Technical Sargeant Daybrown wrote:
"The global power elite got rid of Communism, and now Islam and Christianity are next. And both know it while they fight between each other for the shrinking asset base of their lower class followers. I dunno, but this struggle, as Alex and Dan seem to realize, has not been very well thot out on the part of any of the contenders. Each, the power elites and the religions, suffer from their own forms of group think."
I was thinking about the Catholic idea of 'the mystical body of Christ', and the idea/hope/prayer 'thy kingdom come, thy will be done', and I was thinking about this in the context of the Catholic Workers and the activism of Peter Maurin who is cited often in the book The Spirit of the Sixties (you can use this page to look inside and the parts cited are quite interesting), a pretty monumental book published by Routledge. These people really were authentic to their vision of things, and really took their religion seriously! I have been reading Francois Mauriac, a French Catholic writer who deals on moral issues extremely eloquently, and it made me think of the idea that if we consider that all life is sacred, and that we live in God's body, and that we are part of a 'brotherhood of man', and we are 'one body', well, it is not such a bad philosophy. I have always admired certain aspects of Catholic practice, and though there may have been a number of different currents that produced sixties radicalism, it seems plausable that Peter Maurin and Dorthy Day may have been some of the key ideological players that got a pretty significant ball rolling.
And yet, it seems that a great deal of their vision of things was...just too simplistic, too goody-goody. There is just too much at stake that some over-idealistic catholics suppose they are going to overturn the whole structure of the world and invent something radically new. And yet too, this idealism, this deep romanticism, completely pulled at the heart-strings of an entire generation. What were people really responding to? It seems that if you can answer that question, you will have the keys to the transformation of the world in your hands.
But perhaps there is a far more inclusive way to think about a 'mystical body' and also about the politics and the organization of this mysterious body of which we are all a part. Half joking in the 3 posts I wrote above, but actually rather serious, what if it turns out to be 'true' that the pax-Americana that enters its second century might be the best alternative? Surely the idea is seductive to neo-conservatism, and they sometimes border into fascisitc conceptions and statements, but still the question is valid. And you say that Christianity is destined for the chopping block too, and in this I really beg to differ. I still think that the Judeo-Christian opus-possibility-mystical proposition is far more potent than anything Islam offers, and that the ideas contained in the conceptions of 'thy Kingdom come, thy will be done' and that of a mystical body of divinity in which we live and breathe, is strangely potent. And the really strange part is that a world system IS taking shape, and it may be that only though the existence of a world system, where power is weilded and grand decisions are planned out and made by entities with 'ownership interest', that this culture and civilization on the planet may have a chance to survive, and heaven only knows where things are tending, and who really knows why?
You and so many others are essentially pessimists, and your imaginations move toward dark scenarios, collapse, failure, draconian systems of control (and this is likely a part of things), but optimism is also just a valid a 'mood' if one were really to be honest. If one more or less central governing structure can arise, there is a possibility that certain tough decisions can be taken that might allow this protoplasm of humanity to get on some sort of even keep, and develop a sustaining system. What if it actually turned out that the US as the first and last truly global empire actually has this role to carry out? I personally think that the kind of men who head up the so-called 'power-elites' are not necessarily, by definition, madmen.
And also, though every group must 'think', and there is always some guiding ideology, just because group-think is going on and may exhibit failures, does not mean that it is all the time wrong. The conceptual order that drives men like Brzezinski is not unsound, and it is not necessarily 'unchristian'.
911
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Alex Jacob
- Posts: 1671
- Joined: Mon Jun 27, 2011 2:10 am
- Location: Meta-Rabbit Hole
Re: 911
Ni ange, ni bête
Re: 911
Nice rap, well put. But the thing is Alex that If you will only begin to cooperate... can be best learned by looking at the archaeological record of those who been there and done that. And when you do, you see that they didnt worship god, but goddess, ie, the Great Earth Mother.
The reasons are psychological; Alpha males being what they are, they struggle for dominance; that interferes with their ability to cooperate. If their daughters, the Alpha females are in charge, the struggle for dominance is muted by the female instinct to seek consensus.
Ever since the invention of the bronze axe in Europe 7000 years ago, a young woman fed up with the local management and the lazy stupid people the village witch was breeding, could select a young man of self control, intelligence, and talent, and flee into the vast forest to build a log cabin and raise a family. You could not do that anywhere else on the planet. By the time they got the bronze axe, there were already too many people living in the area, too many bandits & warriors.
The competent descendants of those yeoman farmers built what passes for Western Civilization. They innately have the values for hard work and the attention span to organize. When you are Alpha, that's no advantage on the farm; there's nobody else there to dominate to make them work harder except your own kids. We all remembered where the woodshed is, so we paid attention.
But you cant tell that to those who did not descend from yeoman farmers. They just dont get it. They either think in terms of how to dominate everyone else, or in terms of how to manipulate the powers that be for their benefit.
The reasons are psychological; Alpha males being what they are, they struggle for dominance; that interferes with their ability to cooperate. If their daughters, the Alpha females are in charge, the struggle for dominance is muted by the female instinct to seek consensus.
Ever since the invention of the bronze axe in Europe 7000 years ago, a young woman fed up with the local management and the lazy stupid people the village witch was breeding, could select a young man of self control, intelligence, and talent, and flee into the vast forest to build a log cabin and raise a family. You could not do that anywhere else on the planet. By the time they got the bronze axe, there were already too many people living in the area, too many bandits & warriors.
The competent descendants of those yeoman farmers built what passes for Western Civilization. They innately have the values for hard work and the attention span to organize. When you are Alpha, that's no advantage on the farm; there's nobody else there to dominate to make them work harder except your own kids. We all remembered where the woodshed is, so we paid attention.
But you cant tell that to those who did not descend from yeoman farmers. They just dont get it. They either think in terms of how to dominate everyone else, or in terms of how to manipulate the powers that be for their benefit.
Goddess made sex for company.
Re: 911
As for Christian, Joseph Campbell, in for instance "Primitive Mythology", Occidental Mythology", & Oriental Mythology" shows how the accepted concept of the divine reflects the cultural power structure. Nomads think of sky gods, farmers think of Earth Mothers. Jehovah with his "heavenly host" is a copy of the Hebrew Horde that swept out of the desert, which it did again with Mohammet, in both cases having a dynamic alpha male leader.
But Zeus, in contrast, representing the Greek City state system, was more like a town mayor, with other gods that had other perogatives that he had to contend with. He mite be the decider, but he couldnt undo what another god had already done.
But now, women are taking over the corporate structure. Young women 21-30yr, already make more money than young men, and as they move up the ladder they innately seek more consensus, and the result has been a flattening of the power structure with a focus on networks rather than the alpha male top town trip of Jesus and the apostles, the pope and your local preachers.
That system just does not resonate with women, which is why so many now are studying "wicca", and why the girls just went nuts when "Harry Potter" came out. Harry is not a knight in shining armor. And while the corporate alpha male CEO never cared about the home lives of his workers, the alpha female has stripped out layers of management to make it easier for Her to get to know Her staff, and She has broadened the corporate support from healthcare plans to include family leave and on site childcare services.
But watch the scale of economic efficiency rise as they integrate the production operations with the living operations. They not only dont drive to work, they live above the store. They only have 4 walls to heat for the whole operation, rather than 4 walls for the nuclear family house of each workers. They move 'homeschooling' up a level in efficiency, but not to the point where there are so many kids that they are constantly trading new mutant pathogens. The staff quits having so much downtime from colds and flu, both in themselves and in their kids. And the whole operation runs like village in a trading network.
We have been here before, in SE Europe, 7000 years ago, with a vast trade network from the Salt mines at Hallstaat and Salzburg all the way down the Danube to the Black Sea fisheries. Hundreds of village tels are still there. dozens of larger trade towns of 10,000-20,000, but... no capital city. No steep alpha male power structure. Each village in capitalist economic competition with all the others, but within each village, the witches doing what we now call 'case management'.
And they all worshiped Gaia. And I see it happening again. The trading towns of 10,000 strung out along I-40 from Ft Smith to Conway have had dramatic transnational corporate investment. There are enuf workers between the town and the hobby farm fringe to staff facilities from 50 to 350 people. All the malls, movies, restaurants, medical facilities, etc the staff needs, but no urban slums and no urban traffic jams. And who do I see moving up here to take advantage of this? Dykes.
But Zeus, in contrast, representing the Greek City state system, was more like a town mayor, with other gods that had other perogatives that he had to contend with. He mite be the decider, but he couldnt undo what another god had already done.
But now, women are taking over the corporate structure. Young women 21-30yr, already make more money than young men, and as they move up the ladder they innately seek more consensus, and the result has been a flattening of the power structure with a focus on networks rather than the alpha male top town trip of Jesus and the apostles, the pope and your local preachers.
That system just does not resonate with women, which is why so many now are studying "wicca", and why the girls just went nuts when "Harry Potter" came out. Harry is not a knight in shining armor. And while the corporate alpha male CEO never cared about the home lives of his workers, the alpha female has stripped out layers of management to make it easier for Her to get to know Her staff, and She has broadened the corporate support from healthcare plans to include family leave and on site childcare services.
But watch the scale of economic efficiency rise as they integrate the production operations with the living operations. They not only dont drive to work, they live above the store. They only have 4 walls to heat for the whole operation, rather than 4 walls for the nuclear family house of each workers. They move 'homeschooling' up a level in efficiency, but not to the point where there are so many kids that they are constantly trading new mutant pathogens. The staff quits having so much downtime from colds and flu, both in themselves and in their kids. And the whole operation runs like village in a trading network.
We have been here before, in SE Europe, 7000 years ago, with a vast trade network from the Salt mines at Hallstaat and Salzburg all the way down the Danube to the Black Sea fisheries. Hundreds of village tels are still there. dozens of larger trade towns of 10,000-20,000, but... no capital city. No steep alpha male power structure. Each village in capitalist economic competition with all the others, but within each village, the witches doing what we now call 'case management'.
And they all worshiped Gaia. And I see it happening again. The trading towns of 10,000 strung out along I-40 from Ft Smith to Conway have had dramatic transnational corporate investment. There are enuf workers between the town and the hobby farm fringe to staff facilities from 50 to 350 people. All the malls, movies, restaurants, medical facilities, etc the staff needs, but no urban slums and no urban traffic jams. And who do I see moving up here to take advantage of this? Dykes.
Goddess made sex for company.
Re: 911
What's it all about, Alphie?
Yep, just about every thread, no matter what the subject, turns into a blog about the good old ancient days, and how they are returning now in Northwest Arkansas.
God bless you, daybrown, you're a monumental piece of work. And now you've got Alex Jacob matching you post for ponderous post. Let the battle of the blogger behemoths begin.
Yep, just about every thread, no matter what the subject, turns into a blog about the good old ancient days, and how they are returning now in Northwest Arkansas.
God bless you, daybrown, you're a monumental piece of work. And now you've got Alex Jacob matching you post for ponderous post. Let the battle of the blogger behemoths begin.
Good Citizen Carl
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Alex Jacob
- Posts: 1671
- Joined: Mon Jun 27, 2011 2:10 am
- Location: Meta-Rabbit Hole
Re: 911
You are a cruel mistress, Carl G...
By way of explanation, I write to please myself, and my posts are rarely short, and I guess they are sort of blog-like, but what of it? I write usually in relation to what I am reading and for my own purposes. If you don't like it, find your own damn forum (joke). I am 'ashamed' to admit that I don't really care if anyone reads what I write or not. Additionally, I am sort of 'trapped' on this forum, which is not very useful to me, because I don't have very good luck at locating interesting forums where a whole gamut of ideas can be discussed. This forum has a certain potential in that regard but always seems to remain slightly dysfunctional and lop-sided...
What's your excuse staffsargeant daybrown?
By way of explanation, I write to please myself, and my posts are rarely short, and I guess they are sort of blog-like, but what of it? I write usually in relation to what I am reading and for my own purposes. If you don't like it, find your own damn forum (joke). I am 'ashamed' to admit that I don't really care if anyone reads what I write or not. Additionally, I am sort of 'trapped' on this forum, which is not very useful to me, because I don't have very good luck at locating interesting forums where a whole gamut of ideas can be discussed. This forum has a certain potential in that regard but always seems to remain slightly dysfunctional and lop-sided...
What's your excuse staffsargeant daybrown?
Ni ange, ni bête
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Alex Jacob
- Posts: 1671
- Joined: Mon Jun 27, 2011 2:10 am
- Location: Meta-Rabbit Hole
Re: 911
Just for the record---or just for the blog (juaaar juaaar juaaar)---I think that this Christianity can function both agressively masculinely, as well as very femininely. For example, those Catholic Workers of the middle fifties, they seemed to embody a very feminine sisters-of-mercy sort of Franciscan view of things, whereas (and I think you are right about this) certain forms of evangelical Christianity are more masculine, more aggressive, more capable of energetic focus.
I know it is irrelevant to everyone in this forum-universe (and certainly to Carl G...) (*snif*) but I am interested in religion as a unifying force in culture, and I think about it alot seeing as though I live in Colombia, a Catholic country over-all. I always find it interesting that this Catholic ritualism worships, essentially, symbolic representations of the sun and moon, the risen Christ and the everywhere-penetrating mystical femininity of Madre Maria, the shimmering moon. The fact is, this 'tantra' of Madre Maria is exceptionally feminine, and so in fact is a Mother Goddess religion within an essentially masculine, solar mythos. (This is beginning to get characteristically long and blog-like, so excuse me Carl G, but you see I am out of control...)
And of course no one around here gives a flying, holy fuck...but the thing about this passivist Christianity (that of the Days and Maurins and Berrigans of the early 60s movement, which is extremely relevant, I think, to any speculative conversation about what is happening in our world, and where things are heading, and why, and in what way it could be modified) is that...it simply could never actually articulate a way that real power could be handled. It can only recommend that you revert to possessing nothing, that you divest, downsize, give up ownership interest, and that all of this that comprises 'power-systems' is the evil itself. And for this and other reasons the whole program they recommend is deeply flawed and will always fail.
Again, no one here has any reason to care, but I happen to live in a place, and have to deal with people who are very much under the influence of this flawed aspect of Christian resentment of wealth. A functional and even vital feminine Catholicism seems to me very neceesary, and it is the ideal of a feminine, caring social energy, but along with this there has to be a powerful, armed, aggressive, masculine potency that defines order, insists on order, plans the order of things, and will destroy anything that gets in the way its plan. And that is why I am interested in examining the present direction of the US establishment, what they are planning and what the ideology is that informs it. A whole segment of snivelling, impotent, hysterical, paranoid crybabies gets up in arms everytime that daddy-power makes a decision and acts in the world. All they can do is scream 'No!'...'Stop!' They simply will not cooperate with power, and so there is a division, a constant division between these two poles of activity, the aggressive and the nurturing.
...I feel almost apologetic that I am interested in the conflict of values that arises from this.
;-)
I know it is irrelevant to everyone in this forum-universe (and certainly to Carl G...) (*snif*) but I am interested in religion as a unifying force in culture, and I think about it alot seeing as though I live in Colombia, a Catholic country over-all. I always find it interesting that this Catholic ritualism worships, essentially, symbolic representations of the sun and moon, the risen Christ and the everywhere-penetrating mystical femininity of Madre Maria, the shimmering moon. The fact is, this 'tantra' of Madre Maria is exceptionally feminine, and so in fact is a Mother Goddess religion within an essentially masculine, solar mythos. (This is beginning to get characteristically long and blog-like, so excuse me Carl G, but you see I am out of control...)
And of course no one around here gives a flying, holy fuck...but the thing about this passivist Christianity (that of the Days and Maurins and Berrigans of the early 60s movement, which is extremely relevant, I think, to any speculative conversation about what is happening in our world, and where things are heading, and why, and in what way it could be modified) is that...it simply could never actually articulate a way that real power could be handled. It can only recommend that you revert to possessing nothing, that you divest, downsize, give up ownership interest, and that all of this that comprises 'power-systems' is the evil itself. And for this and other reasons the whole program they recommend is deeply flawed and will always fail.
Again, no one here has any reason to care, but I happen to live in a place, and have to deal with people who are very much under the influence of this flawed aspect of Christian resentment of wealth. A functional and even vital feminine Catholicism seems to me very neceesary, and it is the ideal of a feminine, caring social energy, but along with this there has to be a powerful, armed, aggressive, masculine potency that defines order, insists on order, plans the order of things, and will destroy anything that gets in the way its plan. And that is why I am interested in examining the present direction of the US establishment, what they are planning and what the ideology is that informs it. A whole segment of snivelling, impotent, hysterical, paranoid crybabies gets up in arms everytime that daddy-power makes a decision and acts in the world. All they can do is scream 'No!'...'Stop!' They simply will not cooperate with power, and so there is a division, a constant division between these two poles of activity, the aggressive and the nurturing.
...I feel almost apologetic that I am interested in the conflict of values that arises from this.
;-)
Ni ange, ni bête
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Cybersmiles
- Posts: 15
- Joined: Mon Nov 05, 2007 9:55 am
- Location: USA
Re: 911
"The Global Power Elite"???????
Is that a new, more cowardly term for "The Joos"???????
Listen......I'm a New Yorker and I resent you sitting in an armchair and yapping away about power elites and other psychotic conspiracy theories, when more than 3000 Americans died, overhere. Stop it.
Is that a new, more cowardly term for "The Joos"???????
Listen......I'm a New Yorker and I resent you sitting in an armchair and yapping away about power elites and other psychotic conspiracy theories, when more than 3000 Americans died, overhere. Stop it.
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Elizabeth Isabelle
- Posts: 3771
- Joined: Tue Sep 05, 2006 11:35 am
Re: 911
If it was some kind of psychotic conspiracy, New Yorkers should be the first to be ready to get to the truth. If some force of Evil within the government had planned this out, part of the plan would be that it world be too horrible for people to even consider that their own government did this to them. A perfect cover would be to play indignation and use appeal to emotion to prevent people from even looking into what happened. Like Clinton's "how dare you" comment at someone asking a question; because the truth is important - that's how we dare to ask for it. I'm sorry if your feelings are hurt (although I find it difficult to believe that any words would actually hurt a New Yorker's feelings), but the absolute truth is more important than being afraid to offend people.Cybersmiles wrote:Listen......I'm a New Yorker and I resent you sitting in an armchair and yapping away about power elites and other psychotic conspiracy theories
And if you include the asbestosis that will continue to surface for decades to come from this, it will be a lot more than 3,000 people.
If we don't look, and there are people abusing their power, then these sorts of horrors will continue. I'm not saying that government officials are evil, or that they even necessarily meant wrong by doing this, if indeed our government did this horrific act. There is an old saying "the road to hell is paved with good intentions." I'm rather sure that whoever did this and for whatever reasons thought they were doing it for the right reasons - but they were wrong. We need to find out who the real confused people are so we can straighten out their thinking and create peace in this world.
Re: 911
.
-tissue paper-
Cybersmiles - "The Global Power Elite"???????
-tomas-
Well sure. Somebody has gotta be in control. The United Nations has been drawn up... and presently meeting as we speak.
-tissue paper-
Is that a new, more cowardly term for "The Joos"???????
-tomas-
No, no, no. The paradigm of that never was.
-tissue paper-
Listen......I'm a New Yorker
-tomas-
So you "are" a New Yorker. Incapable of thinking for yourself?
-tissue paper-
and I resent you sitting in an armchair and yapping away about power elites
-tomas-
There are governmental chains of command, as one is answerable to the one above. Seems tho, that the office of vice-president, currently held by Richard "Dick" Cheney, holds a different view that that one is answerable to no one entity. Dick Cheney may be correct in that (he) receives his power from the people and no one else. Only "the people" can hold him accountable, and who (in legalese) are the people?
Spiro Agnew prattled his way to a 'nolo contendre' plea - and the court accepted it, without a serious (higher-up) review. Thusly a precedent was set. Spiro was one shrewd lawyer-trained fellow American. A slick governor of Maryland, and an even-slicker county commissioner. So be it.
I only bring up Spiro (wow, on a first-name basis) as i met him once and he was the quite charming dude. He lived in "disgrace" but he lived well. Dick Nixon sure could pick'em.
-tissue paper-
and other psychotic conspiracy theories,
-tomas-
So your position is that the government's official view of 9/11's unfolding-events is the conspiracy we must believe.
Just who put together the governments' conspiracy-view of things?
-tissue paper-
when more than 3000 Americans died, overhere. Stop it.
-tomas-
Now its "more than" - 3,000?
ps- The avatar shows where your thought-process is.
Tomas (the tank)
Prince of Jerusalem
16 Degree
Scottish Rite Free Mason
.
-tissue paper-
Cybersmiles - "The Global Power Elite"???????
-tomas-
Well sure. Somebody has gotta be in control. The United Nations has been drawn up... and presently meeting as we speak.
-tissue paper-
Is that a new, more cowardly term for "The Joos"???????
-tomas-
No, no, no. The paradigm of that never was.
-tissue paper-
Listen......I'm a New Yorker
-tomas-
So you "are" a New Yorker. Incapable of thinking for yourself?
-tissue paper-
and I resent you sitting in an armchair and yapping away about power elites
-tomas-
There are governmental chains of command, as one is answerable to the one above. Seems tho, that the office of vice-president, currently held by Richard "Dick" Cheney, holds a different view that that one is answerable to no one entity. Dick Cheney may be correct in that (he) receives his power from the people and no one else. Only "the people" can hold him accountable, and who (in legalese) are the people?
Spiro Agnew prattled his way to a 'nolo contendre' plea - and the court accepted it, without a serious (higher-up) review. Thusly a precedent was set. Spiro was one shrewd lawyer-trained fellow American. A slick governor of Maryland, and an even-slicker county commissioner. So be it.
I only bring up Spiro (wow, on a first-name basis) as i met him once and he was the quite charming dude. He lived in "disgrace" but he lived well. Dick Nixon sure could pick'em.
-tissue paper-
and other psychotic conspiracy theories,
-tomas-
So your position is that the government's official view of 9/11's unfolding-events is the conspiracy we must believe.
Just who put together the governments' conspiracy-view of things?
-tissue paper-
when more than 3000 Americans died, overhere. Stop it.
-tomas-
Now its "more than" - 3,000?
ps- The avatar shows where your thought-process is.
Tomas (the tank)
Prince of Jerusalem
16 Degree
Scottish Rite Free Mason
.
Last edited by Tomas on Tue Dec 11, 2007 6:23 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Alex Jacob
- Posts: 1671
- Joined: Mon Jun 27, 2011 2:10 am
- Location: Meta-Rabbit Hole
Re: 911
The Blogging Continues...
Elizabeth blogged:
"...but they were wrong. We need to find out who the real confused people are so we can straighten out their thinking and create peace in this world."
But what if, what if in fact, we are moving toward a stage where large-scale wars will no longer be desirable by anyone, but to get there we have to plow through a region, defeat pockets of resistance, link a whole region (Eurasia) into the world economy in such a way that it becomes dependant on existant distribution systems to survive and prosper? And what if the only way to carry that out is through active aggression, using force, not being soft but being very hard, but cleverly and strategically so? And what if the only power to carry this out on the planet right now is the US of A?
Elizabeth blogged:
"...but they were wrong. We need to find out who the real confused people are so we can straighten out their thinking and create peace in this world."
But what if, what if in fact, we are moving toward a stage where large-scale wars will no longer be desirable by anyone, but to get there we have to plow through a region, defeat pockets of resistance, link a whole region (Eurasia) into the world economy in such a way that it becomes dependant on existant distribution systems to survive and prosper? And what if the only way to carry that out is through active aggression, using force, not being soft but being very hard, but cleverly and strategically so? And what if the only power to carry this out on the planet right now is the US of A?
Ni ange, ni bête
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Elizabeth Isabelle
- Posts: 3771
- Joined: Tue Sep 05, 2006 11:35 am
Re: 911
Your premise is faulty. There is a way other than active aggression. Being proactive is being assertive, not being aggressive. There is a difference.
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Alex Jacob
- Posts: 1671
- Joined: Mon Jun 27, 2011 2:10 am
- Location: Meta-Rabbit Hole
Re: 911
There is a difference between being aggressive and being assertive, yes. There are any number of alternatives to the activity of outright conquest and occupation, and encircling the region with military bases and using all available channels to effect one's will, yes.
I might be mistaken, yet I would imagine that the powerful groups and interests that direct affairs, because it is their domain of expertise, have a pretty good idea how to go about their business. It has worked almost extraordinarily well for the interests that divided up the world and planned the post war economy. An extraordinary success, all things considered. (Yet, as much was gained, much was lost, and a declaration of what was and is lost could perhaps be found in a Ginsberg poem, such as Howl or Sunflower Sutra...)
I think this is the game of imperial politics, and it is by its nature very ugly, very raw. True, these powerful people, groups, and interests that make decisions and act on them might make mistakes, miscalculate, or place too much emphasis on the military aspect because of outright greed, but there is nothing in what you wrote that points out a clear alternative, so in that sense the premise stands.
Just as the US, after WW2, made decisions, took action, and did not hesitate before the task given us by God, the Author of Freedom, so too now it stands as a possibility that they may be successful in what they are attempting.
Me? I stay close to my hookah and wait for instructions from the earth-goddesses of yore...
I might be mistaken, yet I would imagine that the powerful groups and interests that direct affairs, because it is their domain of expertise, have a pretty good idea how to go about their business. It has worked almost extraordinarily well for the interests that divided up the world and planned the post war economy. An extraordinary success, all things considered. (Yet, as much was gained, much was lost, and a declaration of what was and is lost could perhaps be found in a Ginsberg poem, such as Howl or Sunflower Sutra...)
I think this is the game of imperial politics, and it is by its nature very ugly, very raw. True, these powerful people, groups, and interests that make decisions and act on them might make mistakes, miscalculate, or place too much emphasis on the military aspect because of outright greed, but there is nothing in what you wrote that points out a clear alternative, so in that sense the premise stands.
Just as the US, after WW2, made decisions, took action, and did not hesitate before the task given us by God, the Author of Freedom, so too now it stands as a possibility that they may be successful in what they are attempting.
Me? I stay close to my hookah and wait for instructions from the earth-goddesses of yore...
Ni ange, ni bête
Re: 911
Well, I have a patron, Uncle Sam, who puts money in my account every month, for which I am grateful. He also funded my education, much of which was a waste of time, and while I flunked typing, (I am too dyslexic to type a paragraph without errors) that was good enuf for college reports. Professors didnt care how much whiteout I used. And it came in real handy the first time my fingers hit a computer keyboard in 1969.Alex Jacob wrote:You are a cruel mistress, Carl G...
By way of explanation, I write to please myself, and my posts are rarely short, and I guess they are sort of blog-like, but what of it? I write usually in relation to what I am reading and for my own purposes. If you don't like it, find your own damn forum (joke). I am 'ashamed' to admit that I don't really care if anyone reads what I write or not. Additionally, I am sort of 'trapped' on this forum, which is not very useful to me, because I don't have very good luck at locating interesting forums where a whole gamut of ideas can be discussed. This forum has a certain potential in that regard but always seems to remain slightly dysfunctional and lop-sided...
What's your excuse staffsargeant daybrown?
So- I've had a lotta practice, and its real easy for me to punch my way thru anything. And like you, I dont really giva fuck who reads what I post, here, on usenet, or http://daybrown.org ; I've read enuf ancient authors to know that there may yet be sentient beings born who find what I have to say useful. They will no doubt also gain an insight into our times by the kinds of responses and other posts seen in forums like this.
When I consider how it looks how posters think, if that's the right word, I must consider the possibility that most, if not all, of the postings are by Turing machines. Including those I post. For instance, I just finished uploading a translation of Epictetus to daybrown.org/epictus/epictus.html which has been available as an ascii download for 20+ years.
And here- well just compare. Jesus is special because of his humble beginnings. Epictetus goes him one better by being born a slave, And goes Jesus two better by being crippled from abuse in childhood. And yet a third more better by becoming the slave of a slave. The Romans thot it was funny. But nobody has yet made the movie. "That which does not kill me, only makes me stronger." and he is, in so many ways.
And he presents to us a superior system of moral values that does not depend on faith in god. Yet, the atheists, who are so often denigrated for being amoral, are so fucking stupid and ignorant, they've not picked up on it, and look like Turing machines. Point by point, he could take on Jesus and St. Paul in any open forum debate, and win the moral high ground hands down. Yet, none of the secular humanists, communists, or other opponents of Christian fundamentalism have passed the word around, and they also look like Turing machines.
Then there's the Liberals, who are oblivious of the oil and drug money being used to fund warlords who will not sit down and play nice, but simply have to be shot for the safety of everyone else. Or the Conservatives who need the macho feed back of heavy weapons and shit blowing up innocent people to hit on a merely susptected target. And both of them arguing about torture when, in fact, torture is obsolete. We can use brain scans, for one. It looks like more mindless Turing machine postings taking up the bandwidth.
As for the Power Elite and the Jews... No Aryan nation in all history ever had a "Jewish" problem that didnt regard the Old Testament as "god's word". Yeah, there's "Jews" and "Christians" on Wall Street networked with global good old boys, but the only thing they really worship is the Almighty Dollar. I keep saying we dont have a "Jewish problem", we have a "Christian Problem", but the Turing machines that call me anti-semite dont have a response programmed for that idea, so they never see it. And moreover, the world does need some organization. My only problem is that the cost of management charged us by Wall Street is kinda high.
But New York City is such a provincial place, the Turing machines that live there dont realize it. And only New York is so self centered that it'd try to get a worn out mayor elected president. it looks like some of the TV sitcom writers have been crafting the primary campaigns, and those farces are just as canned, and would do better with laff tracks. "God's Plan" is just too corny to be believed, and needs a rewrite also.
I'm just a hack writer for the Goddess team waiting for the old boy to get off center stage. He's fucking senile, his rants are scaring people, and its high time to pull the curtain on him and get on with sex, drugs, rock & roll.
There's a lotta clutter if you want to find another sentient being to dialogue with.
Goddess made sex for company.
Re: 911
Alex Jacob wrote:
This is what makes it not a discussion. Talk about your Turing machines.
Daybrown wrote:I write to please myself, and my posts are rarely short, and I guess they are sort of blog-like, but what of it? I write usually in relation to what I am reading and for my own purposes. If you don't like it, find your own damn forum (joke). I am 'ashamed' to admit that I don't really care if anyone reads what I write or not.
The blogger's mantra: I don't care who reads or criticizes me, I'm just going to blog on.And like you, I dont really giva fuck who reads what I post, here, on usenet, or http://daybrown.org
This is what makes it not a discussion. Talk about your Turing machines.
Good Citizen Carl
Re: 911
How do you know you are not a Turing machine Carl? Do you have any evidence you can present us here?Carl G wrote:Alex Jacob wrote:Daybrown wrote:I write to please myself, and my posts are rarely short, and I guess they are sort of blog-like, but what of it? I write usually in relation to what I am reading and for my own purposes. If you don't like it, find your own damn forum (joke). I am 'ashamed' to admit that I don't really care if anyone reads what I write or not.The blogger's mantra: I don't care who reads or criticizes me, I'm just going to blog on.And like you, I dont really giva fuck who reads what I post, here, on usenet, or http://daybrown.org
This is what makes it not a discussion. Talk about your Turing machines.
Goddess made sex for company.
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Alex Jacob
- Posts: 1671
- Joined: Mon Jun 27, 2011 2:10 am
- Location: Meta-Rabbit Hole
Re: 911
Just telling you the truth, Carl G. From what I have seen so far, there are really very few who have interest in discussion anyway. Look through almost any thread. Thousands of ideas are presented (in my posts anyway) and the poor dolts here, likely medicated, are not stimulated to respond. There is so much to respond to, so much to think about, so much that might be said. The preference here, I have noted, is the linguistic masturbationary reduction rehearsal, and second to that the outright flame-thread. The third seems to be some teenager sitting at home in suburbia who envisions himself in some Kung Fu simulacra situation-drama---The Life of the Sage or something like that. Must be a hormonal thing.
And I'm going to have to call you on 'that's not a discussion'. If you have interest in discussion, enter into a discussion. Act. Change the place, change the world.
And I'm going to have to call you on 'that's not a discussion'. If you have interest in discussion, enter into a discussion. Act. Change the place, change the world.
Last edited by Anonymous on Tue Dec 11, 2007 11:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Ni ange, ni bête
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Alex Jacob
- Posts: 1671
- Joined: Mon Jun 27, 2011 2:10 am
- Location: Meta-Rabbit Hole
Re: 911
A blog in response to a blog:
It is my particular, free-roaming pet theory that the impulse or the feeling toward divinity, as the foundation of all that exists or as the sum total, is a very important thing, and not only is it unlikely that it can be done away with and replaced, even by a sophisticated atheism or agnosticism, but that it 'shouldn't' be done away with.
As a student of literature, I find that the best impulses and the best artistic creations seemed to have arisen from those individuals who had a sense of the divine, which is not at all the same as being captured by dogmatism or serving Moloch-of-the-mind. For example I love and admire Chekov, Korolenko, Mauriac, Tagore, Hesse---these are the people I have been reading lately---and they are all 'deeply spiritual men', men who have a sense of the divine. In thousands of pages written here, and with millions of words, it is very rarely that anyone ever writes things that express things authentic to themlselves. Here, 'theology' is a sad accounting game of zeroes and ones...(Obviously, I am just taking devious jabs at the forum as I always do, it is a form of grandstanding).
I have often felt, like you apparently, that the atheists, even brilliant atheists like B Russell and Cloriss Lamont (The Illusion of Immortality and the father of 'humanism') in the end are insignificant because there is a whole area, a vast area within man, that they simply cannot see. It just doesn't appear on their radar. (I also have this sense here, generally, on this forum: people who have blinders on, have no appreciation or understanding of art in the widest sense possible, and whose theology, for me, would be a death-sentence, a condemning to a mental asylum, a fate resolved only by suicide...)
The trick is to relentlessly seek to elevate and expand and enrich one's theology, one's idea about God, and never to arrive at a plateau, and always and ruthlessly to avoid dogma, cultivate irony. Thinking about it, the best example I could present, and the most relevant to the poor, confused madmen and women who live in this shadowy cave of absurdity called GF, would be the writings (and the mood) of Hermann Hesse. But, the boys and girls here, in those moments when their mental illnesses are in an abated state, prefer math puzzles. Go figure...)
I totally agree with and relate to your approach as regards 'ancient history'. "In the words and deeds of the past there lies a hidden treasure that men may use to strengthen and elevate their own character. But the way to study the past is not through rote memorization, but through application of these truths, to give actuality to the past". (That from 6-gram 26 of the Wilhelm I-Ching, from memory).
Maybe, as you say, all that is is behaving like a universal Turing Machine and a form of busy-beaverism...but I like to think that a human being can 'engage' with the divine, and that the divine can and does respond to our struggle, our search for meaning, and our desire to enrich ourselves by feeding ourselves on relevant and meaningful spiritual and intellectual 'food' and also maintaining a spiritual openness to Life. I don't fully accept the Turing model (I hardly understand it, except superficially) and would throw into the picture the unsolicited 'synchronicitic event', the grand wrench in the cog. Can we from time to time STOP acting like automatons? I think that if we do, we do so as poets.
___________________________________________________
Oh come on, Carl G! Lighten up, would you? Here, you're a swell fellow, I offer you one of my favorite alltime poems which was invoked out of the American mire and the bleak Railroad Grime of the eternal American Post-War Era, and which is offered right now at this point of critical healing on this miserable, down-in-the-mouth, collapsed Peter-Pan boyscout camp of sheer irrelevancy and endless sadness and stupidity!
Sunflower Sutra
It is my particular, free-roaming pet theory that the impulse or the feeling toward divinity, as the foundation of all that exists or as the sum total, is a very important thing, and not only is it unlikely that it can be done away with and replaced, even by a sophisticated atheism or agnosticism, but that it 'shouldn't' be done away with.
As a student of literature, I find that the best impulses and the best artistic creations seemed to have arisen from those individuals who had a sense of the divine, which is not at all the same as being captured by dogmatism or serving Moloch-of-the-mind. For example I love and admire Chekov, Korolenko, Mauriac, Tagore, Hesse---these are the people I have been reading lately---and they are all 'deeply spiritual men', men who have a sense of the divine. In thousands of pages written here, and with millions of words, it is very rarely that anyone ever writes things that express things authentic to themlselves. Here, 'theology' is a sad accounting game of zeroes and ones...(Obviously, I am just taking devious jabs at the forum as I always do, it is a form of grandstanding).
I have often felt, like you apparently, that the atheists, even brilliant atheists like B Russell and Cloriss Lamont (The Illusion of Immortality and the father of 'humanism') in the end are insignificant because there is a whole area, a vast area within man, that they simply cannot see. It just doesn't appear on their radar. (I also have this sense here, generally, on this forum: people who have blinders on, have no appreciation or understanding of art in the widest sense possible, and whose theology, for me, would be a death-sentence, a condemning to a mental asylum, a fate resolved only by suicide...)
The trick is to relentlessly seek to elevate and expand and enrich one's theology, one's idea about God, and never to arrive at a plateau, and always and ruthlessly to avoid dogma, cultivate irony. Thinking about it, the best example I could present, and the most relevant to the poor, confused madmen and women who live in this shadowy cave of absurdity called GF, would be the writings (and the mood) of Hermann Hesse. But, the boys and girls here, in those moments when their mental illnesses are in an abated state, prefer math puzzles. Go figure...)
I totally agree with and relate to your approach as regards 'ancient history'. "In the words and deeds of the past there lies a hidden treasure that men may use to strengthen and elevate their own character. But the way to study the past is not through rote memorization, but through application of these truths, to give actuality to the past". (That from 6-gram 26 of the Wilhelm I-Ching, from memory).
Maybe, as you say, all that is is behaving like a universal Turing Machine and a form of busy-beaverism...but I like to think that a human being can 'engage' with the divine, and that the divine can and does respond to our struggle, our search for meaning, and our desire to enrich ourselves by feeding ourselves on relevant and meaningful spiritual and intellectual 'food' and also maintaining a spiritual openness to Life. I don't fully accept the Turing model (I hardly understand it, except superficially) and would throw into the picture the unsolicited 'synchronicitic event', the grand wrench in the cog. Can we from time to time STOP acting like automatons? I think that if we do, we do so as poets.
___________________________________________________
Oh come on, Carl G! Lighten up, would you? Here, you're a swell fellow, I offer you one of my favorite alltime poems which was invoked out of the American mire and the bleak Railroad Grime of the eternal American Post-War Era, and which is offered right now at this point of critical healing on this miserable, down-in-the-mouth, collapsed Peter-Pan boyscout camp of sheer irrelevancy and endless sadness and stupidity!
Sunflower Sutra
Last edited by Anonymous on Tue Dec 11, 2007 10:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Ni ange, ni bête
Re: 911
You are right, Alex, this place does read more like a hospital ward than a Genius Forum. And I do appreciate your pleas for discussion of truly meaty topics and your introductions of same, actually. I, however, have little time for weighty exchanges, and so it must suffice for me only to point out illogic where I see it, and inflict other similar pinpricks, to bloody a few thoughts here and there.
Good Citizen Carl
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Kevin Solway
- Posts: 2766
- Joined: Mon Sep 17, 2001 8:43 am
- Location: Australia
- Contact:
Re: 911
I think Alex's posts are weighty in the sense of carrying too much fat.Carl G wrote:weighty exchanges
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Alex Jacob
- Posts: 1671
- Joined: Mon Jun 27, 2011 2:10 am
- Location: Meta-Rabbit Hole
I can't teach you how to weed it out...
Kevin, for you I have this gift.
Whole universes surround you, Kevin, and you don't even know they're there.
This forum reminds me of the Time reporter.
There are alternatives...
Things get set in motion, Kevin, and they can never go back to where they were!
Just think of that extraordinary fact...
There is someone, there on the end of a long lever, and they are moving you. You will never be the same again, Kevin.
Selah
Whole universes surround you, Kevin, and you don't even know they're there.
This forum reminds me of the Time reporter.
There are alternatives...
Things get set in motion, Kevin, and they can never go back to where they were!
Just think of that extraordinary fact...
There is someone, there on the end of a long lever, and they are moving you. You will never be the same again, Kevin.
Selah
Ni ange, ni bête
Re: 911
Gibbon may not be the only source who reported that the Romans all thot religion was true, the philsophers all thot religion was false, and the politicians all knew religion was useful. But I note as well, which Alex touched on, that none of the philophers were atheists, and they all thot the atheists were sophists.
Course, we know from hints in their writing that many philosphers were Epoptes, and had, therefore drunk Kykeion, which we now know was laced with lysergic acids. LSD mite even wake up a Turing machine. And still today, you can go to the Yucatan where a shaman will give you his sacred shrooms, and that will have the same effect. Course, that direct experience of the divine is nearly universally realized to not be the father gods of scripture.
The hippies usta talk of how a few quarts of pure LSD would wake up an entire city like New York. It would actually take a few hundred kg to wake up 8.3 million. And nobody has figured out how to ramp up production to that scale. Even the most famous, and well organized of them all, the Eleusinian Mysteries, only woke up 4000 once a year. Naturally, you'd get quite a few philosophers out of that.
But then, or now, it has a trivial impact on the masses of sheeple. If you look at it from the stand point of a Matrix, how many of those who you see really need sophisticated programming to behave as you see them? Written in my memory is being a zombie in a machine that lived for the 10 minutes of smoke break every hour. it was the sheer mindlessness that made that kind of existence possible. Those I worked with knew nothing of "Chekov, Korolenko, Mauriac, Tagore, Hesse-" or even Plato, Nietzsche, or Ayn Rand. At best they could draw on a database of sport statistics. A couple gigs of Excell could handle that.
No. what would it actually require in terms of computer databases and cpu speed to render what passes for Western Civilization? I dunno what the numbers are, but I know that with a little surfing on the current state of the art, that one could be generated that was credible. it dont require any of that "infinite wisdom" bullshit in scripture.
Nor, given modern means of telecommunication, would the 911 plot have needed an unreasonable number to pull off. There are lotsa automatons around who will do what they are told without understanding what they are doing.
Course, we know from hints in their writing that many philosphers were Epoptes, and had, therefore drunk Kykeion, which we now know was laced with lysergic acids. LSD mite even wake up a Turing machine. And still today, you can go to the Yucatan where a shaman will give you his sacred shrooms, and that will have the same effect. Course, that direct experience of the divine is nearly universally realized to not be the father gods of scripture.
The hippies usta talk of how a few quarts of pure LSD would wake up an entire city like New York. It would actually take a few hundred kg to wake up 8.3 million. And nobody has figured out how to ramp up production to that scale. Even the most famous, and well organized of them all, the Eleusinian Mysteries, only woke up 4000 once a year. Naturally, you'd get quite a few philosophers out of that.
But then, or now, it has a trivial impact on the masses of sheeple. If you look at it from the stand point of a Matrix, how many of those who you see really need sophisticated programming to behave as you see them? Written in my memory is being a zombie in a machine that lived for the 10 minutes of smoke break every hour. it was the sheer mindlessness that made that kind of existence possible. Those I worked with knew nothing of "Chekov, Korolenko, Mauriac, Tagore, Hesse-" or even Plato, Nietzsche, or Ayn Rand. At best they could draw on a database of sport statistics. A couple gigs of Excell could handle that.
No. what would it actually require in terms of computer databases and cpu speed to render what passes for Western Civilization? I dunno what the numbers are, but I know that with a little surfing on the current state of the art, that one could be generated that was credible. it dont require any of that "infinite wisdom" bullshit in scripture.
Nor, given modern means of telecommunication, would the 911 plot have needed an unreasonable number to pull off. There are lotsa automatons around who will do what they are told without understanding what they are doing.
Goddess made sex for company.
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Alex Jacob
- Posts: 1671
- Joined: Mon Jun 27, 2011 2:10 am
- Location: Meta-Rabbit Hole
Re: 911
Daybrown wrote:
"Course, that direct experience of the divine is nearly universally realized to not be the father gods of scripture."
Well, in those semi-shamanic Mexican Indigenous cultures where they use the mushroom and other plants such as Morning Glory, there has been a really interesting syncretism between the old mythologies, whatever they may have been, with modern Catholicism and all its images and symbols.
Catholicism, with its pagan base, is quite adaptable in that sense, and adapts very nicely---there is so much for the soul to draw on, the symbolism is so rich. If by 'father gods' you are referring to Judaism (and the other mono-theism), it appears that the female element is lacking, that's true, but it has a strange way of working its way back in, and in the quabalah all the different potencies are represented, and male is always balanced by female.
My own psychedelic experiences---I have been tripping for 2 years two hundred and forty-seven days now---have never conflicted with my own 'father God' upbringing, and one main element that always comes to me with strange force is the idea of 'being freed from slavery in Egypt' and all that the idea of freedom can mean.
"Course, that direct experience of the divine is nearly universally realized to not be the father gods of scripture."
Well, in those semi-shamanic Mexican Indigenous cultures where they use the mushroom and other plants such as Morning Glory, there has been a really interesting syncretism between the old mythologies, whatever they may have been, with modern Catholicism and all its images and symbols.
Catholicism, with its pagan base, is quite adaptable in that sense, and adapts very nicely---there is so much for the soul to draw on, the symbolism is so rich. If by 'father gods' you are referring to Judaism (and the other mono-theism), it appears that the female element is lacking, that's true, but it has a strange way of working its way back in, and in the quabalah all the different potencies are represented, and male is always balanced by female.
My own psychedelic experiences---I have been tripping for 2 years two hundred and forty-seven days now---have never conflicted with my own 'father God' upbringing, and one main element that always comes to me with strange force is the idea of 'being freed from slavery in Egypt' and all that the idea of freedom can mean.
Ni ange, ni bête
Re: 911
Ya, I am referring to Jehovah, Jesus, Allah. I also remember when my protestant kin thot Catholocism was the cult of Mary, an icon that resonates in Central America. Of course, the divine is sexless; but given the problem with demagogues, we can all see that if the generally accepted concept of the divine is female, then the demagogue will have a hard time claiming that *he* speaks in *her* name.
Nobody holds a lynching, inquisition, or goes to war in the name of Mary. Nor do I doubt that those who had a faith who took part in the 911 event thot they were fulling "God's will", to motivate the American sheeple to go to war against Allah.
The constant trickle of reports on 911 have yet to make it to the TV news. I'm just not sure what it'll take. There still seem to be some posters who think Saddam was involved. The ongoing CIA hearings could leak over into 911; that'd prolly do it. And if the "intelligence community" itself blew the whistle on 911, it'd be saving its own ass.
Still, it looks like waiting for Elija.
Nobody holds a lynching, inquisition, or goes to war in the name of Mary. Nor do I doubt that those who had a faith who took part in the 911 event thot they were fulling "God's will", to motivate the American sheeple to go to war against Allah.
The constant trickle of reports on 911 have yet to make it to the TV news. I'm just not sure what it'll take. There still seem to be some posters who think Saddam was involved. The ongoing CIA hearings could leak over into 911; that'd prolly do it. And if the "intelligence community" itself blew the whistle on 911, it'd be saving its own ass.
Still, it looks like waiting for Elija.
Goddess made sex for company.
Re: 911
....i haven't read the rest of the stuff above....because i don't feel like it...mainly because its repeating itself over and over....or thats what it seems like to me.
but im just throwing something up here....why would our government do it?
but im just throwing something up here....why would our government do it?
Re: 911
Its not egzactly the government. There was a synergy among various powerful interests.DFBatosee wrote: but im just throwing something up here....why would our government do it?
1- A falseflag event was needed to mobilize America to invade the heart of Islam.
a- this shifted the attention of the Jihadim terrorism from the periphery of Islam in SE Asia where it was driving up insurance rates for the new high rise towers they wanted to build.
b- the oil. It was hoped that sweetheart deals would enrich American oil companies at the same time cutting off the flow of oil money that had been funding Jihad.
2- Remember Hassenfus and the cocaine flights thru Mena? The situation in Central America stabilized, and the CIA needed a new source for drugs. The Taliban had destroyed opium production in Afghanistan, and the economic impact was creating opposition. Since the CIA has taken over Afghanistan, leaving Karzai as figurehead mayor of Kabul, production has skyrocketed and the price in Kandahar has plummeted. And now, we have the same C-130's coming back with so much opium that the street price in New York has plummeted below 100$/gram. It was 100$/gram 30 years ago.
This has proved beneficial because unlike meth, crack, & cocaine, opium users are laid back, dont get paranoid, and dont start streetgang wars.
3- Swiss financial analysis reveals fortunes were made on put calls just prior to 9/11/01; and we also have Silverstein, who alone stood to collect billions in insurance off his contracts for the WTC complex.
4- WTC 7 was used by the CIA and other government agencies to store computers with critical data that mite be used for evidence in the activities of Mossad and the CIA. Its destruction solved that problem.
4- Mossad had a similar need for a falseflag event since the Palestinians could not unite behind any political entity to settle the issue of a Palestinian state and a recognized border. The resulting invasion of Iraq sucked zealots out of Palestine to Iraq, which reduced the amount of terrorism that Israel had to deal with.
There was no need for Bush to know about any of this. Even with Cheney, the Huey P. Long school of government rules apply:
1- dont ever say anything in writing, much less email.
2- Never say over the phone what you can say in person.
3- never speak when you can nod.
4- Never nod when you can smile.
A "conspiracy" is not quite what we've been told to think it is.
Goddess made sex for company.