Police State

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DHodges
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Re: Police State

Post by DHodges »

Elizabeth Isabelle wrote:DHodges, these videos make your point moot, as the police are not part of the government. Supposedly, they are private citizens. Therefore, getting rid of the government would not change occurrences like these.
I had not seen those videos, thanks.

What do you mean that the police are not part of the government? Aren't they supposed to be part of the executive branch, enforcing the laws and directives of the legislature? If they are acting as thugs, doesn't that mean that someone higher up is encouraging, or at least allowing, that to happen?

It seems to me that there is a general culture that "security" is more important than civil rights (as evidenced by things like the Patriot Act) which tends to leave police action unquestioned and unchecked.
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Re: Police State

Post by Elizabeth Isabelle »

Strangely, I can not find online what I learned in high school (during the Reagan administration). The closest indicator that I can find is this which indicates that the individual states (and not the federal government) are in charge of the police - but I don't see anything spelled out as clearly as what I know that I learned. That fact suddenly makes me realize that if all information is transferred to only being available online, and the government is in control of the internet, all they have to do to change a law is purge history of the old law off the internet...

You are right that the USA PATRIOT Act changed many laws, taking away many civil rights. It was passed not only in the panic after 9/11, but was also voted on so soon after being released that most of those voting on it didn't even read it before voting, and it was not debated on the floor. I'm not so sure that this is a result of general cultural attitudes as it is just a result of power-hungry fear-mongers manipulating the sheeple (granted, that is a fine line to differentiate). Yet, since the Bush administration claims that US military can police American citizens, the Bush administration has been in office for 8 years, thus highly influencing the minds of the young who did not know any different, therefore capturing the voice of the more vocal. Most adults are too busy working and doing other mundane things to pay too much attention, and then are stressed enough by the end of their duties to just want to stick their heads in something mindless rather than deal with even more stress from political reality - so not much is heard from people who remember differently.

(slightly off-topic, but related to the reliability of information out there - Yahoo Answers has to be one of the more nauseating developments on the web. Someone asks a question of whoever happens to read it, gets a number of replies, picks the answer they like best - and then when someone Googles the same question, that pops up. That isn't even bandwagon fallacy. This probably requires a new fallacy name - like succumbing to the whim of a random individual...)

Anyway, Amendment IV of the Constitution clearly protects us from unreasonable searches and seizures. but the DEA has been exempt from that for quite some time. Thanks to the USA PATRIOT Act, now the federal government is also exempt from Amendment IV of the Constitution. Merely protesting the government can now get you and your stuff taken away (yet I continue to talk about this stuff, and wonder why the IRS continues to insist that I owe over 400% of my income for 2005, not including penalties or interest).

D, maybe I missed your point. What is the difference between someone higher up encouraging or at least allowing this stuff to happen, and local agencies going bad all by themselves and not having anyone higher up to answer to?
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DHodges
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Re: Police State

Post by DHodges »

Elizabeth Isabelle wrote:D, maybe I missed your point. What is the difference between someone higher up encouraging or at least allowing this stuff to happen, and local agencies going bad all by themselves and not having anyone higher up to answer to?
I think I missed that you were saying the police are not part of the Federal government. They are under control of local and state governments.

I guess the distinction is that there will always be individual bad cops - either corrupt or incompetent. That's different from a system that is itself corrupt and encourages corruption.

If it was only individual local agencies or cops that were bad, then the system should theoretically have a method of internal review that would correct and minimize such things. When it is systematic, then outside action is called for to correct it.

edit:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IKy-WSZMklc
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Shoving 71-year olds

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Officer will not face charges in shoving of 71-year-old Wal-Mart greeter

-snip-

He said he reached to try to stop Detective Freeman and he was pushed against a soft drink machine and to the floor. He said the officer then hovered over him as he lay on the floor.

-Click URL for complete article-

http://www.chattanoogan.com/articles/article_141946.asp
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Police Sate America

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Police State America

The latest links are always at bottom of page

http://www.fullmoon.nu/book/side_issues ... merica.htm
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Re: Police State

Post by Elizabeth Isabelle »

January 2009, Police fatally shoot handcuffed, unarmed man in the back while holding him down. Maybe the cop thought he was reaching for his taser?
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Re: Police State

Post by Tomas »

Elizabeth Isabelle wrote:January 2009, Police fatally shoot handcuffed, unarmed man in the back while holding him down. Maybe the cop thought he was reaching for his taser?
UPDATE:

Charged with murder
"At this point, what I feel the evidence indicates is an unlawful killing done by an unintentional act," Alameda County Dist. Atty. Tom Orloff said Wednesday (see mugshot of ex-cop)

http://www.eurweb.com/story/eur49887.cfm
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Democrats sneak Net neutrality rules into 'stimulus' bill

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Democrats sneak Net neutrality rules into 'stimulus' bill

(It's rather like the state of Nebraska demanding that a broadband privider filter out porn nationwide in exchange for a lucrative government contract.)

http://news.cnet.com/8301-13578_3-10144035-38.html
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'Atlas Shrugged': From Fiction to Fact in 52 Years

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'Atlas Shrugged': From Fiction to Fact in 52 Years

For the uninitiated, the moral of the story is simply this:

see image

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB123146363567166677.html
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Orwell's 2009: Big Brother Is Watching

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Orwell 2009: Big Brother Is Watching

by James Quinn
January 16, 2009

-snip-

The U.S. government has used chaos, fear, and exaggeration to expand their control. The method used to gain control is simple. Government creates a problem, fans the flames to make the problem appear to be extremely dangerous, and then provide a solution that only government can implement. (see graphics)

http://www.financialsense.com/editorial ... /0116.html
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Carl G
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Re: Police State

Post by Carl G »

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Police State America - A Look Back and Ahead

by Stephen Lendman
December 17, 2007

-snip-

It's not with jackboots in the streets but by a steady "process of erosion" with the public largely unaware and distracted by media mind manipulators.

Click on the URL for full story

http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php? ... a&aid=7622

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Elizabeth Isabelle
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Re: Police State

Post by Elizabeth Isabelle »

Carl's article lists Bush's approval rating for 2007 as 27%, which was barely higher than Nixon's approval rating at the height of Watergate (25%). Bush's exit approval rating is 22% which is the lowest in history.
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The Authoritarians: Imagine no government

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The Authoritarians: Imagine no government

pseudo random ravings of a 21st century cyber philosopher


-snip-

Such is the extent to which most people have been conditioned, that I am confident that less than 1% of even those
most likely to read these words will dare to believe that I'm making a serious proposition.

Asking people to imagine how the world could possibly work without "the authorities"...

http://stottle.blogspot.com/2009/01/authoritarians.html
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Carl G
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Re: Police State

Post by Carl G »

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Alex Jones Police State 2000 Martial Law Posse Comitatus

-snip-

Witness US troops training with foreign troops and learning how to control and contain civilian populations in Operation Urban Warrior. You will see Special Forces, helicopter attacks on South Texas cities, concentration or "Freedom" camps, broad unconstitutional police actions, gun seizure training, snitch squads of children recruited to turn in family and neighbors, and more. This was filmed in 1999/2000 and foreshadows the rise of the police state and martial law that is creeping forward. Recall that even today, troops and mercenaries seized and confiscated honest law abiding citizens weapons down in New Orleans after the Hurricane Katrina. Foreign troops were called in to help rescue, troops from Denmark, and Mexico. The truth is stranger than fiction. Exclusive photos from Urban Warrior drills:

Click on URL to watch complete video

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid ... 6255792191

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Guards plead not guily in 'nightmare' Rikers beatings

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Guards plead not guilty in 'nightmare' Rikers beatings

Three correction officers created a sadistic secret society on a Rikers Island cellblock, ordering prisoners to extort and beat other prisoners, prosecutors charged Thursday (see mugshots)

http://www.nydailynews.com/ny_local/200 ... rik-1.html
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Bush 'Vote Rigger' Dies In Crash

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Bush 'Vote Rigger' Dies In Crash

VR reported that Connell was a very experienced pilot who had to abandon at least two flights in the past two months because of suspicious problems with his plane.

http://www.americanfreepress.net/html/v ... r_162.html
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Virginia: State Police Captain Arrest (see mugshot)

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State Police Captain Arrest

Felony charge of forcible sodomy (see mugshot)

The following is a press release from Virginia State Police:

http://www.wtvr.com/Global/story.asp?S=9734556
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Re: Police State

Post by Carl G »

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SWAT raid on food co-op called 'entrapment'

-snip-

Lawyer says family badgered by agent to 'sell' eggs
(see photo of Jacqueline and John Stower)

-Click URL for complete article-

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/index.php? ... geId=84594
.

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Re: Police State

Post by Elizabeth Isabelle »

Neighbors snitch to the government when man does not shovel snow. City government charges him $30 but at least blows the snow off his sidewalk for him. Man doesn't give a rat's ass.
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Re: Police State

Post by Ignius »

Question:

If I haven't done anything wrong and a police officer stops me for looking suspicious (and nothing more), then can I ignore him and keep walking? Or would that be reasonable grounds for an arrest?

Basically, I'm wondering how much power the police really have... Obviously, I would stop and have a chat, but I want to know whether or not I have the right to keep walking without breaking any laws.

Btw, I got a 125$ ticket for drinking in public! *Ooops*
Last edited by Ignius on Mon Feb 02, 2009 7:30 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Police State

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Elizabeth Isabelle wrote:Neighbors snitch to the government when man does not shovel snow. City government charges him $30 but at least blows the snow off his sidewalk for him. Man doesn't give a rat's ass.
At least when the city contracts with the populace the sidewalk is done to the state's satisfaction. Everybody is made happy.

The mail carrier ain't slip-sliding away. The newspaper carrier has a fine walkby with no slips.
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Re: Police State

Post by Ignius »

Life is like that - we can correct the past!
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Party till ya puke

Post by Tomas »

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-Iggy-
Btw, I got a 125$ ticket for drinking in public! *Ooops*

-tomas-

I was ticketed many years ago for having an open beer (at about 3AM) on a public sidewalk.

The fine was $50. I took it to court and the municipal judge reduced it to $25.

The other two folks waived court and paid the $50.
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Elizabeth Isabelle
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Re: Police State

Post by Elizabeth Isabelle »

Ignius wrote:Question:

If I haven't done anything wrong and a police officer stops me for looking suspicious (and nothing more), then can I ignore him and keep walking? Or would that be reasonable grounds for an arrest?

Basically, I'm wondering how much power the police really have... Obviously, I would stop and have a chat, but I want to know whether or not I have the right to keep walking without breaking any laws.
Stopping and having a chat is a bad idea. If a cop stops you for looking suspicious, he's out to find something on you even if he has to play word games to get you to say something that at least might be interpreted as a confession to doing something wrong.

The link will only work in the US, but in the last segment, here's an example of something similar to what you are describing, except that the extent of "looking suspicious" wasn't even established. All that was established was that these two young guys were crossing the street on foot.

There's an especially good response in the comments below, in the thread entitled "Little excessive?"
The police need probable cause to detain a citizen. In this case the two youths were so stupid and so ignorant about their rights that they were never actually detained. Although it seemed clear to me the cops were taking advantage of the youths ignorance, and sought to create a climate where the two kids felt compelled to consent. The facts remains the two kids did consent to everything of their own volition. When the cop asked can I talk to you, either youth was within his rights to say no and keep walking. Although I would suggest that if a cop ever asks you this instead of just walking away, you ask on what grounds you are being detained. In this case the cops wouldn't have had an answer because they had no grounds. They needed the kids voluntary consent to interrogate them.
Even when the cops have probable cause you still have had the right to refuse to answer any questions. The thing about the law is that everybody tries to break the spirit of it without breaking the letter. That's what the cops appear to be doing here. Only it's next to impossible to prove. The cops appear to me to try an intimidate the kids by the their posture and body language into believing they had to comply. However a judge very possibly would have disagreed, and again the facts remain that the two youths surrendered their rights voluntarily. If cop has no grounds to detain you, then don't submit to an interrogation.
Also helpful, here is a YouTube video BUSTED: The Citizen's Guide to Surviving Police Encounters - absolutely invaluable.
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Re: Police State

Post by Ignius »

Ah-well, it doesn't really matter, because cops can lie and say that there was probable cause, even if, there was none.

Btw, I don't think that the question was answered even though I didn't read your entire response.
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