Another great anti-feminist site

[Boyan]

It doesn't have to be in English. The person who did it to me did it in Spanish, though he speaks very fluent English.

Why don't you want to try it in your own language? I was talking about the kneeling down thing I described, not the "do you wanna fuck" line. But that one is good also.

-

Oh, I thought you were talking about the fucking drink line :)

He fell on his knees and asked you out? Did he put his hand together like in a prayer too? I think one can rarely do that except if in love with the person, or marriage proposal and such.

That would take a great amount of courage or not taking oneself very seriously. I have some of both. Of course being in love as I said would do it too. Being drunk also, but it would take away from it certainly since it's easy to be brave after a couple of drinks.

Of course, doing both things at the same time - the drink line and knees - would be hilarious.

[Shahrazad]

Boyan,

He fell on his knees and asked you out? Did he put his hand together like in a prayer too?

No, I think he was holding my hand in his. I was sitting inside a sedan with the door open, so I was pretty low.

I think one can rarely do that except if in love with the person, or marriage proposal and such.

I don't remember someone doing that with me except that one time, and no, the guy was not in love; he just had a crush. I've been told he was quite the womanizer. He would've been unfaithful to me after a few months, if not weeks. I'm probably lucky we never went out.

That would take a great amount of courage or not taking oneself very seriously.

I suspect with my friend, it was the latter. He was a cool guy.

Of course, doing both things at the same time - the drink line and knees - would be hilarious.

Yes. If you look at it as something funny, you can avoid seeing it as humiliation. However, you have to keep a straight face while you do it, or you won't be taken seriously.

-

[Greg Shantz]

IIt is amazing what men will put up with just to keep their sexual security, they will listen to hours of mindless gibberish, and incoherent babble, they will work jobs they hate, they will get in loads of debt, make promises they can't keep, they will have many children to please her. Basically, they will sell their souls all in the name of woman, a woman’s vagina.

This reminds me of the regular feature in Following Cerebus called Dave Sim's Favorite Buffy the Vampire Slayer Photo This Month from issue #3:

Photo

This, gentlemen, is what I used to know as Shopping Emergency Face. I assume that Miss Gellar had (at least partial) wardrobe approval for her television program, but even the fact that the outfit didn't cost you anything and you chose it is no sure hedge against Shopping Emergency Face. Shopping Emergency Face says, "Looked good on the hanger, looks terrible on." Which it doesn't, of course; it looks fine. Very pretty and very feminine (apart far from the red-and-green Christmas-y colour scheme) and very flattering to a size 3 female, which I assume Miss Gellar is. But it clearly has some repressed unhappy association attached to it which has compelled her usually gorgeous hair to just flatten out around her face, her nose to enlarge, her otherwise non-existent tummy to FLUMP out the front there (in extremis, this aspect of unconscious self-uglification can be a leading cause of anorexia) and for her to adopt a posture and her arms to assume a configuration which she hasn't used since she was eight-to-ten years old. Any minute now, she's going to ask someone"This dress makes my ass look fat, doesn't it?" in a tone of voice that will brook no denial. The eye has become infected with the clinical insanity that is heldb at bay in the female of the species only (and just barely) by the sure awareness that she looks "at least okay." Shopping Emergency Face derives its name from the fact that the opposite effect of a new outfit has been created, and she feels much worse instead of much better. Essentially she is now owed two nice new pretty outfits-one of which will serve as compensation for what the "unhappy association dress" has done to her emotionally and psychologically, and the other to take her to the happy state she intended the original purchase to achieve-all the while realizing that this is rather unreasonable of her, which, in turn, only exacerbates the level of clinical insanity now lighting the corner of her eye.

Shopping Emergency Face is a tough one.

Essentially you have to persuade her that she looks fine, get her out of the dress, get the dress way, way, way to the back of her closet (where she won't see it again until she and a girlfriend are sucking back the white wine and going through all her clothes, at which time she can happily give it away with a clear conscience and an alcohol-warmed sense of generosity), get her into clothes in which she is certain she looks "at least okay," and get her to a mall and into a frame of mind to try on other outfits and to buy her two of them if she lacks the independent means to do so. The worst option is to let her buy shoes to go with the unhappy association dress on the assumption that that might be the problem. At that point she will be owed two pretty new outfits and two pairs of completely impractical shoes, and you might be looking at a second mortgage, depending on where she chooses to buy them.

(Sarah Michelle Gellar photo from the fourth season episode "The Freshman.")

[daybrown]

Daybrown,

I've yet to see any clue that anything you do can make it better. I see the hand of Fate in Murphy's law way too often to disregard it, but yet to see the point in the chronic frustration of goals.

I don't think you can usually make it better or worse either, except for obvious goof-ups.

I eventually found out that kharma is only against me in finding a compatible mate. Haven't you ever heard it said that those who are lucky with love are unlucky with games of chance, and viceversa? I don't like gambling, but I'm pretty lucky in attracting money and property, without much of an effort. Sure, wealth is no substitute for affection, but I've learned to see it as a consolation price, and it sure comes in handy when someone in your family or yourself needs medical care.
-

Finding a compatible mate would be a lot more feasible in a village. When the choices are so few in number, nobody imagines they will find "mr Right". Everyone gets by on mr. Yule Dew. And that works for them because there are all the other relationships in the village. In modern urban life, you dont have neighbors, you have traffic. They are not your support, but the competition. And as a result, people tend to hope for all the support they once got from the village in a single individual. Not very many of us are up to that.

Ten years ago, my eldest daughter's husband became a Christian fundy "promise keeper" who spent so much time going to the revivals he didnt have any time for his family any more. Well, Debs is a pretty smart cookie, and after the divorce brought her girls up to stay with me in the boonies while she figured out what to do next. At 33, she was getting a bit too frumpy for the Ft Lauderdale hottie scene, so I dont think she came here to find a man. But she found a woodsman friend of mine, and they been together ever since, and added an absolutely knockout, now 8 yrs old to her trophy blonde production who's also as sharp as her mom.

But again, you know Tim never knew that many women out here, and wasnt looking for anyone 'compatible'. We are all just trying to make do with whoever is around. And now they have a place over at- appropriately named- "Ozone Arkansas". I know another clan of a mother, two daughters, and now 3 other young women, mostly in healthcare & social services who do case management for various men they've found useful. Altho some are married, marriage has more to do with economic issues than matedness; the really important relationships are developing among the women.

[Dan Rowden]

Can someone define "mate" for me? And don't say someone you're compatible with - I kind of get that part, but it's too platitudinous to be meaningful. I want someone to be honest as to what "compatibility" really means.

Can a true individual ever find a "mate"?

[daybrown]

Can someone define "mate" for me? And don't say someone you're compatible with - I kind of get that part, but it's too platitudinous to be meaningful. I want someone to be honest as to what "compatibility" really means.

Can a true individual ever find a "mate"?

Care to define true individual also? Is it love or a neurotic dependancy? I dont use the word 'love' myself; that's what goes on between a mother and child, and whatever I feel is not in the same league.

In any case, these are interesting times when the meaning of so many words is evolving so fast. Just cause I do not feel the need for a 'compatible mate' dont mean that it mite not be appropriate for some others. Whatever floats your boat. I dont have a problem with it. What I have a problem with is the idea that everyone needs to be mated.

i just finished a translation of Epictetus, from the beginning of the 2nd century, before the rise of Christianity, and he admits that family life may be appropriate for some, but the sage must live for all mankind, not just a lover or family. If what you want is the most rational life, then you must minimize the importance of personal relationships unless you can find a mate as completely rational as you are. He mentions one such philosopher and his wife. But also how Socrates put up with Xanthippus. It musta really pissed her off how she could not get a rise out of him. I know; I been there, done that.

[Nick]

Their newest article is a classic.

[daybrown]

Their newest article is a classic.

Oh pleaze. "Girls of 14 quit their studies, and only study how to adorn themselves, knowing that therein their future is assured. We should teach them that modesty, chastity, and such domesticities are their only path to success.:"

Plotinus. 205-270 AD. Its a testament to the lack of education and scholarship that such authors assume that in the days of their fathers things were better.
"And when we visit the halls of the academy, and listen to the young men talk outside the classroom, do we hear them speak of mathematics, philosophy, & literature? No. Its all about races, teams, athletes, and fighters." Roman Sen Seneca, Lucius Annaeus, 5-65AD. the younger. His father was a senator also. A famous Stoic philosopher brought in to teach the son of Agripinna. Who we all know as Nero.

Teachers seem to think that their student's success is due to their instruction, but the student's failure due to genetics.

But agreed Nick, that we are entering interesting times. I no more condemn the young ladies in the above website than I do the young men who are overwhelmingly incompetent to discuss anything other than what sen Seneca heard. The change, therefore, is that girls of 14 will no longer find the supply of perks and benefits from the puny productive efforts of such oafs, and the smart ones have already figured this out. They are already making so much money that they've brought the average income of young women up higher than that of young men.

What we think should be done dont matter. Ask them.

[Alex Jacob]

(The following essay I dedicate to Kevin Solway).

One of the things I find interesting about the sort of site that Nick linked to, is how this sort of critical analysis is attempting to situate itself as the corrective to a world out of control (it mentions even global warming and I assume that 9-11 is mentioned), to the take-over by corporate capitalism which now has a female face, to runaway appetites in the population, young and crafty girls with shaven pussies spreading their legs for the cameras and raking in the big bucks, the sluttification of girl-culture, Girls Gone Wild and all that.

The idea that very clearly is presented is that women, feminists and 'feminism' are the cause of all this upset and confusion and immorality, and without even looking that closely you are made to understand that if women can be re-controlled, if the feminist narratives can be defeated and reversed, and if young women and girls could again be taught to behave decently, to keep their legs crossed for heaven's sake, and come back under the watchful eye of their elder brother and father, that the strange and upsetting modern trends could be reversed, and order would return.

...There is an independant woman, with her devious, flaming, culo-craving homosexual side-kick, affected and vain and immoral through and through, in the control tower of beauty culture, who is at the center of the propaganda effort that controls girl's minds, and she must be stopped, this dangerous, resentful creature---or so goes the narrative.

What is happening in the culture now, is what women have done to themselves, and men had little or nothing to do with it. If you allow 'woman's nature' to come out, what takes shape is a distortion, a perversion, and all on the sudden they clammor for sex with animals, are caught putting all manner of objects up their vaginas, while bashful and frustrated men stand by, powerless, angered and saddened. (The narrative really runs something like this, I'm just tarting it up a bit).

Oddly enough, this view, which is barely disguised, shares a great deal in common with Christian morality and other religious moralities, and has the feel of a Promise Keeper sort of message, doesn't it? If we could only get back to something that makes sense. And again, it is just interesting to note that among the geniuses here, who are spiritual seekers, desert taoists, monks in empty white rooms with begging bowls and scriptures, strangely antagonistic if not contemptuous of women, we note the inclination toward agreement with these views. That's all. We just mark it down in our notebook and say 'hmmmmmm'.

Almost everywhere I look, especially on the internet, we all seem to be rooting around for the reasons why everything is so screwed up, and so many offer opinions, even remedies. Certainly for the superstitious Christian the 'reason' why we have all this madness and confusion is because...parent were stupid enough to allow their children to play with Ouija boards, they were not vigilant when Satan came-a-lurking and popped right in through the television screen. At a critical juncture, something dangerous was not avoided, not resisted. We as a nation have fallen from God's grace because of our perverse appetites, and as always the easiest thing to do is to begin...to hunt around for an Enemy...to look for a culprit to blame, someone who'll pay the price for all this.

One of the things that daybrown has oft referred to is an idea of Gibbon's, that in a republic you have to do everything possible to maintain morals, but that once those morals are destroyed, and you might say that once they are mocked they are on the way to being destroyed, the battle is lost, because once mocked and lost they cannot be reclaimed, and the republic begins the downward spin.

Don't get me wrong, I do have a feeling, as some Vedic (well, Puranic) Indian scripture suggests, that if culture gets so corrupt that the women are raised corrupted, that women (as the last bastions of 'virtue') lose their 'moral compass' and participate in 'immorality' (which always implies that they become too easy, too slutty, too sexual, and no longer attend to the sacrificial fires and the hearth altar), then the whole culture goes into a downward spiral. Once you have lost the virtue of women, the game is over. I am very aware that 60s and 70s culture, like misbehaving children and yet also like explorers, youth sought to throw-off the chains of a 'restrictive morality', to mock and deride the 'religion of their fathers', and to seek to open new paths to so many other and different modalities (exotic, forbidden religions, strange Tantras, anything but what they were raised under). And in a sense it is those children who have gotten lost in a dark and frightening forest, and there are wolves there, and dangerous men, and an entire suppressed landscape.

But is it correct to blame 'the feminists'? The women? I am far more convinced that so much of this has come about because men have lost their moral compass. Women always seem to (want to) do what men want them to, in one way or another. They cannot and do not act independently. They always act relationally. Little girls want so very desperately to please daddy, and will do so much to bask in daddy's approving gaze!

And Hugh Hefner wrote in the first issue of Playboy that he hoped for the sort of woman who would come up to the apartment 'to discuss Neitzsche and eroticism', but really what Hugh wanted was...young girls with shaven pussies opening their legs to the camera.

A classic case of 'be careful what you ask for, you just might get it...'

[daybrown]

There is a synergy of reasons Alex. For one, we are at the end of 5000 years of rule by the warrior class. They can no longer protect us from the very weapons they asked to be developed, like nukes. So all the moral values which have supported their view of things have been destroyed despite whatever intrinsic value they may have had in themselves.

Christianity made a deal with the devil, Constantine, to win the souls of the empire, while he got their gold. Gibbon reported that when Constantine cleaned the Temple to Jupiter from Idolatry before handing the empty shell over to the Bishops, he then got to haul 6 tons of Gold to his new capitol, Constantinople. Converting all the other pagan temples in the empire was a no brainer. the church lacked the moral fiber even back then, to see that the money was spent on improving the situation for the poor.

Another reason is that the hypocrisy is being exposed. I was a Lutheran choir boy, and we all knew what happened to Catholic Choir boys, but we never dreamed it would ever come out. The loss of Morals Alex, is not new, but only now do we realize what has been always going on.

Another thing you can pick up on from the ancient sages, is that the more urban a culture is, the more depraved. There are hard lessons learned in childhood on the farm that you are not going to give kids on field trips. We didnt usta have ADD. If a boy was not paying attention, he got a trip to the woodshed. And what do you know, after that happens a few times, the boy learns to pay attention. That kind of thing still goes on on the family farms in the Ozarks, and the only kids I see who seem to have attention deficit problems brought it here with them. It dont happen on the farm.

The forgiveness of Jesus has not helped. The lessons of Stoicism, which the Founding Farmers were familiar with, were more often applied. Boys who learn to control others, dont learn to control themselves. We dont turn the cheek to insolence, but take the paddle down off the wall.

Then too, you picked up on the feminization of the corporate culture. Well, we've seen that before in the documents that have been preserved in the deserts of the Silk road towns. That are so often written in a female hand. Arranging for their men to get laid when they arrive so they dont come home later with STDs from fucking cheap whores. They didnt need armies to protect them. The desert did it for them. So, they didnt have rule by the warrior class. There are, and always have been two ways to control the behavior of men. Pick one: sex or violence.

Since violence has led to nukes, its time to look at sex. And you can not do that within the framework of Christan morality. I know it is distressing to see the way young ladies carry on, but revolutions tend to go too far, and as matriarchy takes over, they will get control of the girls... and we will become more worried about the dissolution of young men.

A bigger problem is that only the stupid women cant manage birth control or get an abortion. And so each generation has become dumber. So- it dont take much media hype to make both young men and young women act stupidly. Again, as smart women take over, they will take over controlling the breeding of airheads, and may even use them to accept in vitro so that they can give birth to smart girls. We will need the nurses as the boomers retire.

[Alex Jacob]

Boy Scouts of America Scout Oath

"On my honor I will do my best
To do my duty to God and my country
and to obey the Scout Law;
To help other people at all times;
To keep myself physically strong,
mentally awake, and morally straight."

Civic Virtue

A Christian perspective of sexual deviancy and 'moral decline'

Elagabalus

America in Decline?
________________________________________________________

You have perked my interest as to what is 'moral decline'? Dare I ask you what you think was the moral decline that eroded the Roman Republic?
________________________________________________________

As an added bonus, completely underserved by the brute heathens of the GF, I include this link to the text of the 11th Chapter of The Golden Ass of Apuleius.

Commentary: The Golden Ass

[daybrown]

In The Golden Ass, Apulesius describes a dream in which he sees the primordial Goddess. But then, later on in the tale, he describes an event in which he again sees what he saw in the dream. De Jevu, something I, and many of those I have known personally have always witnessed from time to time.

For us, this is a huge clue to the nature of what passes for reality. There's nothing like it in the Levantine scriptures, nor any mention in the sophistry of atheists. For them, it does not apparently exist. You either got it, or you dont. But if you do, the statement by 18th Century Bengalese Saint Ramprasad that everything you see is part of a "projected matrix" out of the mind of the Goddess, makes perfect sense. And like any other form of 3D software, clips can sometimes be misplaced in the order of presentation.

No biggie. Dont sweat it. All the world really is, as Shakespeare said, a stage. So- to thicken the plot, we are given examples like the history of the Roman republic to compare with that of our own. Many of us could write a book on that, but rather, let me bring up a couple points which have only come to our attention recently.

The ancient sages all agreed that cities were cesspools of depravity, and of them all, Rome epitomized. But archeology found the time in recent years to leave the carved marble monuments to look at the bone middens of the rural villages going back 8000 years or more. And they find over 100 wild plants and animals in the diet along with a wide variety of domestic, and semi-domestic varieties. Hominids evolved getting a wide variety of trace minerals and micronutrients- which are not present in the urban diet. I've been told that "Bread & Circuses = Beer & Football". And in this case, we can see the bakeries all over town that provided the bulk of the carbs that the lower classes all got by on.

And while the variety of the tables of the elite is notorious, now we realize that it was cooked in pots made of lead, which were upscale and replaced ceramics. Moreover, a favored fish sauce of the elite was sold and served like catsup on the table in bottles made of lead. We have the policies of Augustus, the original 'family values' politician, to promote the birth rate of the aristocratic women, but now we realize they all suffered from lead poisoning, and its a wonder any gave birth at all. And we know how lead damages mental development in childhood.

So it is that Gibbon notes that none of the truly successful emperors grew up in Rome. And of those who did, the names of Nero, Caligula, and Commodus come easily to mind. All of the competent imperial administers grew up on farms out in the boondocks someplace. And as the supply of farmboys dried up, so has the competence and honesty of government. Robert Kaplan, in his study of the military, notes that half of the Green Berets grew up on family farms. This is but 1% of the total population providing 50% of the nation's most competent and honrable soldiers. You'd think the Pentagon would notice, but the brass hats are all city boys.

So, we even see the decline in morals among the Christian clergy. Were any other profession revealed to have so many pedophiles and perverts there'd be congressional hearings trying to figure out what was going on. Christian morality is fine in theory, but its practice is not sufficient to deal with the problem. Different gene pools have different kinds of psychopathology, and the religions evolve to work with whatever that is.

Moreover, agribusiness has damaged the real nutrition of food, so that like the Romans, what is on our tables is no longer as good for child mental development as seen in a Rockwellian thanksgiving table. You cant raise kids on sugar cereals, junkfood, and soda, and then expect the majority to grow up to be rational voters. And you cant run a republic without an electorate that is rational. What you get instead is a system run behind the scenes by a neurotic, altho clever, power elite, who think only in terms of how to manipulate the group think of the masses without ever, themselves, thinking about the power of group think on their own decision making process.

This destabilizes the system because they are incapable of dealing with corruption within their own ranks and are unable to see the fundamental changes in the global economy being brought on by climate and demographic shifts. Neurotic denial results in political correctness, zealous partisanship and religion, and the erosion of the common ground needed to support the whole system. People sense this.

Wallace, in his anthro classic, noted that when a system is on the skids, people's coping skills dont work so well any more, and they engage in "magical thinking". Thus in Roman times, the city was full of strange cults. Christianity was just one of many with apocalyptic visions. Gibbon notes that even in the 2nd Century, Christians were convinced Jesus would return in their own lifetime. and so it is now, as the exploitation of the power elite increases people loose hope of bettering themselves and now look forward to "The Rapture". Wallace said they engage in "magical thinking". Thus also wicca, tarot, astrology, or the I Ching.

People think of the "dark ages" after the fall of Rome. But in fact, in some places, life for the ordinary people got gonzo better, suddenly freed of the taxes to support a corrupt system. There was a million people in Rome. Well, they all went back to the land. Or tried to, cause a lotta them were so clueless that they starved. Gibbon said that during chaotic times, each man rises to that station to which Nature has intended. ie, the good old boy network no longer supports oafs.

Those who were physically fit enuf, modest enuf in their opinions to listen to what the hicks had to say, and industrious enuf to put up enuf food and fuel for the winter, were able to take care of their families and stayed in the gene pool. Archaeology found Roman tools at yeoman farms in the Black forest dating from the 5th century. Men who would not be Roman slaves, took the tools, seed, and women with them into the forest, and those who were, as above, competent enuf became what we think of as the Germans today. And those who were content to remain slaves in Gaul became the French.

And by the time of Machiavelli, we have his report of the German city states which he so admired. A man would appear at city hall to announce publically what his fair share of the taxes were when he paid them. If a man was generous, so also would all those he did business with be to him; if not, then not. The German farm boys were big, strong, honest, & hardworking, in no small part because of the food and exercise they got growing up. Even as early as the time of Claudius, the Praetorian guard was entirely made up of German farm boys, and thus was first heard the phrase "Das Kaiser".

Hitler blindsided them because, never in all their history had they had such a tyrant. If we do not again rebuild the supply of such farm boys, then we too may turn to such a leader to solve the problem of a corrupt power elite and rid the nation of illegals. Gibbon reported how the aristocracy encouraged immigration into Rome from tribes that lacked strong republican traditions. Machiavelli noted how they then supported the election of demagogues pandering to their ethnicity while at the same time making deals to reduce the taxes on the rich.

A rational electorate would see this, but I dunno if we have enuf rational voters any more.

[daybrown]

"It is a historical fact that the outlawing of adultery, homosexuality, paedophilia, and other immorality, is the result of the influence of Christianity."

We dont have enuf scholarship any more either to challenge nonsense like this. Judging Roman behavior as authors like this would have it, would be like judging American family life based on the reports from Hollywood because this author assumes that everyone behaves as reported in the history of the emperors and their families.

Good grief.

[Carl G]

dayblogger wrote:

The German farm boys were big, strong, honest, & hardworking, in no small part because of the food and exercise they got growing up. Even as early as the time of Claudius, the Praetorian guard was entirely made up of German farm boys, and thus was first heard the phrase "Das Kaiser".

Yes, and this is where originated the "Kaiser Roll." From wheat, the uber grain. Never corn (the flatlander feed, good enuf for only non-Aryans). I've got durum red wheat in my garden still green in December.

[daybrown]

dayblogger wrote:

The German farm boys were big, strong, honest, & hardworking, in no small part because of the food and exercise they got growing up. Even as early as the time of Claudius, the Praetorian guard was entirely made up of German farm boys, and thus was first heard the phrase "Das Kaiser".

Yes, and this is where originated the "Kaiser Roll." From wheat, the uber grain. Never corn (the flatlander feed, good enuf for only non-Aryans). I've got durum red wheat in my garden still green in December.

I dont have it this year, but have had it stay green all winter at 36deg No, in the Ozarks. Where is yours growing?

I dont really have good enuf soil for it up on this ridge. One of the problems the Romans had was that they didnt take care of the ground properly, and it gradually became infertile. Old, late 19th century National Geo photos of Greek and Roman ruins show the landscape all around them nothing but brush that could barely support goats.

It was a whole different thing in Germany, which had better soil to start with, and then they were the first to develop fertilizers.

[Alex Jacob]

Here is something on Magical Thinking.

I was always facinated with the descriptions of the the cult of Isis in the Golden Ass, and the evolution of this cult---this magical system of correspondences, a sort of divination system too---into the Catholic cult of Maria is pretty obvious. You find pretty much the same sort of 'thinking' in the cult of Yemanja in Brasil or Yemaja in the Afro-Cuban religions. (Yemaya). And while it is true that the practices that surround these gods and goddesses require 'magical thinking', it is also interesting to examine the phenomenon as an alternative, yet equally valid 'episteme'.

(And Lucius, at the end of his misadventure, undergoes a religious conversion, and has to rein-in his licentiousness to 'serve' the Goddess).

But as they also note under the definition of Magical Thinking, the practice of magic can tend more toward a sort of science. It requires a fluidity of thinking, and for us rational types, the ability to hold the rational mind in check, to have it and to value it but not always to let it get in the way. There are many lessons in this, especially for the repressed, unhappy fags of this Genius Forum who will never successfully kiss a girl, much less successfully perform cunnilingus. (I've included this link for those who would like to get started).

I think you have more or less completely avoided the fact of Christian and 'Levantine' moral codes within this late Roman history. I read that peice of Christian apologetics and, of course, can see some holes in it, but it also points to a very significant truth: that Christianity functioned as a very powerful reining-in social force, and this sort of 'self-control' can open up all sorts of different doors, and that it was needed. I am inclined to see the Christian focus on the sanctity of marriage, which is also Jewish, as being extremely important, but I don't get the sense that you can touch on this, simply because of your own orientation. Do we sense a little resentment of Christianity? Some contempt for these 'Levantine' traditions? (Not invalid, and understandable of course).

In my way of seeing things, these enforced moralities have an extremely important role, and cannot be done away with. And as you know, I don't have any problem with the core moral codes, nor with the 'God' that has provided them, that come through the Jewish tradition. But I see all traditions as having some special things to contribute, and each of them also is a binary unit, having some very positive aspects and some very negative ones. Along with heaven there always comes hell. It's a terrestrial law, unfortunately.

"We dont have enuf scholarship any more either to challenge nonsense like this. Judging Roman behavior as authors like this would have it, would be like judging American family life based on the reports from Hollywood because this author assumes that everyone behaves as reported in the history of the emperors and their families."

I don't know, perhaps. But Augustine, who was not a 'Hollywood emperor' described a pretty 'corrupt' upbringing and that under the influence of his mother he changed his ways and began to act differently. It is easy to have contempt for the Christians, but one has to be able to see the positive features of their mission.

And if you examine today's climate, and if you were aware of the way that corrupt sexual values are spreading all around the globe through the internet (and sensible and smart people have written about the negative aspects of porn-culture, especially when it is given directly to children as their first exposure to sexuality, as indeed it often is), and the way that porn-culture is spreading strictly within American and N American culture, stemming from the 'Hollywood' examples, like Hilton. One could make a case for a decline in sexual moral values, and one could suggest that the effects may not be good, as the effects mature, and it seems that degeneration in one area also occurs with degeneration in others---a synergy as you suggest. I don't think I am a prude, yet nevertheless there are some very disturbing tendencies, and I don't think they are all that positive.

Also, though interesting, I am not inclined to see these dietary issues as having quite the importance you place on them. Yet it is not irrelevant at all. I don't know what to say about possible---or probable---lead poisoning. In short, in answer to my 'question' about moral decline, you have not done as well as you might have.

The way I sometimes see things, especially in our culture, now, is that people want to revert to 'paganism' and they want to get out from under the restrictive moralities that oppress them. They will run away from their own traditions and hole-up in any number of foreign traditions, this is almost reflexive these days. (This was part of my process and that of many of my generation, born in '62). They overturn some of the existing moralities and structures, and get to 'run free'. But it doesn't seem to work out as they might wish because, when those control structures are dismantled, there is not a structure to contain them, and they don't have the 'moral fibre' of self-control (of Stoicism or any other 'rational' modality either), and it pretty quickly gets ugly.

I think that one has to begin to locate and talk about 'disintegrating influences', perhaps best viewed through a Confucian lens, as is presented in the I-Ching hexagrams...
__________________________________________________

Kaiser Roll? or Bagel? Nine times out of ten, the bagel will win, even among barbarians! It has a way of worming its way in through cleverness and pushiness, and then it just takes over.

[daybrown]

Augustine was also a member of the aristocracy. But lotsa other Roman authors worried about the decline of morals, and few commented on how the 'paganus' remained hardworking and honest folk. It isnt only the diet that made cities cesspools of depravity. Hominids evolved in small groups, and after about 300 faces, they cant remember who everyone is, and need status symbols to know how to relate. You know what kind of trouble that causes.

It is politicians who can remember a thousand or more faces. Crime paid in the city; in the country, one needed to be a member of a bandit gang, but hunters with dogs could track them and bring them to bay. A really long criminal career required the anonymity of a city where hunting dogs didnt work.

Christianity benefited because of the emergence of the clap; the men got over it, but quite often, the internal lesions in women resulted in infertility and death. Monogamy made sense. Even if a husband screwed around in the army, by the time he got back he was over it. So, the double standard was built in from the git go.

Perhaps you recall that Augustus claimed to be a god, and had temples built all over. But mostly, that was recognized as a tax scam, and folks all over laffed about it. But then Christianity comes along and says that the emperor, King, or whatever was put there by god, and the power structures ate it up.

Stoicism would not support slavery either. Christianity did. The hypocrisy we see in Christianity was there from day one. The Jews got a dispensation from the government to pay a pagan to go in to a temple to Augustus to pay the money without having to commit what they regarded as blasphemy against Jehovah. The Christians said they were a jewish cult and got the same dispensation. But then, the 2nd revolt in Jerusalem led to the repression of the Jews, so the Christians said they were not Jews, and demonstrated that they were not circumcized, worshiped on Sunday, ate pork, and conducted gay marriage.

Think about it. would a corrupt people choose an honorable religion, or... would they prefer one which forgave them for being dishonorable in the first place? They have not changed a bit in 2000 years. The dogma was really quite successful, but its time has just about run out in large part based on the pandering it had at the git go to the male ego in a time when the power of women is rising.

But Isis is a non-starter for Native European women. They have plenty of their own goddesses that are more like they are. Isis only got going as part of a trend in Rome to collect Egyptian antiquities. When Cleopatra came to town, misogynists were just flipping out thinking a mass conversion was underway. But it was her idea to transplant the pharonic idea of the viceroy of Amun, Atun, or whatever, onto the Roman emperor. St. Paul stuck Jesus up there, who was not an Egyptian, and painted him as the victim of the Jews, which sold really well.

Part of the problem that Rome had was that it was polluting its own gene pool with southern races whose adrenalin levels were higher, whose seratonin levels were lower, and whose control over the emotions was as a result less. The same kind of jackasses we see in the video of ragheads in the Moslem world now, was going on from Carthage to Alexandaria with mobs on the rampage. One of which burned down the famous Library. Commodus, of all people, hadda call out the legions to stop the followers of Bishop Arian from butchering the followers of Bishop Athenasias in Carthage.

The Christians murdered far more of their fellow Christians than the Roman emperors ever did. So- the hypocrisy and bullshit from the pulpit we see now has always been there. I dunno what moral standards the wiccans will end up with, but they wont be hypocrites, which will facilitate a higher degree of sanity.

As for their magical thinking, another aspect of that, such as with Tarot, is to organize their intuitive insights into what is going on. Astrology likewise has a whole nomenclature to discuss the behavior of normal, rather than pathological, people. Anyone who knows astrology knows why I value my Scorpio friends, and fear my Scorpio lovers. And since I am a double Leo, they understand how I have the balls to take Scorpios to bed. Psychology and Psychiatry remain utterly clueless to issues like this.

Magical thinking from primitive times on has always been assumed to be some form of communication from some other level of being. The problem with prophetic vision however is the lack of understanding of the context. We see this in the experience of deJevu. When initially seen in the dream, it makes no sense, and is quickly dismissed as meaningless trivia. Apulesius reports the vision to us with no clue that he ever expected to see it later. Kinda like looking at a film trailer, but those are selected to tweak our interest. The Isis cult got some mileage claiming it could interpret dreams. But even back then, whitefolks knew the Egyptians were slimy scam artists.

Perhaps you recall how "Eastern Rug Merchant" usta mean "Used Car Dealer". But its hard to sort out how much is scam, and how much is intuition, and how much is some form of cosmic consciousness. I back away from all this cosmological veracity crap and look at it from a purely sociological & economy standpoint. A renewed faith in the Native European Great Earth Mother, aka Gaia, synergistically works.
1- White women are taking over the power structures, and doing it even in areas where whites are not the majority. Even if not elected, they do it by marrying into the power elites. The sons of white women now rule many non-white cultures.

2- The transnational global market does not look like Jehovah and his heavenly host, but a peer-to-peer system of separate, pagan powers that are just trying to get along in an organic dynamic fashion. Gaia, like all natural mothers, does not rule Her progeny, but sets them free to fulfill their own destiny.

3- the Right brain creativity and appeal to intuitive relationships is where the money is. The left brain use of force is history.

[Shahrazad]

the Right brain creativity and appeal to intuitive relationships is where the money is. The left brain use of force is history.

All right! (to the rule of right brainers).

[daybrown]

the Right brain creativity and appeal to intuitive relationships is where the money is. The left brain use of force is history.

All right! (to the rule of right brainers).

Shuss! dont rub it in. Let them go on with their violent video games. Make sure you record any football games they might miss. Use your intuitive understanding of where they are coming from to identify the movies they mite like to waste more time on.

But buy a rifle and learn to shoot it. Fine muscle control will benefit, whereas a hand gun is so inaccurate, that dont matter.

[Alex Jacob]

As to a European White Mother Goddess---I think you are dreaming more than anything. It's not that I don't like the dream, it is sort of pretty. It's just that it isn't really happening. Also, though women are allowed middle-management positions, and a more feminine ethic is good for the corporate structure (as has been mentioned in other places), I don't see any significant take-over by women, and am unconvinced that anything of this sort is really happening. It is fun and useful to engage in intellectual romanticism from time to time, to see where such formulations might lead, but it is more sober to refer to things 'as they really are' and not, perhaps, how we'd like them to be. Quite often, from what I have read so far, you jump to wild conclusions that seem entirely speculative, but that do not necessarily have a basis in reality. It is a style useful for making subjective, personal points, whatever they may be, but it is not so convincing, as I see things.

"Stoicism would not support slavery either. Christianity did. The hypocrisy we see in Christianity was there from day one."

You could make this sort of claim time and time again, and in a sense you'd be right, and you would forever justify your (I am supposing) contempt for Judeo-Christian traditions. And this sort of broad statement against (in this case) the Christian tradition or force in history is often made. It is these sorts of statements that, often, become the motive for separating oneself from one's own traditions. It is a classical psychology of ressentiment, it seems to me. All traditions, and all people, will demonstrate their essential hypocricy, either now or later. There is no person, group, religion or philosophy that is not susceptible to hypocricy. The important thing, I think, is to recognize what is positive in each tradition, and to be able to see and describe what are their positive achievements. I am not at all inclined to cast away what are extremely valuable ideas and teaching, practices and modalities, simply on a whim. Or rather, I went through that, and then, more soberly, began to realize that my own tradition (not only Jewish, but Judeo-Christian, philosophical and Occidental) has many very profound elements, and in many areas trumps other traditions for depth and intensity. Stoicism and the Goddess tradition of Europe may have many nice features, I certainly have been impressed, but in no sense could it be represented that either of those is superior to the Judeo-Christian-Western Philosophical-Scientific traditions. But why polarize it in this way? Augustine was a stoic in his way, and was certainly influenced by stoicism. I am not sure what it is you are really selling, but if you'd tell me I might want to buy...

"A renewed faith in the Native European Great Earth Mother, aka Gaia, synergistically works."

Sure, why not? It is a meaningless statement, with no basis in reality, so why not agree with it? I spent a good part of the 8os with women exploring these 'traditions' (or inventing them, which is also valid), and have read considerably on the subject, so none of this is foreign to me, and in my own way I participated, always with reservations. But from where I stand (living in Latin America), and certainly not in any even remote sense in the US, do I see any evidence of this as a movement either in thought or faith. It is all far to vague, your assertion.

What moves the world, it seems to me, is clear ideas and ideas that can be articulated clearly. The traditions that handle ideas, by and large, are masculine traditions. I don't see that this is changing or that it will change, and I repeat, I see little evidence that 'women are taking over', not in substantial ways. And even if it were true, it could all be reversed rather quickly.

"The transnational global market does not look like Jehovah and his heavenly host, but a peer-to-peer system of separate, pagan powers that are just trying to get along in an organic dynamic fashion. Gaia, like all natural mothers, does not rule Her progeny, but sets them free to fulfill their own destiny."

It is a clever idea, a clever presentation of an idea, and reflects some truths, but I could also suggest it is a little sophistic. I think that this presentation is supposed to support your ideas about a European Goddess who is now emerging as against "Jehovah and His Heavenly host'? But the fact is, the force that divided the world into regions in the post-war era, and has been working to establish an order, is more like Jehovah with his heavenly host than the peer-to-peer Gaia model you propose. What you are saying obfuscates, it seems, rather than illumines.

But what you say about Gaia and 'natural mothers', as opposed to a ruling father who sets down a law, is interesting. Getting involved with Jewsih philosophical and ethical traditions, I mean in a serious or even semi-serious way, is very challenging, especially to those of us (like myself) who are very 'assimilated'. The Jewish intellectual traditon is very, very strict, and very very sober. I am thinking. say, of Abraham Herschel who I respect a great deal. It seems to me that this tradition, in a very fatherly way, continually asks you to stop babbling and to demonstrate in what tangible way your understanding of ethics molds your behavior, what tangible things you do. It doesn't care about Goddesses rising from the sea or any mystical nonsense, but it asks you just how you connect with the the real world. It is a very exacting tradition and it is not for everyone. I see this as a very masculine focus. You always have to answer to God when you go inside the Jewsih tradition (Judeo-Christian) and it is different from a tradition where, like with a natural mother, you are let loose to explore, and all exploration is 'valid'.

For me, after so many twists and turns, I choose 'duty' over personal will. Mom says its okay to go out and play for as long as you want, but dad wants to know what you actually accomplished. In the end, I prefer to hang with dad rather than with mom.
_________________________________________________

Nor have I ever come across references that Augustine tried to set himself up as a God. A reference?

[daybrown]

We do seem to sit at opposite poles Alex. Latin culture is way behind the curve on the transition to matriarchy, whereas I sit in an obscure portion of the US which has been way ahead. I've no way to evaluate the speed of the transition. The conversion of the Roman empire in the mere 60 years from Constantine to Justinian was driven by the top, but what's going on now is going on unseen in the grass roots, and then, only in the lushest pastures.

But the rise in commodity prices is irrefutable, and evidence of over grazing the global commons. And what power elites have always done when real economic expansion stops- rather than cutting back to buy time to look for new solutions, is to merely increase their exploitation of all lower classes so as to keep the level of their own consumption rising to give the continued illusion of progress.

But again, I cant tell where we are in that evolution; never has there been such a rich middle class, so nobody really knows how much more can be squeezed out of them. At some point, the shortage of their resources hinders their ability to support the system, and there are increasing infrastructure failures. There have always been natural disasters, but repeatedly we see the responses become less timely and less adequate until some relatively minor problem blows way out of proportion, there is a cascade of failure, and systemic collapse of the entire system.

At this point, the cosmology which the power elite used to support itself is discredited and a new mythic narrative to explain what happened is formulated while the bastards are being dragged out to be shot. The Byzantines exemplify the one alternative- to shed the less profitable provinces, withdrawing the garrisons to reposition them to defend a smaller border. Eventually, the border was the walls of Constantinople. Yet, within that border, for hundreds of years, life went on as it always had for the middle and upper classes.

Right now, as far as the New World Order is concerned, Africa does not look like a profitable province, the garrisons of the power elite have been withdrawn, and the dubious output of African gold, diamonds, and oil, is keeping their prices up. But I've read that there's also another African mineral, used in the manufacture of computer chips, that were it cut off, it'd devastate that industry. I really dunno. But this is an example of systemic failure, that the power elite failed to recognize the importance of some obscure resource.

Then too, we have the dynamic that might makes right. When the first Anatolian cities emerged with agrarian support, the threat from nomadic war bands was eliminated; because of their more primitive lifestyle, they were limited to less than 300, and could never put more than 100 warriors in the field. Which would not do to attack a city of thousands. Hodder does not realize it in his report of the artistic sensibility and shifts in resource management in "The Leopard's Tale", but we can see matriarchy gradually taking over in a transition that lasted less than 200 years, concurrently with the introduction of ceramics. The technology changed everything.

This golden age of peace lasted until the Late Bronze Age, which is when Mallory, "In Search of the Indo-Europeans" reports that the first large scale Aryan war bands emerged. Again, techology. In this case the writing needed to do inventory which was needed to handle the logistics. And that issue continued up until Von Clausewitz wrote the final word on it in "On War".

Napoleon stretched the science of logistics a little to far going to Russia. And since that peak, the casualty rate has been under continual decline. The graveyards of the primitive hunting tribes show 25% of the men died of battle wounds. During the American civil war, the death rate dropped to more like 10%, and much of that was due to disease. Likewise WWI led to the global flu pandemic, but even if you add that in the rate dropped again. During WWII, on both sides, the rate was 2-3%, and now both Gulf Wars, I & II, that progression has continued.

The current total, 3800 for 4 years, less than 1000 per year, with 200,000 in the field is, 0.475%. which is little more than the death rate from traffic or all other accidents in the military. Despite what it says in the media, bravery is no longer an issue. women are increasingly effective, and in terms of dealing with a local civil population, vastly more effective. They can talk with the village women and get cooperation that men cannot. But again, this kind of thing is going on underneath the reports seen in the media, which wants to depict soldiers as brave, and just loves the juicy video of shit blowing up.

Then too, we have the new business model It is telling the Bill Gates operated like a classic robber baron. He did not code the Disk Operating Sysem, but bought it for a pittance from the hacker who produced it. He was also lucky in that when IBM honchos went to the programmers who had CPM, they were insultingly made to cool their heels, so they went to talk to Bill Gates. Since I got a comp sci minor in 1971, I've kept up with the business, and saw very early on how Gates operated in unethical and even illegal ways to build his monopoly. Classic alpha male thinking.

But now, when geeks have a project, they work it out in email, and when they think its ready, setup an office with global communications, Fed-X, UPS, USPS, and then... find some women to run the office. Commonly the thing is a small business cooperative; the women interact with the suppliers and customer base and tell the geeks what the developmental issues are. they manage the hotline, accts payable, payroll, receiving, shipping and receiving, What's missing in all this? Guys like Bill Gates. There is no alpha male CEO. The innate communication skill of women translate the needs of the real world to the geeks, and then turn the geekese into real world solutions. The whole thing is organic, and it also goes on under the radar.

The military culture and the corporate culture are both changing along with the more visible selection of women in political leadership. Latin America is way behind the curve on this, so I dont blame you for not seeing it. But conversely, in my neck of Ozark woods, me, and many other dudes have been frontmen, sent to interact with the local powers that be at the behest of the women who actually control the real estate or other assets at issue. The need for my services in that regard has been declining expect for where my technological expertise is important. There've only been a couple times in recent years when I hadda take another man to a government office because I knew who had to be dealt with.

All of the older women remember back when you could not get the system to respond unless you had a penis. The only call for that now, is when I am sent to speak with men who use welding torches or soldering irons. And while I grant you that it is a very ambiguous situation, with global electronic communications that can no longer be controlled by central authority, things can change really fast. Course, one of the reasons we read postings in places like this is to watch out for warnings before the mass media figures out what is coming down.

Group think being what it is, the mandarins never realize there's a problem til the bricks in the palace wall start flying over it. Now, since the rise of the war bands Mallory talks about, we've had 5000 years of rule by the warrior class. Disempowering those bastards has been messy. But they have nukes and WMD now, and if we want to survive, we dont have a choice in the matter. Women are the only alternative.

[Alex Jacob]

These are some pages that came up with a search, 'matriarchy in world politics'. I am sure you could find all sorts of stuff out there in cyberspace:

The Matriarchy Spiel
More of it
...and still more
An Alternative
______________________________________________________

I know a certain number of women who share these romanitic ideas and ideals about the matriarchal possibility, and they also use all sorts of romantic science to 'prove' their points, and when you throw a wrench back at them, and suggest that it may be little more than wishful thinking (your 'magical thinking', Herr daybrown?) they get a little pissy, a little sad, and they seem to take a step back from you as if you are fallen, as if you still serve the wrong side.

You mention a few interesting things: one that there are times when cultural changes occur very quickly, over the course of half a century, just a couple of generations. In the post-war era we have certainly witnessed an astounding gamut of changes, if not in fact then in idea. It is astounding what we have been exposed to, what we have considered.

I don't really have the means to argue point by point your many (somewhat vague) assertions, so all I can do is suggest that you may be exaggerating, and that you might be spending too much time with 'the ladies' and have come under their influence ('The ladies' who councel the New Commandant in the story In the Penal Colony, is my attempt to be humorous, but also to connect these assertions of yours to Nietzschean ressentiment, and the way it functions). You say that you cannot 'blame me', here on the southern frontier of the Great Empire, that I do not notice the trends you describe, and my dear sir, I certainly don't blame you either, and I certainly DO notice them, and they disgust me. Not because I don't believe in 'cooperation' or some progressive values, or see the need for it, but because I am not at all interested in this general culture that has arisen over the last few decades in North America (and possibly in Europe), where women have been given such extraordinary power by disempowered men, through a process of disempowering men. (But as I said, all this can change very quickly, and I think it will). The reason men became disempowered, of course, is because men dropped the ball (to speak extremely broadly), and women successfully networked among themselves to tremendous advantage during a very turbulant time. Trust me, I saw it all, given that my mother was very active in the women's movement in the Bay Area in the 70s as I was growing up. Additionally, in the 80s as I said I had many women friends who were, if you will, on the cutting edge of some of these new formulations.

It is not so much that I see things differently, it is that (to use a magical term, a Castanedian term) I intend things differently. I absolutely do not want to, and refuse, to simply hand over (my) power to women, not in the way that this story runs (and it is a narrative, less a fact, but a story, even a comic book), and therefor make every effort to resist it. And given the opportunity will happily share information about protecting assets, for example, and defining oneself as a man and not as a female man or a woman-man, but not necessarily in a reactionary sense, but in a proactive way. When men demonstrate their masculinity, women generally fall into line, but men have to redefine a correct masculinity. If I am in that process, trust me, it means there are many of us who are doing the same thing. (And this is why I deride openly some of these ridiculous formulations of the GF cult: you have to go much farther than mere romantic escapism and boyish anger---well, there is so much to say about this and I have said it in other places. So much hinges in self-education and this is a long and hard process).

I think men have a role and will always have a role in culture and that it represents a weakening in man's culture if they step away from their responsibilities, and in so many ways they have. (I would identify this as a 'disintegrating influence'). But this does not mean, in no sense does it mean, that women are therefor qualified to rule. It is an absurd assertion. And knowing what I know about women, they should not be given rulership positions, and their power should be limited despite what PC formulations have to say on the matter. I know, I know, that is a tough message, but its what I think.

Instead, it is men who must rally themselves and discover a true base for their own power; they have to ask themselves some very, very important questions, and they have to answer them. In this sense, I hold to an old Confucian idea: order comes to the world when a man behaves like a man and a woman like a woman. When each sex, as a role, fulfiills its essential 'mission', society moves toward order. If it happens that these roles are upset, it is a symptom of disorder and little good can come from it.

[daybrown]

The matriarchic websites are fluff bunnies. agreed; what they outline will never work. Its real simple.

There are two ways to control the behavior of men: sex or violence. Pick one. The use of violence by the warrior class has led to the continual development of ever more powerful weapons so that we now have nukes and WMD and they cant even protect their own asses, much less the rest of us. What the fuck do we need them for?

Ok. that leaves, instead of the negative reinforcement of violence, the positive reinforcement of sex. When the women ran things, they did it like the madam of a brothel. They protistuted their girls as soon as the girls were able to respond sexually. Do you see that idea in any of these matriarchic women's power websites?

But the power behind organized perversion is enormous. And power still makes might, and might still makes right. The most striking example I know of is when the Sarmatians gave Roman General Proculus 100 virgins if he'd take his legions all the way across Turkey to attack the Persians for them. It was an offer he could not refuse. I expect the Sarmatians got the girls back, and for that, his five legions kicked ass on the Persians so bad that it was 50 years before they tried again.

Each virgin saved the lives of thousands of young Sarmatian men who would have died in battle. Would any king have figured this out, or had the moral authority to make the offer?

Matriarchy is NOT utopia! The women in it do not get to engage in romantic fantasies with powerful handsome men dealing with all their problems and taking care of them forever. No; they all get to take their turns in the brothels. There will be astute business women who will see some opportunity from some creative geek effort, and arrange for the geeks to get laid to keep them motivated. All the geeks get is room, board, and pussy. And that's all they care about. The Chinese dont even work that cheap, and the women running operations like this will get filthy rich.

The fluff bunny feminists just dont get it, and will be ranting at the male power structure, while the witches host safe sex orgies to motivate the men to get things done for their business ventures, all going on out of sight. Dont ask, dont tell.

[Alex Jacob]

"Matriarchy is NOT utopia! The women in it do not get to engage in romantic fantasies with powerful handsome men dealing with all their problems and taking care of them forever. No; they all get to take their turns in the brothels. There will be astute business women who will see some opportunity from some creative geek effort, and arrange for the geeks to get laid to keep them motivated. All the geeks get is room, board, and pussy. And that's all they care about. The Chinese dont even work that cheap, and the women running operations like this will get filthy rich.

"The fluff bunny feminists just dont get it, and will be ranting at the male power structure, while the witches host safe sex orgies to motivate the men to get things done for their business ventures, all going on out of sight. Dont ask, dont tell."

And I thought we were having a serious conversation...

[Shahrazad]

I think daybrown is right. If matriarchy happens, it's going to be based on prostitution.

I'd rather have patriarchy.