Finally, a break for REM sleep researchers

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Foreigner
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Finally, a break for REM sleep researchers

Post by Foreigner » Wed Jan 20, 2010 11:59 pm

You've got to have pity on struggling researchers and behavioral scientists at times, adding theory upon theory over the years and over the decades as they so love to do yet, not approaching any closer to the reality of some perplexing human phenomenon. Well, I'm going to anyway...

Take for instance the so-called "REM" sleep stages which-- as many researchers claim-- we people all undergo often several times a night while dreaming in deepest sleep, Eyes Rapidly darting and Moving about behind downed eyelids. And as it turns out, it appears that not even one of these "geniuses"-- counting backward from this morning to and through Freud himself-- has thought to consider and examine the essential role played by these thin flaps of skin, instead concentrating merely on the subjects' psychology, past-life and dream interpretation.

So there you have it, i dare not say more, clues sufficient wouldnt you say, to get one started.
So experiment away all you experimenters. And do report findings here, so that i may help you along according to your needs.

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FOREIGNER

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Jason
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Re: Finally, a break for REM sleep researchers

Post by Jason » Thu Jan 21, 2010 1:14 am

Macquarie Tribune wrote:For centuries it has been known that human eyes, like the teeth of some rodents, continue to grow up until death. And, just like rodent's teeth, the ever-growing eyes must be regularly trimmed back to a manageable size to prevent them from interfering with everyday tasks. Until recently ophthalmologists believed that caustic proteins within the eye were responsible for clearing away the excess tissue growth but groundbreaking new research from Bern University has stunned the ophthalmological world and overturned this long held belief.

The study, published yesterday in prestigious science journal Nature, showed that rapid eye movement or ""REM", a state of sleep in which the eyes dart around behind closed eyelids, is actually responsible for maintaining the size of the eyes. The Swiss study demonstrated for the first time that the inner surface of the human eyelid is not smooth as had previously been believed but actually resembles the texture of fine sandpaper. When a sleeper enters into REM sleep the eyes rub against this abrasive skin sloshing off the excess eye tissue that has built up during the previous day.

Dramatic before-and-after photographs from the four week study show the deleterious effect that infrequent REM sleep had on the eyes of research subjects.

Lead researcher Dr Sven Hamot said that the findings will have a profound impact on the way REM sleep is viewed in the future.
(Edit: What I wrote above is a joke; I hate the thought of it possibly being taken seriously by someone and becoming misinformation - Jason)
Last edited by Jason on Fri Jan 22, 2010 12:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.

IJesusChrist
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Re: Finally, a break for REM sleep researchers

Post by IJesusChrist » Thu Jan 21, 2010 5:33 am

Your eyes are shut so they don't dry out.

The movement with your eyes actually stimulates memory - and memory retrieval.
To think or not to think.

Animus
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Re: Finally, a break for REM sleep researchers

Post by Animus » Thu Jan 21, 2010 6:18 pm

Bullshit! (All of it)

IJesusChrist
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Re: Finally, a break for REM sleep researchers

Post by IJesusChrist » Fri Jan 22, 2010 3:24 am

A new study suggests a study of eye movement patterns may provide insight on memory.

The research is compelling as memory may be recalled even when an individual is unable (or perhaps unwilling) to report what they remember.

The research, published by Cell Press in the journal Neuron, provides insight into the relationship between activity in the hippocampus, eye movements, and both conscious and unconscious memory.
http://psychcentral.com/news/2009/09/10 ... /8280.html
To think or not to think.

Animus
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Re: Finally, a break for REM sleep researchers

Post by Animus » Fri Jan 22, 2010 5:19 am

IJesusChrist wrote:The movement with your eyes actually stimulates memory - and memory retrieval.
Ok, let's fix up this statement to be accurate: "The movement with your eyes actually correlates with memory retrieval during REM sleep."

IJesusChrist
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Re: Finally, a break for REM sleep researchers

Post by IJesusChrist » Fri Jan 22, 2010 5:46 am

...

KAYTHNX
To think or not to think.

Animus
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Re: Finally, a break for REM sleep researchers

Post by Animus » Fri Jan 22, 2010 7:43 am

This is very important IJC: Correlation does NOT imply causation.

Eye movement during sleep correlate (not stimulate) with memory retrieval. Until it is shown that eye saccades act as a sufficient cause for memory retrieval, then "stimulate" is an inappropriate word. They don't mention this, but eye movements are typically the domain of the Superior Colliculus, which is connected to the Lateral Geniculate Nucleus, part of the Thalamus and not the Hippocampus. The Hippocampus and Thalamus, are related to each other, as all the brain is, but the eye movement activity of the SC only correlates with the memory retrieval of the hippocampus. It is more likely to be the case that memory retrieval stimulates eye movements, that is when a visual memory is represented the eyes attempt to track features of that visual memory, rather than eye movements stimulating memory retrieval.

Animus
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Re: Finally, a break for REM sleep researchers

Post by Animus » Fri Jan 22, 2010 8:09 am

Check it out: http://131.104.216.80/faculty/peters/la ... ampal.html

On Plate 4 the hippocampus is marked by the number 35 and the Superior Colliculus is marked as number 2.

In Plate 6, the hippocampus has been "peeled back" to expose the underlying thalamus. The Pulvinar Nucleus is the caudal-most nucleus of the thalamus. "This image also shows the pulvinar nucleus (31) which lies lateral to the pineal gland. This nucleus receives input from, among other places, part of the visual cortex, and sends fibres to the superior colliculus (2)."

In this diagram (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/c ... ray722.png) you can see the optic tract connects up to the pulvinar nucleus and to the superior colliculus.

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Jason
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Re: Finally, a break for REM sleep researchers

Post by Jason » Fri Jan 22, 2010 12:25 pm

Animus wrote:This is very important IJC: Correlation does NOT imply causation.
Science is built on correlation implying causation.

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Re: Finally, a break for REM sleep researchers

Post by Animus » Fri Jan 22, 2010 3:24 pm

Jason wrote:Science is built on correlation implying causation.
No, its not.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Correlatio ... _causation


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Re: Finally, a break for REM sleep researchers

Post by Animus » Fri Jan 22, 2010 6:37 pm

Jason wrote:Yes it is:
Holy fuck dude. Use your brain. Science is founded on skepticism, "Correlation does NOT imply causation" is the motto of science. Its not slapping together fanciful ideas and calling it a day. Its founded on testing everything to the n-th possible degree. Science is founded on the fact that you can't make simple inferences from correlation, thus rigorous testing and skeptical analysis is performed. To avoid anyone believing what they want, all theories are subject to the skepticism of the entire community. Which is why I call all of these claims bullshit, I'm skeptical of them, I don't believe them. Maybe you believe in them too easily. Your "Dramatic before and after photograph" is of a World Record Contestant named Claudio Paulo Pinto who uses his eye muscles for saccades to force his eyes out of their sockets. It has nothing to do with the crap you posted.

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Jason
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Re: Finally, a break for REM sleep researchers

Post by Jason » Fri Jan 22, 2010 7:14 pm

Animus wrote:Science is founded on skepticism, "Correlation does NOT imply causation" is the motto of science. Its not slapping together fanciful ideas and calling it a day. Its founded on testing everything to the n-th possible degree. Science is founded on the fact that you can't make simple inferences from correlation, thus rigorous testing and skeptical analysis is performed. To avoid anyone believing what they want, all theories are subject to the skepticism of the entire community.
That's all very well, but it doesn't actually address my point(and my link which further showed it to be so) that science is in fact fundamentally based on correlation implying causation. Science limits the degree of its skepticism, hence(amongst others things) its reliance upon correlation implying causation. Did you even read what I linked to?
Animus wrote:Which is why I call all of these claims bullshit, I'm skeptical of them, I don't believe them. Maybe you believe in them too easily. Your "Dramatic before and after photograph" is of a World Record Contestant named Claudio Paulo Pinto who uses his eye muscles for saccades to force his eyes out of their sockets. It has nothing to do with the crap you posted.
The post of mine that you're referring to was just a joke I made up in response to the first post in this thread. Look at that post again - I later edited it to add a disclaimer that it was a joke.

Animus
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Re: Finally, a break for REM sleep researchers

Post by Animus » Fri Jan 22, 2010 8:44 pm

Jason wrote:That's all very well, but it doesn't actually address my point(and my link which further showed it to be so) that science is in fact fundamentally based on correlation implying causation. Science limits the degree of its skepticism, hence(amongst others things) its reliance upon correlation implying causation. Did you even read what I linked to?
Think about the context I used it in. That is the context of "correlation does not imply causation". As I said, science is founded on similar statements to that, skepticism. IJC made an inaccurate causal statement where only correlation existed. The statement that eye movements during sleep stimulated memory retrieval. In other words:

If the eyes move (If P), during REM sleep (and X), then memory is retrieved (then Q).

There is no evidence of this being a true statement. The evidence suggests the following:

If the brain is in delta wave sleep (REM/1-4 hertz/stage N3/slow-wave) in coordination with the reticular formation (If P) then memory is consolidated (then Q) and eye movement is stimulated (and X).

Of course it is going to be subject to revision, its all provisional and personally that is pretty old news by now. Its a bit frustrating to have every statement made on this forum reduced to absurdity so that someone can feel like they are wise or got one over on another poster. Clearly the two logical statements are not equivalent and only one or neither of them could be true. The latter is more suitable to the evidence, the former faces the difficulty of the eyes not containing any formation that could possibly be responsible for the stimulation of memory. The eyes contain retinal ganglion cells and other milieu like the vitreous humor, cornea, conjunctivis, schlera, aqueous humor, etc... nothing resembling the kind of thing that orchestrates sleep. You have to look to the thalamus, to the reticular formation, and to the superior colliculus for eye saccades and the hippocampus for memory consolidation.

Furthermore, its not just correlation that is used in the determination of causation. Spatial and temporal proximity are also important for the determination of causality. That only seems to break down in quantum mechanics. If activity in a region spatially disconnected but correlative with activity in another region, its possibly they share an indirect causal influence on each other, but not likely a direct causal influence. Hey, maybe every time the Sun passes over Gemini my memory is consolidated, how about that?
Jason wrote:The post of mine that you're referring to was just a joke I made up in response to the first post in this thread. Look at that post again - I later edited it to add a disclaimer that it was a joke.
Yea, everything I say is a joke too. I keep that in mind so that I'll never have to be taken seriously.

IJesusChrist
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Re: Finally, a break for REM sleep researchers

Post by IJesusChrist » Sat Jan 23, 2010 6:36 am

Baby seal walked into a club.
To think or not to think.

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