Marriage and Cuckolding (cont'd from "pop tarts")

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Kevin Solway
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Marriage and Cuckolding (cont'd from "pop tarts")

Post by Kevin Solway » Mon Nov 21, 2005 11:26 am

sschaula wrote:Pretty much every girl that was married gave it up the fastest...I think I said this before. It was insane to me! This is what I mean when I say I learned a lot.
This is my understanding of the phenomena:

While a woman is single, she still has her "purity" as a bargaining chip. It makes her more valuable in the eyes of men, so she is cautious about giving it up. But once she is married, she no longer has that as an excuse not to enjoy sex with whomever she chooses - especially if her husband won't find out about it.

There may be a biological reason for this.

Women often marry men who are good providers, but they are sexually attracted to a completely different kind of man, whom they find more exciting, but who is not a good provider. Ideally, and subconsciously, she wants to become pregnant to the more exciting, risk-taking, more independent man, but have her husband pay for the rearing of the children.

The same thing happens with cuckoos, hence "cuckolding" - where the cuckoo leaves its eggs in the nest of an altogether different species of bird, who will do all the hard work of caring for and feeding the young.

But, biologically, the boring, good provider needs to leave enough of his own genetic material in enough of the offspring, otherwise in the future there won't be any providers. So there has to be a balance.

The only thing that can stop adults of both sexes having rampant sex at every opportunity is the possession of some sort of ideal. But we live in an age where ideals are going out of fashion.

When life is reduced to its bare bones, with all intellectual ideals stripped from it, there is just sex, food, and death.

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Post by David Quinn » Mon Nov 21, 2005 12:44 pm

There could be some other factors at work as well. For example:

- A woman with a boyfriend/husband feels that she is the most virtuous of all women and dwells at the opposite end of the spectrum from "worthless slut". She thus feels she has plenty of leeway to indulge her sexual lusts without having her social status slip too far.

- A woman feels she can blame her lustful behaviour on the fact that her boyfiend/husband is not there at the time. Because he is not there, it means that he doesn't really care for her. She needs to console herself with some hot and sweaty sex. If she gets caught, she can easily justify it by saying that she was actually missing her boyfriend/husband.


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Post by Kevin Solway » Mon Nov 21, 2005 12:56 pm

DavidQuinn000 wrote:There could be some other factors at work as well. For example:

- A woman with a boyfriend/husband feels that she is the most virtuous of all women and dwells at the opposite end of the spectrum from "worthless slut". She thus feels she has plenty of leeway to indulge her sexual lusts without having her social status slip too far.
Yes, that's related to my observation about the value of purity in an unmarried woman. Being "pure" really means not beings seen as a "worthless slut". Once married, the pure/slut distinction no longer appllies.
- A woman feels she can blame her lustful behaviour on the fact that her boyfiend/husband is not there at the time. Because he is not there, it means that he doesn't really care for her. She needs to console herself with some hot and sweaty sex. If she gets caught, she can easily justify it by saying that she was actually missing her boyfriend/husband.


I am reminded of the following:

This from The Lamentations of Matheolus
Guy found his wife in her bedroom underneath Simon, who was bonking her on the edge of the bed. Once the act was over, Guy got angry, scolded and reproached his wife, saying, "Get out, wicked woman, may God destroy you, body and soul, for your wickedness is now only too clear." But the woman was very quick to contradict her husband, replying, "Are you trying to kill me? Tell me what's the matter?". And the martyr to marriage said to her, "I want a divorce." "Alas," she said "why do you dare to speak such evil words to me? My father was once deluded into thinking that what you are now accusing me of had happened to him, for he imagined that he had seen my mother behaving in a wifely manner underneath another man, but his eyesight was defective. I know that my mother died as a result of such an incident, and my other female ancestors in just the same way. Dear husband, tell me how you arrived at such a crazy idea. Where has this melancholy come from? Dear friend, do you wish to be the death of me? Do you want me to live, or to die needlessly having done no wrong? You would be a wicked man indeed. Tell me what you want me to do." The poor wretch wept as he embraced her and said to her, "Sweet sister, I want you to live, for if you were ever to depart prematurely from this life as your mother did, your death would be too bitter a blow to me."

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Post by sschaula » Mon Nov 21, 2005 12:56 pm

Good points. I still wonder about something. I wonder if women almost stop putting out when they're single. Maybe being single makes them feel a little bit pure again, like a little girl, so they hold off for a while?

Here's an example of why I question the ideas you presented...I used to be a provider type, and I was friends with this girl who I'll call Melanie. I was a young poet and a songwriter, and she was dating this rock and roll badass guy who could kill me who was five years older than me and looked way better and edgier than me. I was "nice" and didn't do anything really cool. I wore white t shirts and skateboarding shoes..I was boring! Well I played my guitar for Mel one night and she seemed to be really into me while she was seeing that guy. We went to a democratic comedian speaker and she was hitting on me constantly...stopping in front of me and basically running in circles around me doing dumb stuff. She looked sad when I left for the night, and asked my friend "what's he doing? I want him!" One night I came over and we drank a few beers and talked in her room, and Mel was REALLY trying to get me to make a move but I just didn't. I didn't even show my attraction to her.

So I was a provider type but for some reason the fact that Mel was with this guy made her more susceptible and flirtatious. I wasn't the wild type any woman would want to rush away with for a while, while her significant other was gone. I was a wannabe artist. A nobody. A quiet kid. She was one of the hottest girls at the university, and could've gotten any guy she wanted. She probably did too, as long as she was dating that guy.

So because of this and other events I've witnessed, I really see it as something other than a need to be sexually fulfilled. It's just that when a woman is with someone, she fucks everyone else. That's all I can see...and there is no logic to it.

But if you're right and it's just a matter of provider/fucker, then boring guys should try to make themselves more exciting. I hope they do that, or else give up on women altogether so they won't be tricked and hurt as much by the strange species.

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Post by sschaula » Mon Nov 21, 2005 1:02 pm

A woman with a boyfriend/husband feels that she is the most virtuous of all women and dwells at the opposite end of the spectrum from "worthless slut". She thus feels she has plenty of leeway to indulge her sexual lusts without having her social status slip too far.

That seems too methodical. There may be no feeling in it at all.

I don't know. The more I understand about women, the less I understand.

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Post by Kevin Solway » Mon Nov 21, 2005 1:19 pm

sschaula wrote:Here's an example of why I question the ideas you presented...I used to be a provider type, and I was friends with this girl who I'll call Melanie. I was a young poet and a songwriter, and she was dating this rock and roll badass guy who could kill me who was five years older than me and looked way better and edgier than me. I was "nice" and didn't do anything really cool. . . . So I was a provider type but for some reason the fact that Mel was with this guy made her more susceptible and flirtatious. . . . She was one of the hottest girls at the university, and could've gotten any guy she wanted. She probably did too, as long as she was dating that guy.
She may have seen you as a potential provider/husband.

On the other hand she may have just been wanting sex with anyone she fancied, but she may have been good-looking enough to get away with it. Men don't mind "sluts" if they are good looking and sexy enough!

There is a saying: "A man wants a virgin who is a whore". But a whore who is a virgin (because of her extreme good looks) can pass the muster.
It's just that when a woman is with someone, she fucks everyone else. That's all I can see...and there is no logic to it.
In a way, women can be more sexually available when they are already in a relationship, since there is less obligation for the man to commit to them. . . . It's not like he'll have to marry her just because he kissed her.
But if you're right and it's just a matter of provider/fucker, then boring guys should try to make themselves more exciting.
If they do that, they won't be as stable and reliable providers as they were.

PS. According to the British comedy series "Coupling" a woman becomes a virgin again once she has gone without sex for a few weeks.

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Post by avidaloca » Mon Nov 21, 2005 1:59 pm

"When life is reduced to its bare bones, with all intellectual ideals stripped from it, there is just sex, food, and death."

It all boils down to violence.

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Post by David Quinn » Mon Nov 21, 2005 2:15 pm

Scot,
DQ: A woman with a boyfriend/husband feels that she is the most virtuous of all women and dwells at the opposite end of the spectrum from "worthless slut". She thus feels she has plenty of leeway to indulge her sexual lusts without having her social status slip too far.

S: That seems too methodical. There may be no feeling in it at all.

There would definitely be feeling in it. Haven't you heard women often say it isn't fair that men can sleep around and not suffer any social persecution, while women who do the same are automatically branded as sluts? Women are very sensitive towards this issue.

The dynamic that I describe above is very real, in my opinion. Yes, it's not done consciously and methodically; it's an instinctive thing. It is what arises instinctively after a lifetime of obssessing about relationships, boys, sexual desirability and social status.

I don't know. The more I understand about women, the less I understand.
They can be confusing at times, because we subconsciously expect them to act like men. But their behaviour is still perfectly explainable, nonetheless. There is no essential mystery to them.

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Post by David Quinn » Mon Nov 21, 2005 2:50 pm

Kevin,
Being "pure" really means not beings seen as a "worthless slut". Once married, the pure/slut distinction no longer appllies.
There are other related distinctions which remain, though - married/single, for example. As far as women are concerned, being married is a massive step upwards from being single, even when it involves marriage to a worthless, wife-beating slob. A woman could be president of the United States and yet, if she were single, she would still be universally regarded by women as an object to be pitied.

I also think the situation that Scot describes is quite unusual. In normal circumstances, married women don't sleep around all that much, and they certainly don't fuck everyone on sight. It has to be the army culture taking hold here. Women are easily swept along with whatever is happening in their environment, so it wouldn't take much for the males in the army to instill a culture of promiscuity and persuade the females to take part.

PS. According to the British comedy series "Coupling" a woman becomes a virgin again once she has gone without sex for a few weeks.
And when postmodernism and feminism succeed in completely taking over society, a woman will be lucky enough to remain a virgin even when she is sleeping around!

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Post by David Quinn » Mon Nov 21, 2005 3:01 pm

Scot wrote:
Here's an example of why I question the ideas you presented...I used to be a provider type, and I was friends with this girl who I'll call Melanie. I was a young poet and a songwriter, and she was dating this rock and roll badass guy who could kill me who was five years older than me and looked way better and edgier than me. I was "nice" and didn't do anything really cool. . . . So I was a provider type but for some reason the fact that Mel was with this guy made her more susceptible and flirtatious. . .
It might be that she enjoys getting abused and beaten by her rock and roll boyfriend, and consequently feels motivated to behave in a manner which will provoke jealousy in him. What you're seeing is simply spill-over from months or years of entrenched provocative behaviour.

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Post by Leyla Shen » Mon Nov 21, 2005 9:36 pm

Women often marry men who are good providers, but they are sexually attracted to a completely different kind of man, whom they find more exciting, but who is not a good provider. Ideally, and subconsciously, she wants to become pregnant to the more exciting, risk-taking, more independent man, but have her husband pay for the rearing of the children.
In the really ol' days, the exciting, risk-taking, muscular type was the good provider.

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Post by Leyla Shen » Mon Nov 21, 2005 9:45 pm

DQ: A woman with a boyfriend/husband feels that she is the most virtuous of all women and dwells at the opposite end of the spectrum from "worthless slut". She thus feels she has plenty of leeway to indulge her sexual lusts without having her social status slip too far.
That is certainly not the way it was for me.

Being married was probably the most degrading experience of my life. It lasted one year. But then, I've always been vehemently opposed to notions of "social status."

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Post by Leyla Shen » Mon Nov 21, 2005 9:51 pm

Scott wrote:
But if you're right and it's just a matter of provider/fucker, then boring guys should try to make themselves more exciting. I hope they do that, or else give up on women altogether so they won't be tricked and hurt as much by the strange species.
Why does it hurt, Scott?

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Post by Leyla Shen » Mon Nov 21, 2005 9:54 pm

When life is reduced to its bare bones, with all intellectual ideals stripped from it, there is just sex, food, and death.
Precisely. A salient point I reckon, Kevin.

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Post by DHodges » Mon Nov 21, 2005 11:47 pm

DavidQuinn000 wrote:They can be confusing at times, because we subconsciously expect them to act like men. But their behaviour is still perfectly explainable, nonetheless. There is no essential mystery to them.
Yes, there is less to women than meets the eye. You feel like there is some mystery there, something that needs explaining - but there isn't.

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Post by Matt Gregory » Tue Nov 22, 2005 12:58 am

I think there is a lot of mystery surrounding women, but it doesn't lie with the women themselves, it lies with our strange habit of projecting things we lack onto them. And it's not just men, women do it too by projecting onto other women.

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Post by sschaula » Tue Nov 22, 2005 5:29 am

Leyla, watch the movie "Swingers" with Vince Vaughn. The character Mikey was extremely hurt because he didn't understand what his ex girlfriend was doing. I was hurt once by a girl I fell in love with. It hurt for me because it seemed like everything she had done with me was an act, and every word she said was a lie. When you spend so many days, weeks, and months with someone...so many nights of talking about everything in the world, and kissing and touching, then you find out it was all a farse, it really jars you. At least the first time it does. At least it did to me.

Read the Brad/Elizabeth thing in this forum. Do you think Brad wasn't hurt? He didn't really show signs of sadness, but it wasn't like he felt great about the whole thing.

I'll have you know though, it doesn't hurt for me anymore. When a girl does something crazy like fucks someone behind my back now, I just kind of laugh...which is probably not a good thing! (yes it has recently happened, sort of)

"In the really ol' days, the exciting, risk-taking, muscular type was the good provider."

That's what I'm saying! Why can't guys meld the two personality types back together? I personally just think they need some help.

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Post by David Quinn » Tue Nov 22, 2005 6:57 am

Leyla,
Being married was probably the most degrading experience of my life.
Why was that?

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Post by Dave Toast » Tue Nov 22, 2005 8:52 am

I just want to reiterate what David touched upon earlier concerning the real world situation which spawned this conversation. The people involved quite clearly represent a biased sample, the kind of sample even the lowly scientist wouldn't touch with a dipole, and a logical fallacy to boot.

These married women are (a) that much more likely to have been there, seen it, got the sticky T-shirt (b) that much more likely to be 'not entirely happily married'.

They may well be an example of women and Woman, but they are not women or even Woman per se.

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Intent

Post by sevens » Tue Nov 22, 2005 9:32 am

A human is one who's character is their strongest ally.

Such do women exist.

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Post by Leyla Shen » Tue Nov 22, 2005 10:09 am

Scott, David:

I'll get back to this discussion as soon as I can.

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Post by sevens » Tue Nov 22, 2005 10:29 am

Leyla,

Let's cut all this womanly bullshit.

Do you want to talk?

MKFaizi

Post by MKFaizi » Tue Nov 22, 2005 11:01 am

I cannot now imagine being pitied because I am not married. Some women envy my man-less state. Of course, they are not willing to give up the benefits of having a man around in order to live manlessly. Men are good for taking out the garbage and other menial tasks -- like checking the oil in the car and mowing the grass. Many men also give their wives rides to work during snow storms.

But, to me, it is worth giving up the benefits to not have to suffer the drag of having a man around -- having to baby him and coddle him and spoon feed his little ol' ego or listen to him whine about his boss or whatnot.

Such a pain. I'd rather take out my own trash and drive myself to work in the snow than to put up with the bullshit.

I like men. I find some of them to be attractive. But not all that attractive.

Men are women to me. Cute, appealing but I know the truth behind the lovely facade.

Faizi

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Post by MKFaizi » Tue Nov 22, 2005 11:07 am

Men who are single are often assumed to be homosexual. Kind of the same thing as the pity some feel for the single woman.

My Uncle Gus never married. He figured his neighbors thought he was gay. So, one day, he went out among a group of them and said, "I know you people think I'm queer. So, let me put you straight. I am queer."

He was not homosexual. He just told them that.

Faizi

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Post by sschaula » Tue Nov 22, 2005 11:20 am

But, to me, it is worth giving up the benefits to not have to suffer the drag of having a man around -- having to baby him and coddle him and spoon feed his little ol' ego or listen to him whine about his boss or whatnot.

Heh, that's very true about men.

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