment, anger, revenge or shame, looking back, all simply becoming the very road blocks you try to circumvent as they keep clouding awareness in the background, as they are some form of emotional residue. They cannot be resolved by just fading or ignoring. Only their counter parts will serve that purpose: truly regarding these not just as something necessary or unavoidable, or even random at times, but also as perfect, fulfilling, revealing, answering to ones desires (whatever they were) and worthy all in all, no matter the sense of smallness or futility experienced before. It's a powerful moment and might happen in phases as it's like a great unwinding, it cannot be hastened. And for it to even appear is already a rarity. Your life is already rare in that regard in any case.