Masculinity: the ability to accept criticism

[Kelly Jones]

An example of strong masculinity

(Note. In the following, B is a strongly masculine person. A is not categorised.)




A calls B an idiot over something B has done or said. B assesses the critique of "idiot" using his own value system. Masculine-mindedness does not care whether A is a bigger idiot than A at this moment, or most of the time. It just assesses the verity of a statement.

If the critique is correct, B accepts the critique. That's all. Note: There are no hurt feelings, no wounded pride, and no urge to take revenge or compensate for perceived loss of status. All of that is superfluous to this strong masculine individual.

If the critique is incorrect, B challenges the critique. There is no contempt, vindictiveness, swearing, belittling, pride, or desire to belabour an inferior.



A further note:
If through this exchange, B notices that A is not a strong, rational individual, but rather someone who tends to fall into egotistical reactions when challenged rationally, then B will try to assist A to understand, and, if necessary, point out the unhelpfulness and unreasonableness of the egotistical stuff. If A's level drops even further, B then needs to consider why it is beneficial to interact with A. At this point, A is not being assisted any longer; however, there may be some advantages to B in continuing the interaction. For instance, A becomes a useful study example of egotism, which can offer many opportunities for strengthening masculinity by illustrating what is irrational and ineffective.



It goes without saying that this is an impersonal illustration. It is intended for the edification of persons of varying levels of masculinity.



.

[Dan Rowden]

The degree to which one actually values truth is pivotal in this also, as that valuation really determines how one will engage any hypothesis, including that of one possibly being an idiot.

[jupiviv]

I would say that a very masculine person wouldn't bother dealing with a criticism that is irrational. He'd know if it is rational or irrational from the start, as he would have the greatest consciousness of himself. In fact, the absolutely masculine person(who doesn't exist) cannot be criticised, because all criticism/judgment, in the truest sense, is merely a way of externally pointing out the unconscious in a person. The more conscious you become, you become less prone to criticism and at the same time more open to criticism.

[Dan Rowden]

Which means, in a nutshell - the truly masculine person has no need of or real interest in external criticism because he's able to be self-critical, and probably to a higher standard anyway.

[Kelly Jones]

Something that isn't necessary for an basic understanding of this theme, but which is appropriate for those who'd like to explore it more comprehensively, is a discussion of egotistical responses in everyday life. That is, learning how to deal with different manifestations of egotism. For example, a strong-minded and truthful individual simply may not have any real experience with certain types of people or belief systems. While it wouldn't take them long to work it out, they may make some mistakes initially. In that respect, criticisms of how they handle interactions may be fair enough, yet perhaps be better described as critiquing a method, or advice on what works better.

This all sounds fair enough, but if a couple of such individuals have a discussion about egotistical manifestations realistically and honestly, it may actually sound like they're paranoid and upset, because of the detail of their descriptions. But they're just describing what's going on, like two scientists analysing cancer formations and sharing information.

.

[Kelly Jones]

I dispute your opinion that an idea is rational only when others share it. Thus have I disproved it.......

And, since your entire response was based on that idea, there is nothing now to say. Try instead to provide a definition of masculinity that you yourself regard as reliable. I don't really think you believe that women desire personal power less than men, for instance.

.

[jupiviv]

Dejavu

[Kunga]

Perhaps the ability to accept criticism depends on whom is doing the criticising . If there is no respect for the person being critical, no matter how truthful, then there is no getting through to them. If you lack skillfulness in your method of critique you will also fail to convince others .

[Anders Schlander]

well, even a moron might be correct once in a while, so in that sense, you can self-examine what a moron says, based on how what he says relate to your own self, without caring about where it ultimately came from.

edit: still, I would imagine that some people can be stupid enough to warrant that you simply ignore them, with the emperical evidence piling up that they will never say anything substantial

[Diebert van Rhijn]

Can I put it this way? Masculinity is warlike.

True enough as men cannot help being on some war path over all that feminine stuff. But greater men are the peace makers. Simply because the sacrifice is bigger, the vision is wider and more unifying principles are required for this particular battle. Most sheep settle for just desiring a lack of war, a "no" vision; a self-delusion.

[Anders Schlander]

if masculinity means warlike and warlike means defeating something, then femininity does that equally well, as the great femininity destroys reason and rationality; If Warlike means defeating unconsciousness by being conscious, then okay. What war is really being waged? is there conscious values to being warlike?

[Kunga]

War-like just means aggressive. Whereas Passive is feminine. Masculine is agressive...like a warrior. Females can have agressive traits too as they probebly have more testosterone than the average female.

In War men are defending territory. War-like is defensive. People that get defensive are defending their view, rights,turf, whatever it is. It's part of our survival mechanism. Fight or flight. When we evolve more we will be more peaceful, as we've out-grown our agressive nature, by living through too many groteque wars. We will be tired of killing each other...and realize higher truths...which will lead to peaceful solutions. But it will take many more thousands of years before we evolve to that state.

The ability to accept criticism does not lie in masculinity....just look at the state of affairs in the world and with governments...if the nature of masculinity was able to accept criticism we woldn't have continuous wars or political battles. There would be much more peace.

[Kelly Jones]

O you dullard! What would I be if I did not dispute it too?

Your point was that an idea or statement is proved rational if others agree with it. It's obviously an idiotic way to determine rationality, because it always waits on someone else's opinion, which in turn must wait on someone else's opinion, ad infinitum. No statement can be proved rational ---- therefore, you could never assert that statement rationally. Try to think these things through, dejavu.

How can you miss my point so perfectly?! What I was after is your personal response to my criticism! Your natural defence, you unnatural creature. Where is your genius you flapjack?

There is no need for all the superfluous words, dejavu. Just indicate your definiton of masculinity, and if it is reliable, I can discuss it. At present, you're still assuming that it is creditable, and assuming that I ought to agree with it.

It looks to me that "personal" to you means, "emotionally incontinent, offering no definitions or reasoning, insubstantial, vague, wafty." I really can't offer you that, because to me it has no place in a rational discussion. As I mentioned at the beginning of this thread, there may be other reasons why I engage with you in discussion, seeing as this kind of very low-level rationality, and flights into vague emotionalism is characteristic of you.

Women are not as near-sighted as men when it comes to seeking power. On the whole, they understand the effects of appreciation more instinctively.

Power is about being able to effect a result as strongly and lastingly as possible. So getting someone to appreciate you is easily destroyed and may last only an instant. It's hardly power at all. Emotion is one of the most wispy and fleeting forces, easily changed and extremely inconstant.

Can I put it this way? Masculinity is warlike.

You can put it any way you like. But unless you offer more complete definitions, and reasons or evidence supporting them, it just sounds arbitrary and/or vague.

.

[Dan Rowden]

Overall, I have thought more deeply than you. When I criticize your "wise misogyny" as idiotic, or your preoccupation with the sexes as retarded it is constructive criticism, no matter what you may think.

It is not constructive, because it contains no substance wherever. Your engagement with that issue has always been emotional and utterly vacuous.

[Jamesh]

Overall, I have thought more deeply than you. When I criticize your "wise misogyny" as idiotic, or your preoccupation with the sexes as retarded it is constructive criticism, no matter what you may think.

I also believe she goes over the top. There is a underlying disgust towards "the feminine" in the manner in which she puts forth her arguments.

When Kelly was a sexual entity she was a lesbian. It must be harder for her to step above the values she works within that are attached to sexual duality. She wishes to be as masculine minded as she can be, so naturally the rejection of femininity is the manner in which she opposes her past (as in the manner in which past memories affect her thoughts). Therefore, it is perhaps not right to say her values are "retarded" as she has chosen to minimise her own pulls to femininity via total rejection, and that does not appear to be an irrational path for her circumstances.

Still I would like to see her move away from being concerned about femininity itself, to a less earnest attitude on the issue - a bit of give and take. She still needs to come down from the mountain of rejection, and back to the land of the living. Loving masculinity and hating femininity is dualistic. Such terms are mere labels, not truth, they are too restricted definitionally to describe the human condition, and the reality of all its activities as being combinations of both such not truly existing poles.

While, I shall always disagree with the QRS "we-only-accept-the-positive-as-masculine-attributes" viewpoint, that does not mean I support negative-femininity. Sure, take up the positive masculine attributes for yourself, and try and lead others to see where femininity/"Woman" as a group meme falls down, but don't be concerned if others don't accept. There should be little need to get into great long debates about the precise virtues of either pole.

When she demonstrates her masculine mindedness in other philosophical areas, such as the opening post, then I do not feel the same sense of her viewpoints being blemished by being intertwined with underlying emotions. There is only a one-sidedness in relation to truth being "the supreme", which is OK as that viewpoint is a horses for courses matter, and this is the right racecourse.

[Kelly Jones]

Overall, I have thought more deeply than you. When I criticize your "wise misogyny" as idiotic, or your preoccupation with the sexes as retarded it is constructive criticism, no matter what you may think.

I also believe she goes over the top. There is a underlying disgust towards "the feminine" in the manner in which she puts forth her arguments.

I think you're projecting a distaste of misogyny onto what you perceive my attitudes are, characterising them as excessive in relation to what you're comfortable with.

When Kelly was a sexual entity she was a lesbian.

If you'd like my humble opinion, I always tied your classification of me as a lesbian in past years, to your reluctance to be found displeasing by women. Sometime back, I think it was late in 2004 or the summer of 2005, although in what context you wrote it I can no longer remember, you posted that you would choose not to have a beard, because you believed it would make you appear scary to women, and you didn't want that. At the time, I remember Dan said you were making "jack progress", and you responded nonchalantly that you didn't think so. I mean, James, hell, man. Can't you see what is happening with you?

In other words, it looked as though you couldn't really understand a female who had no real interest in sexual relationship. It was probably your own ambivalence about being a self-contained thinker vs. being serviceable to women, that moved you to turn me into a woman who simply didn't find you attractive. It was your own affair, and nothing to do with me.

Similarly, you admitted recently that you struggle with the idea of the absolute. It's to do with your own situation. When "strangers" come onto the board attacking the ideas here, you're clearly on-board to defend the idea of the absolute from attack. So you're situated quite near to it, but you're still deeply ambivalent. When you're face-to-face with immersing yourself into wisdom, you have - as Dan puts it - antsy-in-the-pantsy. ;-)

It must be harder for her to step above the values she works within that are attached to sexual duality. She wishes to be as masculine minded as she can be, so naturally the rejection of femininity is the manner in which she opposes her past (as in the manner in which past memories affect her thoughts). Therefore, it is perhaps not right to say her values are "retarded" as she has chosen to minimise her own pulls to femininity via total rejection, and that does not appear to be an irrational path for her circumstances.

Still I would like to see her move away from being concerned about femininity itself, to a less earnest attitude on the issue - a bit of give and take. She still needs to come down from the mountain of rejection, and back to the land of the living. Loving masculinity and hating femininity is dualistic. Such terms are mere labels, not truth, they are too restricted definitionally to describe the human condition, and the reality of all its activities as being combinations of both such not truly existing poles.

While, I shall always disagree with the QRS "we-only-accept-the-positive-as-masculine-attributes" viewpoint, that does not mean I support negative-femininity. Sure, take up the positive masculine attributes for yourself, and try and lead others to see where femininity/"Woman" as a group meme falls down, but don't be concerned if others don't accept. There should be little need to get into great long debates about the precise virtues of either pole.

When she demonstrates her masculine mindedness in other philosophical areas, such as the opening post, then I do not feel the same sense of her viewpoints being blemished by being intertwined with underlying emotions. There is only a one-sidedness in relation to truth being "the supreme", which is OK as that viewpoint is a horses for courses matter, and this is the right racecourse.

It's probable that your attitude to masculinity and femininity is related to the majority of humans only. By contrast, I took the basic skeleton of sexually differentiable psychology from my own experiences, clearly saw that the skeletal structure matched all humans that I encountered, and then developed a far more developed and intricate understanding that not only encapsulated my observations of other people, but zoomed to new summits in regards to the fleshing-out of masculinity. This is perhaps why you cannot understand the relevance of masculinity. You haven't pushed yourself sufficiently, within the masculine path, to see how useful and accurate it is as a psychological paradigm on the path of enlightenment.

I cannot conceive of dualism in this respect being disadvantageous. To speak about masculinity as being rejection only indicates a lack of experience of this great wealth of inward development, which is actually the only positive that one can speak of. Femininity is not a positive, since there is no development within the feminine. There is no balance, nor give and take. It would not be accurate to speak of the positive psychological traits as being feminine in aspect, because there are no wise women, and only the most superficial semblance of wisdom, which quickly falls apart when "wise women" present their truths. That's just how it is. As soon as females approach wisdom, they become masculine. It's simply how it is. When females present credible, rational truths about Reality, however far they may be from perfect wisdom, such females' "emotion ECG" is a flatliner. They're unemotional, unpompous, solitary, grounded, unromantic, simple, and hardnosed without being harsh. They are basically men. Femininity is not a philosophical positive.

But there is so much within the world of men that comes very close to wisdom. Even in technical sports, or computer game, proficiency, which is one of the lesser forms of masculinity, there is an appreciation for the idea of very detailed yet universal strokes of causation through consciousness of the interplay of countless factors. There is much more one can excavate from even these mundane examples of what men incline to find interesting, and see relationships to the bodhicitta mind. Primarily, awareness.

Thus, "rejection of the feminine" isn't actually the full story, in the same way that "lack of ill-health" would not accurately describe the state of being of a champion athlete. And, similarly, I cannot conceive of enlightenment as being other than the land of the living. To call the negativity and confusion of feminine-mindedness, which includes ambivalent masculinity, as the land of the living, has to be extremely ironic.


.

[mensa-maniac]

An example of strong masculinity

Mensa maniac says: A=A until A becomes B and B becomes A, than A = half A and half B, and B = half B and half A! Then it will read AB = AB, and BA= BA!

(Note. In the following, B is a strongly masculine person. A is not categorised.)


A calls B an idiot over something B has done or said. B assesses the critique of "idiot" using his own value system. Masculine-mindedness does not care whether A is a bigger idiot than A at this moment, or most of the time. It just assesses the verity of a statement.

If the critique is correct, B accepts the critique. That's all. Note: There are no hurt feelings, no wounded pride, and no urge to take revenge or compensate for perceived loss of status. All of that is superfluous to this strong masculine individual.

If the critique is incorrect, B challenges the critique. There is no contempt, vindictiveness, swearing, belittling, pride, or desire to belabour an inferior.

Mensa says: Excellent perception! I was the idiot A, while David was B, now I'm B while David is still B!

A further note:
If through this exchange, B notices that A is not a strong, rational individual, but rather someone who tends to fall into egotistical reactions when challenged rationally, then B will try to assist A to understand, and, if necessary, point out the unhelpfulness and unreasonableness of the egotistical stuff. If A's level drops even further, B then needs to consider why it is beneficial to interact with A. At this point, A is not being assisted any longer; however, there may be some advantages to B in continuing the interaction. For instance, A becomes a useful study example of egotism, which can offer many opportunities for strengthening masculinity by illustrating what is irrational and ineffective.

Mensa says: Excellent Illustrations!

It goes without saying that this is an impersonal illustration. It is intended for the edification of persons of varying levels of masculinity.

Mensa says: I would like to speak here but someone is in here reading this post at the same time I am and it literally stops me from writing. It may be GOOGLE!



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[pierdog]

I've always been too hypnotized by critical insight directed at me to have a knee-jerk negative response since I abandoned womanish behavior in my early 20s, now I know my few lingering weaknesses and that overcoming them is a matter of time & experience, which I showed in my whore thread where Kelly, Dan, Anders & Diebert showed that they know how to look into a man's soul with relatively little info. Thanks.

[Kelly Jones]

Wit is all too often used in the same way that forest fire-fighters use fire - to prevent or stop a larger blaze. Small truths eat-up the fuel and form a barrier against larger and more dangerous truths. Wit becomes an attempt to beat the Devil, in this case the truth, at his own game.


Vanity is the result of a delusion that someone is paying attention.


The youth gets together materials for a bridge to the moon, and at length the middle-aged man decides to make a woodshed with them.


At twenty a man is a peacock, at thirty a lion, at forty a camel; at fifty a serpent, at sixty a dog, at seventy an ape, at eighty nothing at all.


The American mind, unlike the English, is not formed by books, but by newspapers and the Bible.


No matter how worthless a man is, there's always a woman and a dog that love him.



- Wit for Wisdom

[mensa-maniac]

Criticism isn't a weakness for me, I'm not bothered in the least by what people say or don't say. I let comments go by as if I didn't even hear them. However, important comments ring in my ears alarming me into action.

What are important comments, they are what trigger your thoughts into fighting back, the ones which challenge the action.

[Tomas]

.-mensa-maniac-
Criticism isn't a weakness for me, I'm not bothered in the least by what people say or don't say.

-tomas-
Yes, my parents were less-than-stellar in their outlook on life.
Learned at a young age not to believe much of what they said.


-Mensa-
I let comments go by as if I didn't even hear them.

-tomas-
Ditto for most of the time. If it's comments from young children or old folks, different story.


-Mensa-
However, important comments ring in my ears alarming me into action.

-tomas-
Yup, run-of-the-mill importancies can take a number.


-Mensa-
What are important comments, they are what trigger your thoughts into fighting back, the ones which challenge the action.

-tomas-
Good observation!!

[Kunga]

Anyone that thinks masculinity is superior to femininity has their head up their ass and loves the smell .

Masculinity : The ability to rape and abuse women and children :


News Home World news Headlines
Girls as young as two facing rape in tent cities as UN security patrols fail to protect women after Haiti earthquake
By DAVID GARDNER

Girls as young as two are falling victim to rapists who are preying on women and children left homeless by the devastating earthquake in Haiti.

Rape is rife in the sprawling tent cities that have become home for hundreds of thousands of Haitians and men are demanding sexual favours in return for food and shelter, according to a report published today.

Doctors are treating children aged two and seven who have been raped in the past fortnight at a refugee camp set up on a golf course in Port-au-Prince.


Rape is rife in the tent cities which have sprung up after the devastating Haiti earthquake with patrols failing to protect women and girls (file picture)

The shocking revelations were revealed by Alison Thompson, a volunteer medical coordinator for a Haitian relief group created by the actor Sean Penn.

'Women aren't being protected,' she said. 'So when the lights go down is when the rapes increase, and it's happening daily in all the camps in Port-au-Prince.'

With no lighting and no security, the makeshift homes that were supposed to be a haven for the homeless victims of the January 12 earthquake have become menacing places after sunset, particularly for women and children left orphaned or alone by the disaster that claimed 200,000 lives.

But most of the attacks go unreported because of the shame, social stigma and fear of reprisals from attackers.

'Young girls have to negotiate sexually in order to get shelter from the rains and access to food aid,' said a report by the Interuniversity Institute for Research and Development in Haiti.


Men in the tent cities are said to be demanding sexual favours before handing out much needed food and aid to survivors of the quake

One 21-year-old mother, who said she was gang raped by three men, complained her family had received no food aid because Haitian men were demanding sex before they would hand over distribution coupons.

One of the biggest camps, where more than 47,000 people are crowded into a sports ground in the centre of the city, is home to more than a dozen escaped convicts, among them a man accused of a notorious murder.

'But nobody says anything because they're scared, scared of the criminals and scared of the police,' said Fritznel Pierre, a human rights advocate who lives at the camp.

He has documented three rapes, including one of a 17-year-old who was a virgin before six men attacked and raped her repeatedly.

'I really worry about the teenager because she has no one to look out for her.

'She says she sees her attackers but is afraid to report them because she would then have to leave the camp and she has nowhere to go,' he added.

Aid workers said UN patrols are sparse and ineffective, with security staff rarely getting out of their vehicles.

Besides sexually transmitted diseases and pregnancy, victims face possible AIDS infection. Haiti has the highest HIV rate in the Western Hemisphere, with one in 50 people infected.

Among the many victims is an 18-year-old girl who lost her parents, grandmother, a sister and three cousins in the quake.

She was roaming the streets distraught when a middle-aged man approached and promised that his wife would look after her.

He took her to a house and then left and returned with two men. They raped her repeatedly until she managed to escape.

She was one of a number of rape victims who appealed to a group of American volunteer lawyers to help them win humanitarian asylum to the U.S.

'I've been here five days and have spoken to 30 rape survivors including a dozen under 18.

'Their stories are horrific. I would be catatonic,' said San Francisco lawyer Jayne Fleming.

Haiti police chief Mario Andresol blamed the attacks on the 7,000 prisoners who escaped.

'Bandits are taking advantage to harass and rape women and young girls under the tents,' he said.

'We are aware of the problem, but it's not a priority,' information minister Marie-Laurence Jocelyn Lassegue said last month.

The first signs of action came at the weekend with a visit by UN Secretary-General Ban Ki-moon. He promised the camps will be 'safe and secure'.

'We must protect these women and girls. If they are sexually abused and attacked and raped, that is totally unacceptable and intolerable and we must stop it,' he added.


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This is unbelievable, these young girls and women should be given tents and be kept safe, our army should be out there protecting these people not fighting wars over oil! For a the information minister Marie-Laurence Jocelyn Lassegue to say "we are aware of the problem, but it's not a priority is unbelievable. Maybe she should go and live in one of these tents and see how much of a priority it would be then!

Who gave the Haitian men the right to distribute the food tokens, this is just laughable, it should be organised by the women, who will feed children and old people first, not the men whose first priority is always themselves!!

Disgusting!
- Anne, Devon, 18/3/2010 13:15
Click to rate Rating 31 Report abuse
Words fail me... the evil people do to one another....
- Becky, Epsom, 18/3/2010 11:35
Click to rate Rating 30 Report abuse
It is a war zone and has no law and order. It is very common women become victims.
- Ms D.Lee, Hong Kong, 18/3/2010 10:16
Click to rate Rating 11 Report abuse
Words fail me.

Comparing this scum to animals would be an insult to animals who protect their young and their females.
- am, brussels, 17/3/2010 23:24
Click to rate Rating 32 Report abuse
The men should be protecting the women, not demanding sexual favours in return for food and shelter. These actions clearly demonstrates why Haiti is in the position it's in today. These people have the mindset of Animals.

Uncivilzed people=Uncivilized nation

The nature, culture and civilisation of a nation is determined by those who inhabit it.
- David, Brixton, London, 17/3/2010 22:34
Click to rate Rating 22 Report abuse
scum......MEN WHO DO SUCH THINGS ARE PLAINLY EVIL AND MAY GOD CURSE THEM

More shame for Tiger Woods as porn star mistress reveals the raunchy 'sexts' he sent her
And he does not come across as a nice fella

Husband died setting fire to dream home to stop his estranged wife getting it

Two men go on trial for murder of British teenager Scarlett Keeling in Goa
Paedophile babysitter raped girl, 5, after authorities failed to tell mother he was a convicted sex offender


Masculinity : the ability to accept criticism
Femininity : the ability to see injustice

We need to co-exist peacefully together.

[pierdog]

Justice is highly subjective in Modern society, so dumb twatty cunts who can't see beyond their individualism project their own conflicts externally and take sides accordingly, all the different, conflicting kinds of political activism & ideologies prove that a cunt 'standing against injustice' is WILLFULLY blind to her own rhetoric, ignorance of semantics and is anti-consensus, ie: TOXIC for social cohesion when not controled by Man

[Kunga]

Justice is highly subjective in Modern society, those who can't see beyond their individualism project their own conflicts externally and take sides accordingly, all the different, conflicting kinds of political activism & ideologies prove that a woman 'standing against injustice' is WILLFULLY blind to her own rhetoric, ignorance of semantics and is anti-consensus, ie: TOXIC for social cohesion when not controled by Man

Modern Men need to learn how to control themselves first, before any Modern woman will be wiling to have him control her.

:)

[Anders Schlander]

please, any woman that lets herself be controlled is in no way modern, but extremely primitive as a human being, yet it's men who are controlled by their desires, so a man controlling a woman is really being controlled, if you will.

plus, its absurd that a man has to control or restrain himself *before* he chases after a woman to 'control'. That's what i call losing control, not having control. What Kunga is really saying is that a man must be seen to have control, yet be willing to lose it. A great mastermind, but whipped at the same time?

Such a man, if controlling himself, is only doing so selfishly, he wants to be seen to have control, but he wants to submit to his desires, his very apperance of control is an illusion, he is really in the mercy of his desire the entire time, he has no control over these desires, hence, a man looks in a control, yet isn't. There is no control, just like there is no saintly whores, but only those whom whore, under the pretence of being saintly. Women are fooled by control, men by saints.