Should men be allowed the same freedom as women re-abortion?

[Tomas]

.


-Count-
Anyhow, some men treat ALL women like prostitutes. Should they be excluded because they don't 'give a real name' to his sexual conquests?

-tomas-
If it happened to you, good luck, but you put it in ... and remained for the climax. Depending what country you are from, the rules are the rules. You play, you pay.

-Count-
Obviously not - no men should be expected to automatically pay for something that someone ELSE wants. If the woman wants a baby, let her have one, but let her know that she is alone (unless the man chooses to accept the obligation).

-tomas-
Get a lawyer. Otherwise, talk to your political representative and change the laws.

It takes two to tango. You want vaginal intercourse with a human woman, accept the consequences.

[Iolaus]

Jason said,

You wanna really fuck up foreplay: keep in mind that what you're about to do might end up costing you 18+ years of your life chained to a massive unwanted responsibility and a huge loss of freedom.

Oh, you poor, poor dear.

Kinda reminds me of when, in the early 80s, they had decided that AIDS was caused by a contageous virus. The article I remember said "Wow! For the first time in history, like, sex and death are connected? You could die from engaging in sex!"

(Paraphrased.)

Talk about a male worldview. The possibility of dying because of having sex has always been true for women.

The C word is derogatory, and that is why women don't like it. Pretty simple, and you sir, are a fake. Just another juvenile. You'll do fine here.

There ain't no equality. And that's because men and women aren't equal. If they were, they wouldn't be men and women.

[Cunt]

Get a lawyer. Otherwise, talk to your political representative and change the laws.

It takes two to tango. You want vaginal intercourse with a human woman, accept the consequences.

Do you consider the same rules when thinking of a womans choice to have an abortion or give the child up for adoption?

[Iolaus]

Oh Jason, my apologies, it was Mr. C whom I called a fake.

The C word is derogatory, and that is why women don't like it. Pretty simple, and you sir, are a fake. Just another juvenile. You'll do fine here.

was for him. The rest was to you.

[Cunt]

Oh Jason, my apologies, it was Mr. C whom I called a fake.

The C word is derogatory, and that is why women don't like it. Pretty simple, and you sir, are a fake. Just another juvenile. You'll do fine here.

was for him. The rest was to you.

I am not too sure what about my writing struck you as 'fake', but I am sure you will deliver a robust and sound evidence to us forthwith.
Or look like an uninformed heckler.

Either way, I noticed you avoided answering my question. Should I phrase it in simpler language for you?

[Tomas]

-tomas earlier-
Get a lawyer. Otherwise, talk to your political representative and change the laws.
It takes two to tango. You want vaginal intercourse with a human woman, accept the consequences.

-Count-
Do you consider the same rules when thinking of a womans choice to have an abortion or give the child up for adoption?

-tomas-
She is accepting the consequences when she allows a man to seed her at that given time in her cycle.

Of course the rule applies when she places a child for adoption .. you can always raise the child as yours if she is willing to give up parental rights/visitation.

The child will eventually become 18, then he/she can leave you and attempt a 'reconciliation' with the birth mother.

Ultimate Reality is in the eye of the beholder..

[Cunt]

-tomas earlier-
Get a lawyer. Otherwise, talk to your political representative and change the laws.
It takes two to tango. You want vaginal intercourse with a human woman, accept the consequences.

-Count-
Do you consider the same rules when thinking of a womans choice to have an abortion or give the child up for adoption?

-tomas-
She is accepting the consequences when she allows a man to seed her at that given time in her cycle.

Of course the rule applies when she places a child for adoption .. you can always raise the child as yours if she is willing to give up parental rights/visitation.

Does the woman have the right to abdicate her responsibilities by placing the child for adoption? (in my country the answer is yes). Does the man have that right?

[Iolaus]

Mr C-

I think you're a fake feminist, put it that way. And it is fake to pretend not to understand why women find an insulting word offensive. What question? This one?:

Does the woman have the right to abdicate her responsibilities by placing the child for adoption? (in my country the answer is yes). Does the man have that right?

The problem you're not undersanding, is that there are two genders, and they aren't the same. For a man to give up a child for adoption against a woman's whishes would mean ripping the infant out of her arms and giving it away. Hardly a positive thing. I do not think it is ideal that a woman who wants to keep her child can name the father in a paternity case and collect money. But if you want fair, there's no way life is fair. Getting pregnant unexpectedly is not fair. Not everyone can stomach an abortion, and I am not convinced it is safe. I have advised my daughters not to get one if they get pregnant, as there is some evidence that a first pregnancy aborted can increase risk of breast cancer. It will be very hard to confirm that, however, as many interested parties will suppress it, if true.

I also think you have a very immature attidude about male responsibility. You mention some predatory woman taking advantage of some poor horny sucker at a bar. That's what condoms are for, and anyone not in a long term relationship should use nothing else, to protect themselves from several things, regardless of their own gender.

I don't think very many women really want to give up a baby for adoption.

Likewise, it is not possible for a man to compell a woman to have an abortion. Where I feel sorrier for men is when the woman gets one, and he wants the child to live. That is hard.

[Cunt]

Mr C-

I think you're a fake feminist, put it that way. And it is fake to pretend not to understand why women find an insulting word offensive. What question?

I think your calling me 'fake' is an ad hominem attack designed to distract from my main point.
By the way, have you read the feminist book called 'Cunt'? Do you think the author was also 'fake'? I know some of why some women act offended by the word...it's the same reason a woman in a burka would act offended seeing a woman in a bikini.
I simply reject it. It's not that I don't understand.

This one?:

Does the woman have the right to abdicate her responsibilities by placing the child for adoption? (in my country the answer is yes). Does the man have that right?

The problem you're not undersanding, is that there are two genders, and they aren't the same. For a man to give up a child for adoption against a woman's whishes would mean ripping the infant out of her arms and giving it away.

Let me help you clarify the value of your appeal to emotion.
For a woman to give up a child for adoption against a man's wishes would mean ripping the infant out of her arms and giving it away.
Of course, if either parent gives the child away, the other has the option of adopting it, so the argument has little other than emotion at it's root.

Hardly a positive thing. I do not think it is ideal that a woman who wants to keep her child can name the father in a paternity case and collect money.

Why do you think it's fair for a woman to wriggle out from her responsibilities but not a man? I think it's because you don't think women are as strong as men, and I think that is an outdated and misogynistic stance.

Not everyone can stomach an abortion, and I am not convinced it is safe.

Adoption is pretty safe. Of course there is danger in everything.

I have advised my daughters not to get one if they get pregnant, as there is some evidence that a first pregnancy aborted can increase risk of breast cancer.

I have advised my daughters that whatever their decision, I will aid them in implementing it. Whether that means crossing a picket-line of assholes at an abortion clinic, or helping them raise a child.
I hope your daughters get support even if they disagree with you.

I also think you have a very immature attidude about male responsibility.

Is that because I think they should have no more responsibility than women?

You mention some predatory woman taking advantage of some poor horny sucker at a bar. That's what condoms are for, and anyone not in a long term relationship should use nothing else, to protect themselves from several things, regardless of their own gender.

So with condoms failing some of the time (even when used correctly), what do you suggest for the thousands of pregnancies every year that happen to responsible fuckers?

I don't think very many women really want to give up a baby for adoption.

Then if they don't want to raise a child alone, they should find a partner who wants to become a parent, or suck up one more of life's disappointments.
Life sucks sometimes.

Likewise, it is not possible for a man to compell a woman to have an abortion. Where I feel sorrier for men is when the woman gets one, and he wants the child to live. That is hard.

Once again, tough shit. If he didn't want his sperm to go to waste, he should have been more careful about whose body he shot it into.
Life sucks sometimes.

[David Quinn]

Mr C-

I think you're a fake feminist, put it that way. And it is fake to pretend not to understand why women find an insulting word offensive.

A person would have to pretty delusional to be offended by a mere word. Are we back in kindergarten?

And of course, for a spiritual person to be offended by anything means he still has a lot of work to do. It reveals that he is still the victim of bias and emotional attachment.

I remember an episode of Curb Your Enthusiasm where Larry David caused outrage by calling a man a "cunt" in mixed company for playing a cowardly hand in a poker game. Everyone was offended by his use of the word, which perplexed David greatly. He reflected that he calls people "pricks" all the time and nothing is ever said about it. Given the furore, he later considered that perhaps he should have called the guy a "pussy" instead.....

-

[Blair]

Women don't like the word cunt because it reminds them of the reeking, disease-ridden hole it actually is.

[Cunt]

Women don't like the word cunt because it reminds them of the reeking, disease-ridden hole it actually is.

It's no dirtier than your 'man-gina'.

[Tomas]

.


-Count-
Does the woman have the right to abdicate her responsibilities by placing the child for adoption? (in my country the answer is yes).

-tomas-
Of course, she does!


-Count-
Does the man have that right?

-tomas-
Of course, let's say you adopt a child and then later decide you'd rather not raise that child to adulthood. Do what is best for you first, the child will fend for themselves anyway when they reach adulthood. You dropped the kid off so don't worry about what you did. Move on..

Males do not get pregnant, but help build the nest with the female. If they are both fertile and straight-about-sex, kids will come their way. The girlfriend (of 40 plus years) and I have seven children. Six are out of the nest and we did what with the knowledge we had/have to get them on their way. We have an 11-year-old who showed up late in our nest. Suppose we could've dumped her off at the local orphanage, but then what would we do with our remaining time here on planet Earth??

[Jason]

You wanna really fuck up foreplay: keep in mind that what you're about to do might end up costing you 18+ years of your life chained to a massive unwanted responsibility and a huge loss of freedom.

Oh, you poor, poor dear.

Indeed: I don't like being imprisoned. I highly value avoiding massive undesirable responsibilities and loss of freedom for decades of my life. If you wanna pooh-pooh that go ahead, but all it does is make me think that you have very poor values and a lack of self-determination and drive.

Kinda reminds me of when, in the early 80s, they had decided that AIDS was caused by a contageous virus. The article I remember said "Wow! For the first time in history, like, sex and death are connected? You could die from engaging in sex!"

(Paraphrased.)

Talk about a male worldview. The possibility of dying because of having sex has always been true for women.

Actually STDs considered non-fatal by modern Western standards of medical care could be lethal in the past for men. Ever heard of syphilis?

But yes, sex has been a potential deathtrap for women for most of human existence too. Pregnancy has all the features of a disease. The anatomical differences also tend to make women more likely to contract infections from vaginal intercourse. From a biological point of view it would seem that women are more liable to dangers and suffering where sex and reproduction are involved. That majorly sucks, but why do you have to turn it into a male vs female thing? STDs and unwanted impregnation are still nasty things for men. Is it a competition to see who experiences the most suffering?

[Animus]

Tough question. One of the tougher social dilemmas.

Its true for Canada, two otherwise equal adults get partying and randy and sleep together. Next thing ya know the girl is prego, now the ball is entirely in her court, she decides to ditch the guy calling him a one-night-stand and perhaps a regrettable mistake. The guy has no option to be with her if she decides not to. Now she's got a gun to his head, financially speaking.

She can decide to pull the trigger. Its really reversed from what it was. It used to be women had to be really responsible with sex and I think thats where we got a lot of male/female stereotypes about sex. But these days its somewhat reversed, a woman has a few options, abortion, adoption, and child support if she decides to retain the child. Child Support here in Canada comes in the form of payments from the father (sometimes 50% or more of his income), Child Tax credits from the government (Usually a few hundred bucks a couple times a year) and various other cash grabs for mothers. If the child has difficulty in school a mother can capitalize on that and get another quarterly check.

I know a few women who have multiple streams of income from various men. They might have 4 kids and 16 streams of income. They don't work, their donors do and they are pretty well indebted for life.

Still, its tough I don't think a guy should be able to decide the fate of a woman either. He shouldn't be able to say "Well you have the abortion or your screwed" when he had as much to do with the pregnancy as her. Pull out! - Its an effective strategy, condoms usually work too.

[Cunt]

Still, its tough I don't think a guy should be able to decide the fate of a woman either. He shouldn't be able to say "Well you have the abortion or your screwed" when he had as much to do with the pregnancy as her.

He does not have as much to do with the pregnancy as her. He has a half share in initiating it, speaking generously. Any decision beyond that - including a decision to nurture the pregnancy to term (which is still not a decision to become a parent - there is still an adoption option) is entirely up to the woman.

Pull out! - Its an effective strategy, condoms usually work too.

How about instead we would focus on teaching the next generation of children where the true responsibilities are. That should take care of it.

[Animus]

I don't have any kids ; )

[Iolaus]

Mr C-

I am not too sure what about my writing struck you as 'fake', but I am sure you will deliver a robust and sound evidence to us forthwith.

You call yourself a feminist but you are not pro-woman, you are anti-woman.

I think your calling me 'fake' is an ad hominem attack designed to distract from my main point.

It is ad hominem, but it doesn't distract from the point at all.

Either way, I noticed you avoided answering my question.

I'm not sure what the question actually is, but I think it is this:

Does the woman have the right to abdicate her responsibilities by placing the child for adoption? (in my country the answer is yes). Does the man have that right?

But your question doesn't compute. You are trying to compare two genders that are not in the same experience, and you are using adoption as a kind of red herring, when in fact adoption is an extreme measure that almost no women really wants to do. If the woman places her child for adoption, it's a given the man doesn't want it, and she can't handle it.

So sometimes an unwanted pregnancy is solved with adoption, in which the child gets two solvent and stable parents (hopefully), but that is not to say that if the woman does not want to give up her child for adoption, that a man can say, well, I don't want anything to do with it, and I would prefer her to give it up for adoption, and therefore I should not support my child.

I personally could never give up a child for adoption. My conscience wouldn't allow it. Once, when I was a broke single parent, I saw an add for donating eggs, for $5000, which I consider mine superior by the way, and after a moments reflection I realized I could never abandon a child of mine in the world.

By the way, have you read the feminist book called 'Cunt'? Do you think the author was also 'fake'? I

Haven't read it, looked it up on Amazon, and it appears she's trying to rehabilitate the word, but why? Language moves on.

.it's the same reason a woman in a burka would act offended seeing a woman in a bikini.

Bullshit. They're completely different.

Why do you think it's fair for a woman to wriggle out from her responsibilities but not a man?

You see, a baby comes out of the body of the woman and right onto her stomach. She takes care of it, far more than a man paying child support. If she wriggles out of her responsibilities by arranging an adoption, the child is put into a home with two solvent parents who desire expressly to raise it.
A man who abandons his child in the world is...abandoning his child. There IS NO comparison with adoption. That's your error right there.

I think it's because you don't think women are as strong as men, and I think that is an outdated and misogynistic stance.

Of course women aren't as strong as men! What a moronic statement. Are you blind? I'll tell you what is misogynist and cruel - to insist that women are as strong as men.

I hope your daughters get support even if they disagree with you.

There are suppressive ideologues who call themselves feminist, who would like to censor information that actual young women might benefit from. If getting a first pregnancy aborted increases the risk of breast cancer, they might like to take that into consideration.

I also think you have a very immature attidude about male responsibility.

Is that because I think they should have no more responsibility than women?

No it's because you think they should have no responsibility.

You are saying that because a woman theoretically COULD give up a baby for adoption, she therefore must do so.

So with condoms failing some of the time (even when used correctly), what do you suggest for the thousands of pregnancies every year that happen to responsible fuckers?

Well, you know what they say: If you can't do the time, don't do the crime.

Seriously, I've used condoms more than 25 years, and never had one fail. But I know they sometimes fail. But lets remember, my advice about using condoms was in response to your comment about predatory women taking advantage of poor horny suckers in bars. That's some serious whining.

[Iolaus]

David,

A person would have to pretty delusional to be offended by a mere word. Are we back in kindergarten?

Well, I didn't say I was offended; I was explaining why women find the word offensive. Words have meaning. It's called language, communication.

Prince tells it like it is:

Women don't like the word cunt because it reminds them of the reeking, disease-ridden hole it actually is.

But Prince, it is also the portal through which we all enter this world from the mysterious Other. Don't be so insulting toward the hole from which you yourself crawled out.
How is your mom, by the way?

Jason,

Indeed: I don't like being imprisoned. I highly value avoiding massive undesirable responsibilities and loss of freedom for decades of my life. If you wanna pooh-pooh that go ahead, but all it does is make me think that you have very poor values and a lack of self-determination and drive.

I agree it should send chills up your spine. But I don't know what that has to do with my self-determination or drive.

That majorly sucks, but why do you have to turn it into a male vs female thing? STDs and unwanted impregnation are still nasty things for men. Is it a competition to see who experiences the most suffering?

No, and there are no good answers, but I don't know that it should be the way it once was.

[Elizabeth Isabelle]

I've often wondered if it would be possible to get some sort of legally recognized agreement with a woman, stating that she will get an abortion if pregnancy happens to occur, and failing abortion that all financial(and/or other) responsibility for the child will be waived. Sort of like a prenuptial, perhaps a "presexual." If it were possible, it might even be so generally applicable that just a standard agreement document created by a qualified legal professional could be uploaded to the web and printed out and used by anyone(within a particular jurisdiction.)

I think this sort of thing may be possible in some US states. Outside that I really haven't a clue. However, I came across this discussion from a few years back. For some reason it hit me as remarkable satire, even though it appears to be serious: link

I'm not so sure that it's possible in the States. I had a business partner who had signed a divorce agreement which was also signed off by a judge that he should have no contact with his son, and in exchange, he would not have to pay child support. 17 years later, the mother filed a retroactive suit (from a different state) for child support payments and won. He could not get retroactive time with his son as he was growing up, but I ended up having to pay his child support anyway. Lets not get into how I had to pay child support for a kid that isn't even mine, and was conceived 18 years before I met the father.

The guy shouldn't get off completely free, but neither should he be forced into 18 years of something that he didn't want. Since it's her body that would have to go through the abortion, he should be responsible for some reasonable one-time compensation like maybe the cost of an abortion, even if she decides to keep the fetus.

[Aristogenics]

There is nothing necessarily wrong with unequal relationships. The relationship between parent and child is inherently unequal. The child makes himself a voluntary slave of the adult. It is true, if his parents abuse him, he may try to escape their rule: but he then tries to find another adult to be his master. Humans -- especially women, children, and the less vigorous nations of humanity -- like to be ruled by a good master that treats them well. There is a dominant and submissive party in virtually all relationships.

There has never been an era "before patriarchy", except in Marxist mythology. Patriarchy of one form of another is inherent in human nature and has existed since pre-sapien antiquity.

[Cunt]

There is nothing necessarily wrong with unequal relationships. The relationship between parent and child is inherently unequal. The child makes himself a voluntary slave of the adult. It is true, if his parents abuse him, he may try to escape their rule: but he then tries to find another adult to be his master. Humans -- especially women, children, and the less vigorous nations of humanity -- like to be ruled by a good master that treats them well. There is a dominant and submissive party in virtually all relationships.

There has never been an era "before patriarchy", except in Marxist mythology. Patriarchy of one form of another is inherent in human nature and has existed since pre-sapien antiquity.

Just what has that got to do with the price of wheat in Canada?