Global Warming

Discussion of science, technology, politics, and other topics that aren't strictly philosophical.
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Elizabeth Isabelle
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Re: Global Warming

Post by Elizabeth Isabelle » Tue Jun 07, 2016 2:02 pm

Actually have not heard from or about Dan in years. How's he doing? And anyone else for that matter.
Diebert van Rhijn wrote:
Anyway, one eye-opening proxy for the past temperature is the most recent GRIP2 ice-core analysis in Greenland. Some of the most recent reconstructions...
Interesting that you would use the term "most recent" twice to refer to a study you linked from 2011 to refute an article, admittedly from 2013 - but still more recent than what you tried to update with, that actually agrees with what you were trying to refute. From the abstract in your first link:
The record indicates that warmer temperatures were the norm in the earlier part of the past 4000 years, including century-long intervals nearly 1°C warmer than the present decade (2001–2010). Therefore, we conclude that the current decadal mean temperature in Greenland has not exceeded the envelope of natural variability over the past 4000 years, a period that seems to include part of the Holocene Thermal Maximum. Notwithstanding this conclusion, climate models project that if anthropogenic greenhouse gas emissions continue, the Greenland temperature would exceed the natural variability of the past 4000 years sometime before the year 2100.
(bold added)

More recent articles, like from the first of this month showing a major chunk of the Great Barrier Reef receiving a lethal blow from global warming, and another one from the last day of last month confirming the projections from the 2013 article I linked earlier indicate that the actual "most recent" science indicates that we are plunging into hot water fast, in more ways than one.

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Diebert van Rhijn
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Re: Global Warming

Post by Diebert van Rhijn » Sat Jun 11, 2016 8:53 pm

Elizabeth Isabelle wrote:Actually have not heard from or about Dan in years. How's he doing? And anyone else for that matter.
Although I was kidding, apart from posting now a week apart out of the blue, looking more closely I see now that both of you make an appearance spring last year and both stopped suddenly posting in even the same week back in 2014. Perhaps you are ruled by the same planets? As for how anyone is doing, I have no clue or contact. But I'm doing quite good, how about you? And Naturyl?
"climate models project that if anthropogenic greenhouse gas emissions continue, the Greenland temperature would exceed the natural variability of the past 4000 years sometime before the year 2100."
Well, I'm not commenting right now on climate models and the article I quoted wasn't discussing any validity of those models either. This is about actual measurements of the present compared to detailed measurements of the last few thousands years. Which shows at least a good possibility that the natural component of the current warming could be rather large, bigger than was assumed so far. This seems important to consider especially after I was reading the cold hard facts about people dying right now because of energy prices in Europe, caused mainly by all the environmental and CO2 taxation. Not to mention the millions dying elsewhere of general poverty and war, because an urgent need to industrialize and develop some decent living standards first. And without green energy as it's just not ready but people are dying right now while their governments ask for the right to pollute their way to some level of wealth. Of course the whole picture is more complex, too many chickens and eggs in place.
showing a major chunk of the Great Barrier Reef receiving a lethal blow from global warming
It's not clear to me that we're talking about a "lethal blow". Recovery is the most likely option although there are dangers for sure.

Great Barrier Reef authority says media, not activists, misinterpreting the data

Or as Australian Minister for the Environment wrote
The advice from the head of GBRMPA is that these results show that the Great Barrier Reef is a resilient ecosystem and has the ability to bounce back from impacts once other pressures are reduced.

However, if major disturbances such as bleaching events occur more regularly, this will affect the Reef’s ability to recover.

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Elizabeth Isabelle
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Re: Global Warming

Post by Elizabeth Isabelle » Fri Jun 17, 2016 11:27 am

Thanks for the better article about the reef.

Yeah, about the same planets theory, although Dan's birthday is the day after mine, due to the international dateline, our birthdays do overlap, so maybe you have something there ;)

I'm fine. I was in a shelter a couple of months, and am in transitional housing now. Nat's girlfriend beat me up a couple of times, so after the first time, I started trying to get in a shelter, but could not get in due to wait lists until after the second time. Nat and I are getting a divorce, and shortly after, he will be marrying her. He and I will still consider each other family though. He's a great guy - it's just that their relationship is more marital than ours, and she is not of a mindset amenable to polyamory, and it makes no sense to me for me to try to make the impossible work.

How are you?


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Jamesh
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Re: Global Warming

Post by Jamesh » Mon Aug 01, 2016 5:10 pm

Dan seems to be OK - I've seen him post on a non-philosophy forum not very long ago.
His heart condition has not knocked him off this mortal coil as yet.

David Quinn I have not seen anything whatsoever.

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Dan Rowden
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Re: Global Warming

Post by Dan Rowden » Wed Aug 03, 2016 7:41 pm

Hey Jimbo, and others,

I'm doing reasonably well, and I don't have a heart condition - I had a stroke. Try to avoid one, if you can; they pretty much suck. David is doing ok as far as I know. Playing a lot of Zen golf, I believe.

Jimbo,

I got banned from AIMN. Michael Taylor is a slimy arsehole. Don't ever trust him if you find yourself in a situation where that might be an option.

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Jamesh
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Re: Global Warming

Post by Jamesh » Thu Aug 04, 2016 1:03 pm

wow, I was not expecting MT would ban you. I’ll miss your posts. When in form you are one of the most brilliant folks around, so I hope you come back at some point.

Admittedly, although I did think you were a touch John McEnroeish on that issue - that you initially went in too hard - as a government employee myself, who has a boss who would use my forum comments against me, I did appreciate the sentiment behind what you were saying.

Michael tends not to respond to me, which suits me. I’m sure he finds me offensive.

Anyway thanks for the warning. I mainly post there as I need mental stimulation, not for any cause (other than a mutual disgust of conservative pollies).

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Dan Rowden
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Re: Global Warming

Post by Dan Rowden » Thu Aug 04, 2016 6:34 pm

Hey Jimbo,

I went in hard because I'd voiced my concerns privately to MT days before and got an assurance he'd speak to KL about it, but obviously did not. She has form in privacy policy stuff.

Anyway, I too only post there to keep my mind active. It's a tribalist shithole, really. But then , I guess politics is always like that. The lack of intellectual and ethical integrity is literally breathtaking.

You seem well. That pleases me.

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Elizabeth Isabelle
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Re:

Post by Elizabeth Isabelle » Mon Sep 04, 2017 2:27 pm

Found my timeline prediction (March 9, 2007, this thread). Okay, I know now that the tidal wave theory was off, but I was on target for when we would see major effects from global warming. Too bad we can't just use Harvey water and Bangladesh water to put out the fires throughout the west coast of the US. Good luck with Irma, people.
Elizabeth Isabelle wrote:
Katy wrote:Just how rapid is a rapid flood? I was under the impression it was still years, just not decades or centuries.
It is likely still years from now, but maybe not even a decade. By "rapid flood" I mean that if a substantial amount of ice falls into the water at once, we are talking about a tidal wave, and the final flood lines will not recede. Not all of the ice is under water. Some is on land, and some is floating above water (which could break away and fall in). This is where the water that will raise the oceans is coming from. Although it would be years from now, the actual flooding could take place in minutes.

Now if only there were a way to take a huge quantity of that while it was still ice and transport it to areas where there are droughts, that would at least reduce the raising of the sea levels. The reason heavy rains cause flooding in areas that have been in a drought is that dry land does not absorb moisture as well as moist land - it just runs off. Water takes time to seep into the land and make it feritle again. If they could take the ice shelf and transport some of it to Australia, where there is a drought, and drop the rest of it on - I think it was Africa - that has the perpetual huge forest fires, that would both use up enough water to prevent some of the flooding, and reduce the emissions contributing to global warming by the forest fires themselves. That water would be absorbed into the land instead, like a dry sponge.
.

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Diebert van Rhijn
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Re: Global Warming

Post by Diebert van Rhijn » Sat Sep 09, 2017 7:28 pm

Hello Elizabeth, so you are taking your utterly failed prediction and somehow convert it to a successful one by just claiming it was a hit? That seems like wishful thinking to me. Furthermore you seem to misunderstand some of the mainstream science in this, like some media outlets are doing as well. Which I'm happy to explain here:

The first thing you need to realize is that when you talk about "effects of global warming" you cannot talk about one event, no matter how impact-full it might seem. Global warming is a model about noticeable changes over decades, even centuries.

It's then good to know that Atlantic hurricanes, their frequency or intensity have not been rising and as intensity is not expected to do so as noticeable trend before the end of this century. For more information see: Global Warming and Hurricanes from GFDL, a NOAA Research Laboratory, specialist in hurricanes and global warming. Also the water and air temperatures from NOAA indicate they were near relatively normal for the atmosphere and sea surface being only slightly above normal in the Gulf. It's not unusual enough to explain anything about this hurricane with current climate science.

Now we established that the formation or strength of this hurricane and the ones following are not considered to be directly related to global warming theory, we still need to look at the amount of water and flooding.

The main cause with Harvey has been the particular trajectory and especially the stationary behavior: it kept for a long time in one place, thereby offloading its water (which was not that much more than normal) into one region. Why did the hurricane do that? The weather system in place which pushed Harvey into place ("MJO phase 2" – a major cool trough) does not seem to be part of any global warming related pattern or statistic apart from some speculation. One blog digging further into this: Global Warming and Hurricane Harvey.

Having said all that, we do need to realize that these kind of events will hit hard in any modern economy where many development projects have used flood plains to build housing and did not invest sufficiently in water protection against predictable disasters and tide rises known to happen during the warmer interglacial (period between ice ages). The Netherlands learned this in 1953, where a statistical combination of events put part of the region under water (2500 died in total). After that mega investments like the Delta Works were done to protect the coast and plains against events which were known to occur lets say once in a century following non-CO2 models. Now the risk left is one in 10.000 years with a human life valued at €2.2 million.

Places in the world where flooding is a real danger are often simply not valuing human life very high, refusing to invest in protection against normal weather and tide related events, those happening once in 50-100 years and when it does happen, they cry for God and blame the Devil's hellish warming. In my view it's too much of a religious mindset which needs some cooling, pardon the puns.

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Elizabeth Isabelle
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Re: Global Warming

Post by Elizabeth Isabelle » Wed Sep 20, 2017 2:03 pm

Deebs, good job at totally ignoring the fires, and reclassifying the pattern of worse conditions as "one event" I didn't bother to update to include Katia, Jose, or Maria, but if you want an actual single marking event, seems like we've really done it this time: https://www.forbes.com/sites/trevornace ... cbdbabf6f4

As for your link, read the whole article, not just the grey box in the summary at the beginning; and remember that scientists understate everything. Remember that in order to be called a scientific theory, it has to have more evidence than most people require for facts. After all, gravity is only a theory.

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Diebert van Rhijn
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Re: Global Warming

Post by Diebert van Rhijn » Mon Sep 25, 2017 12:35 am

You' seem dishonest here Elizabeth. just changing the goal posts at will > you always win!

My post was not addressing any "fires" and neither was yours. What are you talking about exactly?

You can include Katia, Jose, or Maria but I didn't mention the 12-year lull in Cat 4-5 hurricanes. NOAA counts 10 between 1920-1969 hitting the USA while only three between 1970-2016.

There's no increase whatsoever. And certainly not predicted at this stage by any global warming theoretical model.
seems like we've really done it this time: https://www.forbes.com/sites/trevornace ... cbdbabf6f4
As for reading, it seems you haven't even started reading the thing. You seem to have misread the time-scales suggested and went instead with the plot of a known action movie. Did you care to actually read the research he links to and noticed the "300 years" and also the remark on the faulty human timescale of the movie?

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Elizabeth Isabelle
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Re: Re:

Post by Elizabeth Isabelle » Thu Sep 28, 2017 12:26 am

Deebs wrote:
Mon Sep 04, 2017 2:27 pm
You' seem dishonest here Elizabeth. just changing the goal posts at will > you always win!

My post was not addressing any "fires" and neither was yours.
You say I seem dishonest, and as evidence you flat out lie to me?

Elizabeth Isabelle wrote:
Mon Sep 04, 2017 2:27 pm
Found my timeline prediction (March 9, 2007, this thread). Okay, I know now that the tidal wave theory was off, but I was on target for when we would see major effects from global warming. Too bad we can't just use Harvey water and Bangladesh water to put out the fires throughout the west coast of the US. Good luck with Irma, people.
Bold and underline added.

I'm done talking to you Deebs.

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jupiviv
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Re: Re:

Post by jupiviv » Sat Sep 30, 2017 12:35 am

Elizabeth Isabelle wrote:
Thu Sep 28, 2017 12:26 am
Too bad we can't just use Harvey water and Bangladesh water to put out the fires throughout the west coast of the US. Good luck with Irma, people.
Did you actually ask why "we" can't just "use" Harvey or Bangladesh water to put out fires throughout the US west coast?

Well, I guess I should now ask why we can't just use Harvey or Bangladesh water to maintain the Saharan solar panels that we - equally puzzlingly - can't just use?

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Diebert van Rhijn
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Re: Global Warming

Post by Diebert van Rhijn » Sat Sep 30, 2017 4:57 pm

Elizabeth Isabelle wrote:
Thu Sep 28, 2017 12:26 am
Deebs wrote:
Mon Sep 04, 2017 2:27 pm
You' seem dishonest here Elizabeth. just changing the goal posts at will > you always win!

My post was not addressing any "fires" and neither was yours.
You say I seem dishonest, and as evidence you flat out lie to me?
But your post was not addressing (ie "deal with") those fires, Elizabeth, you were just mentioning them in some joke and mostly talking about tidal waves. My reply to you was about hurricanes in relation to your stated "major effects from global warming" while I just showed how GFDL/NOAA and Clifford F. Mass, professor Atmospheric Sciences at Washington Uni disagreed with you.

Perhaps you didn't come here to reason, discuss or part with information. You prefer to speculate, gossip and throw tantrums?

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Diebert van Rhijn
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Re: Global Warming

Post by Diebert van Rhijn » Sat Sep 30, 2017 7:24 pm

However the topic of droughts and fires is interesting, especially the global developments on vegetation and greening.

Published in Nature Climate Change last year: Greening of the Earth and its drivers, which confirms a global trend of something many people have seen the last decades happening in their countries through memory or looking at historical satellite imagery.
Global environmental change is rapidly altering the dynamics of terrestrial vegetation, with consequences for the functioning of the Earth system and provision of ecosystem services. Yet how global vegetation is responding to the changing environment is not well established. ...

We show a persistent and widespread increase of growing season integrated LAI (greening) over 25% to 50% of the global vegetated area, whereas less than 4% of the globe shows decreasing LAI (browning) ....

CO2 fertilization effects explain 70% of the observed greening trend, followed by nitrogen deposition (9%), climate change (8%) and land cover change (LCC) (4%). CO2 fertilization effects explain most of the greening trends in the tropics, whereas climate change resulted in greening of the high latitudes and the Tibetan Plateau. The regional effects of unexplained factors suggest that the next generation of ecosystem models will need to explore the impacts of forest demography, differences in regional management intensities for cropland and pastures, and other emerging productivity constraints such as phosphorus availability.

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Elizabeth Isabelle
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Re: Re:

Post by Elizabeth Isabelle » Sun Oct 01, 2017 1:15 am

jupiviv wrote:
Sat Sep 30, 2017 12:35 am
Elizabeth Isabelle wrote:
Thu Sep 28, 2017 12:26 am
Too bad we can't just use Harvey water and Bangladesh water to put out the fires throughout the west coast of the US. Good luck with Irma, people.
Did you actually ask why "we" can't just "use" Harvey or Bangladesh water to put out fires throughout the US west coast?

Well, I guess I should now ask why we can't just use Harvey or Bangladesh water to maintain the Saharan solar panels that we - equally puzzlingly - can't just use?
jupiviv, no, I didn't ask such a silly question. I used a dry lamentation to better express the scope I was pointing at. I value brevity now.

.

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Diebert van Rhijn
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Re: Global Warming

Post by Diebert van Rhijn » Sun Oct 01, 2017 9:53 pm

As for addressing those disastrous, fires throughout the west coast of the US, it should indeed be taken more seriously. After reading a bit more about about this, I get the impression that not just the drought is to blame but also, to some degree, the federal forest policies, which created at places "tinderboxes" ready to go off. So far I haven't been able to determine how those factors exactly relate. It looks like two bad things colliding, causing a terrible collusion. From the recent statistics it would seem the amount of fires is still on the decline (possibly because of control and alert systems?) but the scale of those which are burning is just immense. (see also this blog: While the West Burns, No One Notices).

As for the droughts, I do notice that research like the seminal paper "North American drought: Reconstructions, causes, and consequences" (Cook et al. 2007, Earth-Science Reviews) provide a larger, wider view, like this graph. As for now, I don't know what to think about it. My first reaction in these cases is always that the level of population and the relatively vulnerable inter-connectivity of modern society would still remain the biggest issue, but it's never seriously up for discussion.

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Elizabeth Isabelle
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Re: Global Warming

Post by Elizabeth Isabelle » Mon Oct 16, 2017 12:41 pm

While no one storm is a pattern, and many people have made excuses about why so many record-breaking weather events have happened recently. how many weird events have to take place this year before just about everybody, including most Americans, start believing that this is real, and that since we caused it, we should do something to try to help fix it?

Now we have Hurricane Ophelia about to hit Ireland. Not like hurricanes never hit Ireland, but they are rare, and there have been a lot of rare events this season.

It was not predicted that global warming would necessarily cause more hurricanes, but that it would make more of them worse, droughts worse, other weather events more extreme, and changes to where various climates can be found at a faster rate than normal migration can adequately adapt to. Yes, the climate does change, but not normally this fast, and we are on track for a degree of change outside the patterns established without the effects from the Industrial Age.

___________________________________________
edit to insert the following quote from the article:
No other major hurricane in recorded history has formed anywhere near the position of Ophelia

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Elizabeth Isabelle
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Re: Global Warming

Post by Elizabeth Isabelle » Sun Oct 22, 2017 12:41 am

A few months old, but still relevant: When Will Climate Change Make Earth Too Hot for Humans?

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Diebert van Rhijn
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Re: Global Warming

Post by Diebert van Rhijn » Sun Nov 05, 2017 3:11 am

Elizabeth Isabelle wrote:
Mon Oct 16, 2017 12:41 pm
how many weird events have to take place this year before just about everybody, including most Americans, start believing that this is real, and that since we caused it, we should do something to try to help fix it?
Yes, changing climate is real, it would be even without human contributions. Like poverty is real, building in flood planes, poor housing, lack of normal protection against regular disasters, a fragile economy and so on. And the question is not if we should do something but which area the trillions should flow to. Mind you, you can only spend a trillion once or twice before creating the greatest man-made disaster one can imagine: the complete sudden collapse of the financial system. No need to wait a 100 years.
other weather events more extreme, and changes to where various climates can be found at a faster rate than normal migration can adequately adapt to. Yes, the climate does change, but not normally this fast, and we are on track for a degree of change outside the patterns established without the effects from the Industrial Age.
That area is something that can be discussed. There's not enough precise data to establish some kind of certain base line of speed. What I do know is that humans and as such it can be expected any community, including the scientific one, will always be biased in thinking it's all about "us" and some glorious future with global drama, needs and rescue. It's the basis of our current mental-emotional processing of everything else. So in this context I'm personally extremely cautious when a certain community of activists and scientists claim evidence and ask for a multi-trillion investment to "save" something. A warmer globe and violent weather is a problem for poverty, neglected areas and an inflexible economy. It's a problem for a seriously overpopulated, overstressed world which can only reason (economically) in terms of growth instead of downsizing. For me that's the major issue and in that light I cannot get "warm or cold" from any climate disaster porn.
No other major hurricane in recorded history has formed anywhere near the position of Ophelia
Recorded history which is for most major weather events 80-200 years and not even as complete or detailed in location of the formation as it would require satellite images. On any serious timescale the term "recorded history" is a blip and in my view rather meaningless to compare to the ages or millennia while still every week I read the term often used by some serious newspaper. And even on the bigger timescales things change, cyclical, linear or randomly at their own pace. For example we're way overdue for a period of the new magnetic pole shift. All the telltales are already visible in the movement of both poles, weakening and modest splitting. This particular global phenomenon might start already in our times but it's certainly not related to any human activity. This is just one example of something which makes me wonder if humans can think at all on inhuman timescales with their heart.

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Elizabeth Isabelle
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Re: Global Warming

Post by Elizabeth Isabelle » Wed Dec 06, 2017 1:34 am

Things do change, and significantly, outside of human influence. This does not negate the fact that humans have had, are having, and can continue to have an impact. You, Deebs, seem to be supporting the unconscious flow of nature, while I am supporting the conscious planning and wise intentional actions of the best that life can be.

And I'm not necessarily being ethnocentric on humanity. We are the ones on Earth who have the most rapidly effective tools, thanks to our opposable thumbs combined with sufficient intellect, to physically impact the future of all life on this particular liferaft in space. That does not make us necessarily the smartest or wisest species. We've barely tried to communicate with other species on Earth, including undersea species who have been evolving much longer than we have due to having been less susceptible to previous extinction events. The current one, however, is even impacting life under the sea. We might do better with some guidance from our underwater siblings and cousins - though much of humanity, certainly almost all Americans, have way too large of an ego to listen.

While in the current economic system, global warming will impose adversity disproportionately on the poor first, without intervention, eventually everybody will die. As for worrying about throwing trillions at making the world a more livable place, in the US, the House and the Senate each passed bills that would cost about two trillion a year to give tax breaks and other advantages to corporations and the super-wealthy, unless they cut out significant portions of our social safety net that we all paid into our entire working lives (and then it would still cost us over a trillion a year). They've already raided funds we paid into for our social safety net for their own pet projects, but now they are ready to point-blank rob us, and there doesn't seem to be a darned thing we can do about it. Our economy is already swirling down the toilet, and we are waiting for the final gurgle of the flush. It would be wiser to use the last of the old economy to prepare the world for the new economy rather than cannibalize it for the wealthy few who have been boiling us frogs for a long time now.

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Diebert van Rhijn
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Re: Global Warming

Post by Diebert van Rhijn » Sun Dec 10, 2017 9:20 pm

Elizabeth Isabelle wrote:
Wed Dec 06, 2017 1:34 am
Things do change, and significantly, outside of human influence. This does not negate the fact that humans have had, are having, and can continue to have an impact. You, Deebs, seem to be supporting the unconscious flow of nature, while I am supporting the conscious planning and wise intentional actions of the best that life can be.
It would be more accurate to say that I support the flow of nature, including all our attempts to plan and act accordingly. My views have grown from an all-inclusive perspective, weighing all factors, causes and possibilities, to the best of my understanding. And it seems not many people even attempt to do that so what often results are lob-sided, fantastic and outright disastrous undertakings. Striving for the wisest approach is indeed what one can aspire to but I think that was my point: the current approaches seem to ignore a couple of crucial aspects in the rush to save something from something else.
much of humanity, certainly almost all Americans, have way too large of an ego to listen.
And yet you appear to see no problem in eating its current major fruit like its various political-scientific conclusions on climate? Perhaps you think science safeguards us all from ego? It does try to appear like a liberation force at times but it's just as much affected and blinded but, perhaps more dangerously, has people believe in some pristine, ego-less, source of ultimate knowledge about "existence as nature". Nothing could be further from the truth although the principles of science are sound and many of its fruits downright amazing.
While in the current economic system, global warming will impose adversity disproportionately on the poor first, without intervention, eventually everybody will die.
Yes eventually everybody will die. And once it's understood, from a wiser perspective, what life actually is beyond organic communicating mechanisms, what makes something actually alive, it's immediately understood that rapid climate change is not the most real danger. It's perhaps more like a global distraction, like all the aiming for world peace by diplomatic means.
As for worrying about throwing trillions at making the world a more livable place, in the US, the House and the Senate each passed bills that would cost about two trillion a year to give tax breaks and other advantages to corporations and the super-wealthy, unless they cut out significant portions of our social safety net that we all paid into our entire working lives (and then it would still cost us over a trillion a year). They've already raided funds we paid into for our social safety net for their own pet projects, but now they are ready to point-blank rob us, and there doesn't seem to be a darned thing we can do about it. Our economy is already swirling down the toilet, and we are waiting for the final gurgle of the flush. It would be wiser to use the last of the old economy to prepare the world for the new economy rather than cannibalize it for the wealthy few who have been boiling us frogs for a long time now.
You sound here almost opposed to all what stands for the classical American Dreaming and desire for Freedom. You are more describing a socialist leaning economy and government, like the Scandinavian or Rhineland models. Let me wake you up from that: the large part of Americans are not willing to go in that direction at all if they knew what it would mean from a personal perspective. It would require major changes to lifestyle and social behavior. And it seems the US government, current and former ones, is just reflecting this conflict. And personally I think the peek of the Scandinavian and Rhineland socioeconomic models is long over, despite Germany doing well still mainly because the Euro zone is still benefiting them as biggest, most productive partner, a position only one can take at the time. But that's a more classical model, like how the USA got their more wealthy position after WW2 in relation to all the weaker economies resulting from the aftermath.

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jupiviv
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Re: Global Warming

Post by jupiviv » Mon Dec 11, 2017 6:48 am

How's it going Diebert! Nice to see you're still keeping the lights on as it were.
Diebert van Rhijn wrote:
Sun Dec 10, 2017 9:20 pm
the current approaches seem to ignore a couple of crucial aspects in the rush to save something from something else.
The science is probably sound, it's the "so what do we do?" part where the problem lies, as usual. While Green proponents insist there are no easy solutions, the overall effort seems to be directed at precisely that - providing easy solutions that can be neatly packaged with ideology and commerce (like post-modern drama porn or Tesla). My view is that the systems of warming have already reached a point where we can't alter them either way, and can only attempt to guess at the consequences and timing. I'm writing this now in an Indian coastal city where it's raining in fucking December, which is quite unusual but nevertheless cannot be definitively attributed to AGW. Besides that, emission reduction will happen on its own since we are already running out of cheaply extractable fossil fuels.

The real irony of Green philosophy though is that its axioms are identical to those of its supposed antitheses. That is also true of 20th century philosophy in general. In short, those axioms all boil down to value (and truth) originating outside the individual, and being made accessible to the individual or society through choice/force and subsequent legitimisation. The contradiction inherent in that axiom has so far been largely ignored, and attempts to point it out dismissed, because so far the "outside" has more or less corresponded with the *real* values, goals and motivations. These latter all revolve around the desire for happiness as they have throughout history, but this time the "outside" of industrialism fulfills that desire on a scale and to a degree unimaginable in past ages.

So people see no reason not to think that the "outside" can/will/should always resemble the "inside", and that all asymmetry is due to the imperfections of the "inside" and therefore fixable. Reason itself is no more than a tool that can fix the "inside", either by innovating and erasing the wrongly perceived limits of the "outside", or by refuting notions about the reality of those limits, or by invalidating desires to remain within them. Past ages abandoned reason for unreasonable values about the "outside". We laugh at their hypocrisy and stupidity because we use reason to make our values reasonable enough for the "outside".

Within such a worldview, it is possible to think of fossil fuels as an obsolete and perhaps evil energy source which all rational people must stop using by choice rather than as the natural consequence of their usage of them on a massive scale for a century or so. Or to envision solar or wind power or biofuels as a ready-made and economically scalable alternative to fossil fuels which is being thwarted by our own ignorance and greed. Or indeed to rub the Green groupies' noses in the compost, and encourage everyone to stimulate the economy by burning more oil because AGW is a hoax.

I think the Age of Schism/s is due in large part to the increasing disparity between the actual "outside" and the now-venerable ideas and perceptions of both the "outside" and the "inside". People are simply doubling down on what has hitherto seemed to work, or failing that pretending that at least it works better than something else (that others are doubling down on). This behaviour is also not, as Kevin thinks, currently most characteristic of or most prevalent in the authoritarian left. Trump's tax cut, and elimination of medical care for the non-rich, is really just a way of going back on promises made in happier times while assuring everyone that doing so is all part of the plan to return to those times.

It's interesting that my generation (millenials) really hasn't found their voice yet, unlike the postwar generations who found theirs early and then forgot what they were saying. What we’re witnessing right now in the West - and in the East - is the last hurrah of these now old guys, inheritors of the postwar ideological/leadership cadres. They are secular versions of the early mediaeval Pope, the last vestige of the long-gone Roman Empire. Theirs is the power of the Image (of industrial might and magic). We on the other hand have so far only expressed violence either via ironic, foppish subversion and undermining or ironically ironic, foppish emulation or whining (ironic or otherwise). But we won't be denied. I suspect that before long we shall find our power, and our voice, in the Word.

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Diebert van Rhijn
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Re: Global Warming

Post by Diebert van Rhijn » Tue Dec 12, 2017 9:14 am

jupiviv wrote:
Mon Dec 11, 2017 6:48 am
How's it going Diebert! Nice to see you're still keeping the lights on as it were.
The big head office has no intention of shutting down while a tiny regional Hindu office still could make a mega profit this year!
The science is probably sound, it's the "so what do we do?" part where the problem lies, as usual.
Yes, although since the dawn of time, the fundamental question underlying the scientific process, and its funding, and passions, always has been heavily influenced by those other parts of policies, social mood, fashion and so on. Science functions despite those, but barely. It's time people get rid of the glamorous, pristine view on the sciences. It's nitty gritty dirty and half of the time dead wrong. Especially in cases where it's mostly pure model and scenario based. And especially the economical balances involved with climate research. In the end it's not the science which is as much faulty but the method of selection, the bias, which can never be solved by science itself. Higher reason is the only power able to steer that process, to "burn back the weeds"'
The real irony of Green philosophy though is that its axioms are identical to those of its supposed antitheses. That is also true of 20th century philosophy in general. In short, those axioms all boil down to value (and truth) originating outside the individual, and being made accessible to the individual or society through choice/force and subsequent legitimisation. The contradiction inherent in that axiom has so far been largely ignored, and attempts to point it out dismissed, because so far the "outside" has more or less corresponded with the *real* values, goals and motivations. These latter all revolve around the desire for happiness as they have throughout history, but this time the "outside" of industrialism fulfills that desire on a scale and to a degree unimaginable in past ages.
Nice highly quotable passage.
I think the Age of Schism/s is due in large part to the increasing disparity between the actual "outside" and the now-venerable ideas and perceptions of both the "outside" and the "inside"... Trump's tax cut, and elimination of medical care for the non-rich, is really just a way of going back on promises made in happier times while assuring everyone that doing so is all part of the plan to return to those times.
Some big disappointments are unraveling as we speak as for some reason the modern human has started to believe in pure intentions of the masses or at least the groups elected to govern, amuse or research. The world is turning uglier but not because it was nicer before! It's only the unraveling of one belief and the increasing despair to find a new one.
But we won't be denied. I suspect that before long we shall find our power, and our voice, in the Word.
Sure have a go.

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