Brad and Elizabeth

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Post by sevens » Fri Nov 18, 2005 4:30 pm

Amazing the things you can learn about yourself on a forum.

...What a concept.

Purple flowers, all around.

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David Quinn
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Post by David Quinn » Mon Nov 21, 2005 3:40 pm

Sue wrote:
Yes, Elizabeth wrote the email because of her sunglasses. The sunglasses were more ‘real’ than Brad could ever be – he is now, and always was, just part of the vague.
You're the third person who has affirmed the idea that she wrote the email in order to get sunglasses back. I initially thought it was just a joke, but it seems the three of you are serious.

In my view, the primary reason why Elizabeth wrote the letter was to try and undermine the idea that she is somehow at fault.

You know the way that women usually respond when the finger is pointed at them and they are accused by others of engaging in socially-unacceptable behaviour? They instinctively try to undermine the accuser's higher moral ground by pointing the finger even more emphatically at themselves. They gnash their teeth and cry dramatically, "I am sorry, it was all my fault. I am to blame. I didn't mean to do it. Can you forgive me?" In other words, they try to diffuse the "Us vs. Them" dynamic by obliterating the "Us" and joining the "Them". It's their way of rejoining the in-crowd as quickly as possible.

In a similar vein, Elizabeth doesn't try to deflect the charges. Instead, she spends many sentences trying to undermine Brad's hostility by agreeing with him that she erred and hopes that he would forgive her. Even though she probably knows they can never get back together, she has to go through this process in order to try and dispell the anxiety involved in thinking she had engaged in socially-unacceptable behaviour.

Having attended to this issue, a lot of the anxiety immediately vanishes and she is ready to start writing the next paragraph. Suddenly, she is a sunny frame of mind again. She has passed through that awful episode and the world is looking fresh and hopeful once more. So what's wrong with asking Brad for her sunglasses back? He won't mind. She's in his good books again.

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Matt Gregory
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Post by Matt Gregory » Mon Nov 21, 2005 3:46 pm

I think it's hilarious how suddenly the mood of her writing changed when she asked for her sunglasses and then it quickly changed back again to the "poor me" line.

Here's the condensed version:

Elizabeth: poor me poor me poor me (you have my sunglasses) poor me poor me

Brad: Begone evil whore! May your name be cursed and sullied across the lands!

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Post by Leyla Shen » Mon Nov 21, 2005 5:03 pm

I think it's hilarious how suddenly the mood of her writing changed when she asked for her sunglasses and then it quickly changed back again to the "poor me" line.
Exactly, Matt.
Having attended to this issue, a lot of the anxiety immediately vanishes and she is ready to start writing the next paragraph. Suddenly, she is a sunny frame of mind again. She has passed through that awful episode and the world is looking fresh and hopeful once more. So what's wrong with asking Brad for her sunglasses back? He won't mind. She's in his good books again.
David, if that were the case, the "poor me" line would have stopped right at that sunny moment since she would have, as you say, attended to the issue.

But, she didn't stop, did she? She had to make sure that -- after having asked for her sunglasses -- he felt reassured this was not the reason for her email. It's called emotional propitiation; sometimes a disgusting mechanism used to achieve some benefit for the propitiator.

Neither one of them are "real" to the other.

They're like a couple of tape-recorders stuck on repeat.

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Post by David Quinn » Mon Nov 21, 2005 5:26 pm

Leyla,
DQ: Having attended to this issue, a lot of the anxiety immediately vanishes and she is ready to start writing the next paragraph. Suddenly, she is a sunny frame of mind again. She has passed through that awful episode and the world is looking fresh and hopeful once more. So what's wrong with asking Brad for her sunglasses back? He won't mind. She's in his good books again.

L: David, if that were the case, the "poor me" line would have stopped right at that sunny moment since she would have, as you say, attended to the issue.

But, she didn't stop, did she? She had to make sure that -- after having asked for her sunglasses -- he felt reassured this was not the reason for her email.
A woman's mind is very fluid, though, isn't it. It would seem that doubts about whether she really was in his good books began surfacing again and she was suddenly thrust back into dealing with the anxiety monster once more.

It's called emotional propitiation; sometimes a disgusting mechanism used to achieve some benefit for the propitiator.
Are you saying that her emotionalism and proclaimed need for his forgiveness are fake?


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Post by Leyla Shen » Mon Nov 21, 2005 9:23 pm

David,
A woman's mind is very fluid, though, isn't it. It would seem that doubts about whether she really was in his good books began surfacing again and she was suddenly thrust back into dealing with the anxiety monster once more.


No, because if it's not too fluid to be setting out to be accepted back into the in-crowd, she could have deleted the line about the sunglasses, altogether.
Are you saying that her emotionalism and proclaimed need for his forgiveness are fake?
I would say her emotionalism was very real: I cannot comprehend the meaning of "fake" emotionalism. Her need for his forgiveness, however, is as fake as unconsciousness itself is.
In my view, the primary reason why Elizabeth wrote the letter was to try and undermine the idea that she is somehow at fault.


Well, she did try to blame the booze. It seems that's where her finger was squarely pointed. This, as I see it, is the only ploy to regain her status with the in-crowd. After all, we all understand how booze makes you not think -- and enough of it makes you completely unconscious of your behaviour.

Of course it is all an attempt to undermine Brad's hostility -- especially when it comes to the most valuable sunglasses she left at his place and felt worthy enough to mention despite any potential damage he may cause to them. I mean, how hostile could he be?

As for Brad and his high moral ground, what in-crowd did he hope to appease with his wounded pride -- or is it just the more vicious nature of a man's non-fluid mind that we witness here?

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Sunglasses at night

Post by DHodges » Mon Nov 21, 2005 11:36 pm

I thought the line about the sunglasses was an excuse to get back together in person. Even if he didn't want to see her, he could do the chivalrous thing and return her sunglasses... giving her an opportunity to beg his forgiveness in person, which can be much more effective than a letter.

There may be something about a girl that will blow a guy in the bathroom that Brad likes...

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Post by David Quinn » Tue Nov 22, 2005 7:36 am

Leyla,
DQ: A woman's mind is very fluid, though, isn't it. It would seem that doubts about whether she really was in his good books began surfacing again and she was suddenly thrust back into dealing with the anxiety monster once more.

L: No, because if it's not too fluid to be setting out to be accepted back into the in-crowd, she could have deleted the line about the sunglasses, altogether.
As Dave Hodges suggests, the sunglasses are a way of extending her hand of friendship in a concrete sense. She has spent much time gnashing her teeth and begging for forgiveness; now it's time to move on and resume the relationship as it was. Or if that can't be achieved, at least she can try to minimize his hostility and have him think less badly of her. If she can do that, it would be a major victory for her. Getting the sunglasses back is merely an added bonus.

Yes, I agree that a woman's mind is not perfectly fluid. There is a gravitational attractor insider her which shapes the flow - e.g. the blind, overwhelming desire to fit in with the in-crowd. Although, what she considers to be the "in-crowd" is itself very fluid and can change from moment to moment.

DQ: Are you saying that her emotionalism and proclaimed need for his forgiveness are fake?

L: I would say her emotionalism was very real: I cannot comprehend the meaning of "fake" emotionalism. Her need for his forgiveness, however, is as fake as unconsciousness itself is.

I don't know about that. How can a woman live with the thought that someone, somewhere, is angry with her and thinks she is worthless scum? Her entire existence as a "successful woman" is being called into question.

Well, she did try to blame the booze. It seems that's where her finger was squarely pointed. This, as I see it, is the only ploy to regain her status with the in-crowd.

That's standard female behaviour in this kind of situation. Loudly draw all the blame onto oneself (so as to disarm the accusers) and then subtly hint that it really wasn't one's fault at all.

As for Brad and his high moral ground, what in-crowd did he hope to appease with his wounded pride -- or is it just the more vicious nature of a man's non-fluid mind that we witness here?

The way I see it, Brad has been humiliated by Elizabeth and is lashing out viciously in response - partly out of pure anger over being betrayed and partly out of a desire to repair his reputation within the male in-crowd.

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Post by Leyla Shen » Tue Nov 22, 2005 9:55 am

David,
As Dave Hodges suggests, the sunglasses are a way of extending her hand of friendship in a concrete sense. She has spent much time gnashing her teeth and begging for forgiveness; now it's time to move on and resume the relationship as it was. Or if that can't be achieved, at least she can try to minimize his hostility and have him think less badly of her. If she can do that, it would be a major victory for her. Getting the sunglasses back is merely an added bonus.

Yes, I agree that a woman's mind is not perfectly fluid. There is a gravitational attractor insider her which shapes the flow - e.g. the blind, overwhelming desire to fit in with the in-crowd. Although, what she considers to be the "in-crowd" is itself very fluid and can change from moment to moment.
Let me get this straight. You’re saying that a woman’s mind is not fluid enough to disable her from discerning what the “in-crowd” is in order to beg it’s forgiveness for an activity that might see her ostracised from it, and at the same time, fluid enough to be able to discern what the “in-crowd” is in order to perform an activity that might see her accepted back into it?

That doesn’t make any sense to me.

Her begging may indicate that she, in fact, does indeed have a conscience and feels remorse over her actions. In which case, his forgiveness would have had some value for her -- and the sunglasses used in the manner you suggest, as well. But I think the only way to know that would be to see if it is regular behaviour on her part. If we can make any assumptions as to truthfulness on Brad's part, his description of her suggests otherwise. It suggests that she is very materialistic, indeed.
I don't know about that. How can a woman live with the thought that someone, somewhere, is angry with her and thinks she is worthless scum? Her entire existence as a "successful woman" is being called into question.
It’s not a matter of living with it; it’s a matter of reacting.
L: Well, she did try to blame the booze. It seems that's where her finger was squarely pointed. This, as I see it, is the only ploy to regain her status with the in-crowd.

D: That's standard female behaviour in this kind of situation. Loudly draw all the blame onto oneself (so as to disarm the accusers) and then subtly hint that it really wasn't one's fault at all.
Man, I don’t know what type of females (and by that I guess I, personally, really mean “type of emotionalism“) you have been hanging with, David. I have seen many females respond in quite the opposite fashion. In fact, probably the only females that I have witnessed behaving in that manner are on shows such as Phil Donahue. Not to mention the fact that I have personally witnessed men behave like that when I have attempted to dissolve a relationship.
The way I see it, Brad has been humiliated by Elizabeth and is lashing out viciously in response - partly out of pure anger over being betrayed and partly out of a desire to repair his reputation within the male in-crowd.
So, what is it about Brad and his in-crowd that makes his mind non-fluid? The fact that he wants to go with the flow of the male in-crowd?

If Brad had been the one in the bathroom -- and it has been known to happen -- would that make him a woman with a fluid mind?

Why does he not stick by her despite her infidelity? Is he, in that way, any less subject to change because he suddenly realised what he apparently had suspected all along and, thus, gave up on her?

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Search For a Soul

Post by sevens » Tue Nov 22, 2005 10:19 am

With all this talk of the "in-crowd," I have to wonder...

Who's cool, really?

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Post by David Quinn » Thu Nov 24, 2005 8:46 am

Leyla,
DQ: Yes, I agree that a woman's mind is not perfectly fluid. There is a gravitational attractor insider her which shapes the flow - e.g. the blind, overwhelming desire to fit in with the in-crowd. Although, what she considers to be the "in-crowd" is itself very fluid and can change from moment to moment.

Let me get this straight. You’re saying that a woman’s mind is not fluid enough to disable her from discerning what the “in-crowd” is in order to beg it’s forgiveness for an activity that might see her ostracised from it, and at the same time, fluid enough to be able to discern what the “in-crowd” is in order to perform an activity that might see her accepted back into it?
Yes, more or less. A woman who is 100% feminine and flowy would be too unconscious to be aware of what the "in-crowd" is, or indeed of anything at all. She would be entirely unconscious. But no woman is ever 100% feminine. There is always an element of masculinity in her. It is this element which generates the stability and consciousness.

However, the masculine element in the average women is small and not really powerful enough to seize control of her mind. It isn't developed enough to resolve things rationally. It is like a little baby constantly being swamped in a sea of uncontrollable forces. Hence, she instintively looks to huddle with others for protection and tries to avoid behaviour which will have her ostracized.

(Of course, she is willing to ostracize herself from one "in-crowd" if she is certain that another "in-crowd" is waiting with open arms. Being completely alone is her main fear.)

Her begging may indicate that she, in fact, does indeed have a conscience and feels remorse over her actions. In which case, his forgiveness would have had some value for her -- and the sunglasses used in the manner you suggest, as well. But I think the only way to know that would be to see if it is regular behaviour on her part. If we can make any assumptions as to truthfulness on Brad's part, his description of her suggests otherwise. It suggests that she is very materialistic, indeed.
Yes, we don't have much information and can only speculate about what is really going on. But as a general principle, a woman doesn't have a conscience in an objective sense. She only begins to feel remorse over her behaviour if other people start pointing the finger at her.

DQ: The way I see it, Brad has been humiliated by Elizabeth and is lashing out viciously in response - partly out of pure anger over being betrayed and partly out of a desire to repair his reputation within the male in-crowd.

L: So, what is it about Brad and his in-crowd that makes his mind non-fluid? The fact that he wants to go with the flow of the male in-crowd?
It's evident that his mind is still quite feminine and fluid - just less so than Elizabeth. When men seek to bond with other men and worry about their reputation and social status, they are being very feminine.


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Post by sevens » Thu Nov 24, 2005 9:10 am

Certainly, heard all this before.

<yawn>

You really do have to fuck yourself.
Last edited by sevens on Thu Nov 24, 2005 9:19 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by David Quinn » Thu Nov 24, 2005 9:19 am

And yet you show, with your posts, that you do not understand it. Yawning will not help you understand it.

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Post by sevens » Thu Nov 24, 2005 9:20 am

You have not grasped the "Nature of Woman" then.

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Post by David Quinn » Thu Nov 24, 2005 9:27 am

Well, thanks for your interjections from the stands. Why don't you go off and play with the butterflies or something?

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Post by sevens » Thu Nov 24, 2005 9:38 am

Why won't you open your mind to them?

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Post by sue hindmarsh » Thu Nov 24, 2005 10:56 am

David wrote:
… a woman's mind is not perfectly fluid. There is a gravitational attractor insider her which shapes the flow …
You could say the sunglasses gave a concrete direction or goal to Elizabeth’s emotional flow. “Yes, all’s better now, kiss kiss hug hug - now where are my sunnies?”

Things are very important to woman, because without them woman doesn't exist. As in the case of Elizabeth and her sunglasses: the sunglasses are Elizabeth, as are all her other things – past, present and future. Without an internal life, the only evidence of her existence is in the things she collects. My point about Brad being “just part of the vague”, refers to Elizabeth’s closer connection with things (such as the sunglasses) than with the person, ‘Brad’. This is because women experience people in the same way they experience other things. They cannot know or understand anything truly, because they cannot discriminate between one thing and another thing. The whole world is at her disposal, always creating new things for her to slide into.

David wrote:
Of course, she is willing to ostracize herself from one "in-crowd" if she is certain that another "in-crowd" is waiting with open arms. Being completely alone is her main fear.


This is evident in every facet of life. Women take things up and then drop them with the greatest of ease. She doesn’t discriminate between things, she just goes with the flow. So whatever is next on offer, she’ll pick it up and make it ‘her’.

Even when women find themselves in situations where there are no things (people, etc) to define them; that is to say, when they are completely alone - they still come up trumps. Because it is then that women go into the very core of their being and come back with – tears. Blubbering and wailing, even if no one else is there to see it, makes her feel better. Through her tears her femininity flows freely, keeping her connected to everything, and thereby providing her with an existence. So, the upside for woman is that femininity is always with her, and she is never truly alone; the downside is … well I suppose for any woman, there really is no ‘downside’ – “it’s all good”.

I suppose the only people that truly experience the downside of woman, are those that are used by her. If you are in a relationship with one of them, realizing that the woman you are with is nothing but a puff of air, can be quite disconcerting - especially when you have pinned your hopes and dreams for the future on her.

Sue

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Post by sue hindmarsh » Thu Nov 24, 2005 11:09 am

Sevens wrote:
Why won't you open your mind to them?
And let the breeze in?

Sue

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Post by sevens » Thu Nov 24, 2005 4:22 pm

There's no separation, in the breeze.

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Post by sschaula » Thu Nov 24, 2005 5:34 pm

There's also no separation in David's words.

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Post by David Quinn » Sat Nov 26, 2005 10:33 am

Sue,
DQ: … a woman's mind is not perfectly fluid. There is a gravitational attractor insider her which shapes the flow …

S: You could say the sunglasses gave a concrete direction or goal to Elizabeth’s emotional flow. “Yes, all’s better now, kiss kiss hug hug - now where are my sunnies?”

Things are very important to woman, because without them woman doesn't exist. As in the case of Elizabeth and her sunglasses: the sunglasses are Elizabeth, as are all her other things – past, present and future.
Why couldn't she just buy another pair of sunglasses? It would probably be far less trouble.

Without an internal life, the only evidence of her existence is in the things she collects.
I suppose that is why she likes to surround herself with lots of "beautiful things". And also, why she likes to dress sexually. "I wear see-through, therefore I am".

My point about Brad being “just part of the vague”, refers to Elizabeth’s closer connection with things (such as the sunglasses) than with the person, ‘Brad’. This is because women experience people in the same way they experience other things. They cannot know or understand anything truly, because they cannot discriminate between one thing and another thing. The whole world is at her disposal, always creating new things for her to slide into.
I'm not sure I understand this. If Brad and the sunglasses are just things at her disposal, then why does she feel a greater connection to her sunglasses? Isn't Brad just another thing that she can find her existence in?

DQ: Of course, she is willing to ostracize herself from one "in-crowd" if she is certain that another "in-crowd" is waiting with open arms. Being completely alone is her main fear.

S: This is evident in every facet of life. Women take things up and then drop them with the greatest of ease. She doesn’t discriminate between things, she just goes with the flow. So whatever is next on offer, she’ll pick it up and make it ‘her’.
Why do they get upset if something is taken away from them, such as a relationship?

Even when women find themselves in situations where there are no things (people, etc) to define them; that is to say, when they are completely alone - they still come up trumps. Because it is then that women go into the very core of their being and come back with – tears. Blubbering and wailing, even if no one else is there to see it, makes her feel better. Through her tears her femininity flows freely, keeping her connected to everything, and thereby providing her with an existence. So, the upside for woman is that femininity is always with her, and she is never truly alone; the downside is … well I suppose for any woman, there really is no ‘downside’ – “it’s all good”.

How does this square with the idea that she has no internal life and that she needs things around her to define her existence?

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Post by Dan Rowden » Sat Nov 26, 2005 11:02 am

DavidQuinn000 wrote:Why couldn't she just buy another pair of sunglasses? It would probably be far less trouble.


That's how a man would deal with matters because it would be symbolic of his independence; for her it's different. Without having thought about it too deeply, my first thought is that the return of the sunnies grants her some measure of forgiveness on his part. This gives her a final moral victory, of sorts. It's a bit like having the "last word" in an argument.


Dan Rowden

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Post by Leyla Shen » Sat Nov 26, 2005 2:38 pm

I suppose that is why she likes to surround herself with lots of "beautiful things". And also, why she likes to dress sexually. "I wear see-through, therefore I am".
!

Good one. (laughs!)

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Post by Leyla Shen » Sat Nov 26, 2005 2:44 pm

Why couldn't she just buy another pair of sunglasses? It would probably be far less trouble.
Because those ones are just perfect (unlike Brad) and she may not be able to find a pair just like them anywhere.

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Post by sue hindmarsh » Sun Nov 27, 2005 6:56 pm

David – I’ve decided to break my reply to your post up into more bite-size pieces.

Question 1)

David wrote:
Why couldn't she just buy another pair of sunglasses? It would probably be far less trouble.
Yes, it is hard to understand why the sunglasses were so important to her, especially when, as Dan wrote, she could have easily gone out and bought another pair. Her attachment to the sunglasses must be much deeper than them being just a particularly good pair. Leyla reckons the sunglasses are, “just perfect (unlike Brad) and she may not be able to find a pair just like them anywhere”. I think Leyla is onto something here. The sunglasses could have been a gift from Brad,and her asking for them back could be her ‘slap in the face’ to him, “I want the sunglasses, but I don’t want you!” (Anyone who has been through a messy break-up or divorce can attest to just how vindictive each side can become.) So Dan could be correct, the sunglasses became, “her … final moral victory” and she definitely got the “last word in (the) argument”.

* * *
Let’s see if all this adds up:

Let E = Elizabeth and B = Brad


E has a history of infidelity

B becomes her boyfriend anyway

E is a “blond”, has “thunder thighs” and “drones” on about nonsense

B accepts the above, as well as, her world of “blow dryers, golden retrievers, Prada Bags and Jelly Beans”.

E drinks too much and finds herself fooling around in ‘the bathroom’

B gets upset and tells her to bugger off

E says sorry and asks for her sunglasses back

B gets upset and tells her to bugger off again

E probably told her new boyfriend about her horrible old boyfriend (not mentioning ‘the bathroom incident’) and was given even better sunglasses.

B sits in the pub with his mates talking about how, "fucked in the head women ar… bloody hell, did you see the tits on that one!”

Summing up - we can see that Elizabeth was able to travel through this very ugly, messy affair, not only unscathed, but also way out in front.

Sue

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