The Mystic....

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Kunga
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Re: The Mystic....

Post by Kunga »

Dennis Mahar wrote:dependent origination fixes nihilism.

newsflash!
you lack inherent existence.
Ok.

What doesn't lack inherent existence ?
Even Emptiness is Empty.

Now what ?
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Re: The Mystic....

Post by Dennis Mahar »

Non-duality is fact.
Duality is theory.

As David says,
no boundaries anywhere.
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Kunga
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Re: The Mystic....

Post by Kunga »

Dennis Mahar wrote:Non-duality is fact.
Duality is theory.

As David says,
no boundaries anywhere.

If non-duality is a fact,
then duality isn't even a theory.
And "David' is Buddha .
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Re: The Mystic....

Post by Dennis Mahar »

duality is what you get.
non-duality is Reasoned.
your walk is between the mighty pillars of duality and non-duality.

depends if you trust Reason.
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Kunga
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Re: The Mystic....

Post by Kunga »

From now on keep your repressive thoughts to yourself Dennis Mahar,
You try to "help" others, but you don't know what you're doing.
FUCK OFF.

And don't respond to me anymore.
You make me sick.
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Re: The Mystic....

Post by Dennis Mahar »

love to you dear.
apologies for hurt.
don't trivialise me.
I bite back.
we're in the same boat.
forget it.
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Dan Rowden
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Re: The Mystic....

Post by Dan Rowden »

Well, thank God for that.
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Kunga
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Re: The Mystic....

Post by Kunga »

Sorry Dennis...Apologies accepted.
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Re: The Mystic....

Post by Dennis Mahar »

All is empty.
Every thought, feeling, sensation is a play of causality.
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Re: The Mystic....

Post by cousinbasil »

Dennis Mahar wrote:love to you dear.
apologies for hurt.
don't trivialise me.
I bite back.
we're in the same boat.
forget it.
How can it be possible to trivialise someone whose tonic note is that everything is meaningless? Your bite is meaningless, and so is your boat.
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Re: The Mystic....

Post by cousinbasil »

Dennis Mahar wrote:All is empty.
Every thought, feeling, sensation is a play of causality.
I'll thank you to speak for yourself.
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Re: The Mystic....

Post by Dennis Mahar »

What do you know Basil?
You know nothing.

You're tossed into the World and you're thrown out the other end.
Where did you come from, where do you go?

You'll come up with sentences and paragraphs that amount to zilch.

Those you love will be taken from you, you will gaze on their dead bodies and be met with profound silence as tears fall down your cheeks.

You 'don't know' Basil.

We're in the same boat.

An absurd,
stupid,
insane situation,
and you 'don't know'.
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Re: The Mystic....

Post by Pye »

.

So, Dennis . . . while not averse to your understanding of no inherent meaning to anything (if 'understanding' be different than 'meaning'), I am curious as to how you see yourself in relation to garden variety nihilism:
nihilism (L., nihil, "nothing"). Literally, nothingness. 1. In epistemology, the denial of any objective and real ground or state of truth. 2. The theory that nothing is knowable. All knowledge is illusory, worthless, meaningless, relative, and insignificant. 3. No knowledge is possible. Nothing can be known. 4. The psychological and philosophical state in which there is a loss of all ethical, religious, political, social values. 5. The skeptical denial of all that is regarded as real/unreal, knowledge/error, being/nonbeing, illusory/nonillusory; the denial of all value distinctions.
Now, I have not done all the backreading here yet, so perhaps if willing, you could respond in your way if anything of the above is in alignment with your thinking. It's problematic, I realize: is 'nothingness' the same as 'meaninglessness'; how are 'knowledge' and 'meaning' related (or not); how is 'nothingness' itself grasped, groked; is 'logic' excluded from the realm of meaning-making, etc. not to mention the overall problem of presenting you with a definition (meaning) in response to meaninglessness. I'd be interested in your thoughts to any/all of these things, if thoughts are possible to express without any meaning attendant to them . . . .



.
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Re: The Mystic....

Post by Dennis Mahar »

In order to get from 'troubled mind in perilous situation' to 'radiant mind accepting situation' logic is necessary.

Words have meaning. They point to external referents — things that exist outside themselves in the real world: agents, actions, and objects. It is their “about-ness,” their correspondence to something lying beyond a system of signs, that allows them to mean something.

Actions can have meaning. We can ask “What did you mean by that?” Human actions have underlying motives. There is something beyond the action itself, an intention that lies behind the action. We can look at actions and infer, or inquire into, the purpose that generated it.

Does the universe have meaning? The universe includes everything — it cannot point to or refer to something that lies outside itself — it cannot signify anything. The universe is also not a purposeful agent — it doesn’t possess intentionality.

We just hang out here, earn a living, and take care of our families. If there’s some larger purpose, who knows?

In any case, Zen doesn’t posit any purpose for the universe. It (we) just always is (was)/(will be), in constant transformation. Its “meaning” (in this case “meaning” is a meaningless term) is its existence.

One way to give life meaning is to believe in some superordinate external meaning-giving source. If one believes in a God, one can believe that the God imbues the universe and our lives with purpose. After all, God lies outside the universe giving it something to refer to, and he possesses intentionality. That’s two kinds of meaning in one! If one doesn’t believe in God, however, one is out of luck.

Existentialists believe that while the universe has no purpose, we can imbue our own lives with purpose. Meaning is something human beings create. As authors of our own existence, we ourselves can endow our lives with meaning. In Existentialism, meaning isn’t there to be found — it’s up to us to create it. This is both liberating and burdensome at the same time. Liberating, because we are not bound to accept meaning from an external authority. Burdensome, because if we fail to define a purpose, our lives are left meaningless.
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Kunga
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Re: The Mystic....

Post by Kunga »

Dennis Mahar wrote:if we fail to define a purpose, our lives are left meaningless.
Says who?


The sage never has a mind of his own:
He considers the minds of the common people to be his mind.

Treat well those that are good,
Also treat well those who are not good;
thus is goodness attained.

Be sincere to those who are sincere,
Also be sincere to those who are insincere;
thus is sincerety attained.

The sage
is self-effacing in his dealings with all under heaven,
and bemuddles his mind for the sake of all under heaven.

The common people all rivet their eyes and ears upon him,
And the sage makes them all chuckle like children.


[Lao Tzu /49/Tao te Ching]


One never knows how deeply one has touched another life.
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Dan Rowden
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Re: The Mystic....

Post by Dan Rowden »

I'm starting to wonder if the Tao te Ching is even a worthwhile document for most people given the huge diversity of translations that exist. There seems to be one just right for each person's own philosophic/spiritual/poetic prejudice. In your case, Kunga, I'd stick with one that you feel it totally wrong for you. It'll probably be a good one.
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Kunga
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Re: The Mystic....

Post by Kunga »

Ok, which one do you prefer ?
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Kunga
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Re: The Mystic....

Post by Kunga »

btw...the one i just quoted from is based on the Ma-Wang-Tui Manuscripts (by Victor H. Mair)
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Re: The Mystic....

Post by cousinbasil »

What do you know Basil?
You know nothing.
I think I have admitted as much. I know nothing. I will bet my nothing is bigger than your nothing.
You'll come up with sentences and paragraphs that amount to zilch.
Less than zero, in fact. And because you are intelligent and consistent, you are aware the same applies to yourself.
Those you love will be taken from you, you will gaze on their dead bodies and be met with profound silence as tears fall down your cheeks.
Well, shit - I don't live in a war zone, give me a break. Many whom I have loved have been taken from me, but the dead bodies I have gazed on have yet to produce a single tear.
An absurd,
stupid,
insane situation,
and you 'don't know'.
I may not know, but you certainly don't. Listen to yourself. Absurd, stupid, and insane. These are the words you choose to characterize the "situation," by which you mean life. Absurd compared to what? Stupid compared to what? Insane compared to what? Whatever you choose to fill in the blanks, is that not also a part of life?

What happened? Did someone you care about just die?
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Kunga
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Re: The Mystic....

Post by Kunga »

Kunga wrote:btw...the one i just quoted from is based on the Ma-Wang-Tui Manuscripts (by Victor H. Mair)
In 1990, the noted sinologist Victor H. Mair translated the Ma-wang-tui version as he considered this earliest known version (by 500 years) to be far more authentic than the most commonly translated texts.
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Kunga
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Re: The Mystic....

Post by Kunga »

cousinbasil wrote:What happened? Did someone you care about just die?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MuAgTGUNcNc
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Re: The Mystic....

Post by Dennis Mahar »

I may not know, but you certainly don't. Listen to yourself. Absurd, stupid, and insane. These are the words you choose to characterize the "situation," by which you mean life. Absurd compared to what? Stupid compared to what? Insane compared to what? Whatever you choose to fill in the blanks, is that not also a part of life?
The fact of 'don't know' renders the situation absurd, stupid, insane that generates Stories.
Meaning is something you take on.

Try this on for size.
absence of meaning.

A friend of mine's 24 yo daughter recently stopped on the freeway as her car engine had stalled, she left the car to open the bonnet and a truck hit her.
What point would you like to make?
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Dan Rowden
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Re: The Mystic....

Post by Dan Rowden »

That's what mirrors are for?
Dennis Mahar
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Re: The Mystic....

Post by Dennis Mahar »

That's what mirrors are for?
What you've said there is causes/conditions.
the play of causality.
there is nothing else.
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Re: The Mystic....

Post by Dan Rowden »

Actually there's not even that.
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