The distress of rape

[hsandman]

The idea is indeed insane, but would you really expect better from the living being who wrote it?

I have met many women who have been raped. I myself have been a victim of rape. What I have never met is a woman who enjoyed being raped. It just doesn't happen, folks. Nothing is more humiliating for a woman than being raped. It is sheer torture.

For those of you who don't know it, there's a huge difference between kinky sex and rape.

Perhaps because some men are so undiscriminating about who they fuck, and would perhaps welcome being fucked by any female, even non-human ones, they imagine that females must enjoy rape.

-

Guilty as charged. ;-) "I should be so lucky" did enter my mind... uhh, I am leaving this thread alone. Ewww....

[Unidian]

Yeah, you should be "so lucky" as to have all your rights violated by force in the most personally humiliating way possible.

For your sake, I hope you are never "so lucky."

[Shahrazad]

Sandman, please visit the Sexual Agression thread at Genius Forum, and answer the two last questions I ask Dan there.

[hsandman]

Edit: -nt-

[Pye]

Dan, there is no reason more or less why rape might deserve a greater moral outrage; most of what I'm reading here is directed at the willful stupidity of the comment and the atmosphere into which it lands.

Vicdan, once again, does excellent analogy with the force-fed chocolate - at least as close as one can get to analogizing the sexual, itself a given-over, unconscious driven thing.

skipair, as usual, is in breeding-management mode. Not only does he want to manage when and how women do want it; he wants to lay claim to when they don't want it, too; reinterpreted to suit his own tastes ("nasty"). As an aside, I think with all males in my experience, some degree of roughing, grabbing, haste and animal excitement seems necessary for them to be interested, involved, and to follow-through. Slow things or sensuous things do not sustain them, even if they might arouse. There is something most necessary to the complex human psychology that means to raise the pitch - and in conscious humans - means to touch the ("dirty") animal core with pleasure. And I think in a strange way, humans sense the degradation in their relentless need; I am certain that men do, given the ways they put penis-life at the foreground of their comedy (in the foreground of everything; sublimated bullets and spears and projectile balls inclusive).

It's bad faith, though, to mistake the desire to please with the choice of pleasure itself, as you do, skipair - poor young victim of the ready-porn age - of the hyper-breeding management ideology of patriarchy. Like a farmer all the time nervous of what his sheep are doing in the fields. Men cannot seem to stop obsessing about what she's doing; who she's doing; why she's doing it and when, and at bottom, you are redundant to her own program, paddling furiously to stay abreast [I think I'll claim that pun].

Sexual imposition is particularly pernicious, simply in what it touches of the person, how much it touches of the person, and how readily any human is touched there anyway; how much of our identity resides there; how many of our rhythms reside in auto-pilot there; how closely the act is related to what we feel and call as love. Done against our will, without the power of our own desire, perhaps with life-threatening weapons along with that - along with all that is so tangled in human sexuality - then, rape deserves to be considered under a harsh light distinct to it, like anything deserves to be looked at.

[daybrown]

Dont masochists enjoy rape at some level? There are all kinds of crazy men and women. I'm not here to say what kinds dont exist. In "The rape of the Sabines", when the Romans burst into town, some women ran and hid. But some, discontented with life with their parents or families, were not so careful to hide, and got snatched up.

IOW, a free ticket to a new life, that if it didnt work out, they mite flee that too, and return saying they were kidnapped and raped. Pleaze. i dont see how to evaluate the conditions they left, nor those they later found themselves in. Nor how to evaluate the sex games that sometimes get out of hand.

I only had a woman ask me to rape her once, and while I did, I thot it was juvenile, and still do. But there's a lotta people out there who never grew up, living fantasy lives of one kind or other. There are a lotta women who want to dress like hookers, and lotsa guys who are too stupid to pick up on the difference from those who are. And lotsa date rape charges that come out of it.

No wonder rapidly increasing numbers of young men are turning to porn. Hustler now even has an ad for an electrically operated vaginal cavity, the flip side of the battery dildo. Lotsa guys are satisfied with relationships no deeper than the piece of paper they are looking at, and lotsa young women are wondering where all the men, who should be paying attention to them, are.

So, they dress ever more ostentatiously. And every time there's a rape charge in the media, there are more men who consider staying home with the porn so they dont risk getting arrested. They dont have the social skills to relate to women anyway. And for young women, increasing percentages of the young men who are available, are out there cause they are too stupid or too insane, to evaluate the risk of litigation over sexual contact.

Desperate for relationships, young women have been running increasing risks of being in the hands of men they dont know very well who turn out to be abusive, if not rapists.

[Katy]

By the act of asking you to rape her, it is not rape, but role play. Big difference.

[daybrown]

By the act of asking you to rape her, it is not rape, but role play. Big difference.

So long as those involved are rational. The problem is the irrational. Rapists are not rational enuf to be deterred by long prison terms, but only motivated to murder their victims in order to hide the crime.

If you want to end rape, then look at those cultures which had rape rates of zero.

[Dan Rowden]

Dan, there is no reason more or less why rape might deserve a greater moral outrage;

And yet it universally does, even amongst thinking people. I'm interested in the reason for that.

most of what I'm reading here is directed at the willful stupidity of the comment and the atmosphere into which it lands.

All this for one willfully stupid comment? I don't accept this at all. The posts in the other thread that started this one say something entirely different. But frankly no-one is going to admit to anything so it's probably pointless me even speaking about it.

As an aside, I think with all males in my experience, some degree of roughing, grabbing, haste and animal excitement seems necessary for them to be interested, involved, and to follow-through. Slow things or sensuous things do not sustain them, even if they might arouse. There is something most necessary to the complex human psychology that means to raise the pitch - and in conscious humans - means to touch the ("dirty") animal core with pleasure.

I think this demands greater status than a mere "aside"; I think it's very important. A man's sexual physiology - and the psychology intertwined with that - is very much built around excitement and pitch. Sex for a man must be climactic; he's designed that way. The proverbial "quickie" symbolises his sexual nature in somewhat stark terms. Women are designed this way too for that matter - at least responsively - but women have variance in scope for pleasure not really available to a man (and which may follow certain cultural trends). For a man to match her in that regard all manner of contrivances, which aren't necessarily pleasurable in themselves, have to be introduced. In general terms a man must orgasm to have enjoyed sex and feel fulfilled. If a man does not orgasm he will often experience all sorts of psychic disturbances that are well cataloged. It may be physiologically beneficial for a woman to orgasm (for reproductive purposes) and maximise her sexual pleasure, but she doesn't need to in order to enjoy and feel fulfilled by a sexual encounter. Some women don't care or even want to be orgasmic; some women don't actually enjoy orgasm. This variance just doesn't exist in men to any extent worth noting. And now I have to stop because in formulating that paragraph I've lost exactly where I was going with this........ I'll be back.

And I think in a strange way, humans sense the degradation in their relentless need; I am certain that men do, given the ways they put penis-life at the foreground of their comedy (in the foreground of everything; sublimated bullets and spears and projectile balls inclusive).

There's probably some truth to this. Male genitalia based humor does seem to have a certain self-parodying dimension to it. But the foreground of everything? No, I'm sorry, it's women who see phallic symbols everywhere, not men.

It's bad faith, though, to mistake the desire to please with the choice of pleasure itself, as you do, skipair - poor young victim of the ready-porn age - of the hyper-breeding management ideology of patriarchy. Like a farmer all the time nervous of what his sheep are doing in the fields. Men cannot seem to stop obsessing about what she's doing; who she's doing; why she's doing it and when, and at bottom, you are redundant to her own program, paddling furiously to stay abreast [I think I'll claim that pun].

The sexes are obsessed with each Pye, you know that.

Sexual imposition is particularly pernicious, simply in what it touches of the person, how much it touches of the person, and how readily any human is touched there anyway; how much of our identity resides there; how many of our rhythms reside in auto-pilot there; how closely the act is related to what we feel and call as love. Done against our will, without the power of our own desire, perhaps with life-threatening weapons along with that - along with all that is so tangled in human sexuality - then, rape deserves to be considered under a harsh light distinct to it, like anything deserves to be looked at.

This an another way of saying what I was looking for in the other thread when I asked about the differences between rape and other forms of assault. We are grotesquely sexual beings. A ridiculous amount of our identity is wrapped up in our sexuality. The degree of suffering we experience as a result of sexual forms of assault points distinctly, to each of us as individuals, to the degree to which we indeed do find our identity and worth in our sexuality. Part of the reason that I refuse to be party to hysteria - and I'm sorry it simply is just that - regarding our response to rape, is that I find our valuation and obsession with our sexuality utterly stupid. I see no reason for me to feel more sympathy for a rape victim than a robbery victim who has lost their precious valuables. But it's interesting that in stating this I will be automatically seen as somehow callous. We tend not to be very tolerant of value difference, even in our supposedly advanced, liberal, pluralistic society.

[Laird]

I see no reason for me to feel more sympathy for a rape victim than a robbery victim who has lost their precious valuables. But it's interesting that in stating this I will be automatically seen as somehow callous.

Somebody say "callous"? Funny, that's exactly the word that popped into my mind when I read this quote of yours in the sister thread:

So, following this logic again, if say, we were to suggest that the suffering of a rich guy who got robbed was partly his responsibility because of his own valuations, why can't we say that to women who are raped?

It's not that it's a false statement that makes it callous, because it isn't actually false. It's the implications of the statement and of similar statements that make it callous; as exemplified by these two quotes:

We are grotesquely sexual beings.

I find our valuation and obsession with our sexuality utterly stupid.

What you're implying in all of these statements is not just that you are entitled to your own devaluing of sexuality, but that it is a sensible, reasonable and healthy choice, and one that other people ought to consider seriously. I'm sorry, but I tend to believe that the value that human beings place on sexuality is, with rare exceptions, innate, and for good reason. Humans are creatures of love, and sexuality in its ability to provide extreme mutual pleasure, is one of the ultimate expressions of love available to us. Further, I suspect (although of course I can't prove) that you're fooling yourself if you believe that you would not find anal rape humiliating.

[Shahrazad]

Laird,

Further, I suspect (although of course I can't prove) that you're fooling yourself if you believe that you would not find anal rape humiliating.

Oh, I just love it when someone has the guts to state what is obvious.

[Dan Rowden]

It's not obvious, it's an outright lie. It's him projecting his own valuations and sexual identity onto me. Only egotists get humiliated by being assaulted. Getting anally raped would be nasty, no doubt, but I see no way that I could feel humiliated by the actions of another. I don't think either of you understand the psychology of these matters.

Tell me: why would either of you feel humiliated by being raped?

[Katy]

If you want to end rape, then look at those cultures which had rape rates of zero.

Name one.

[Unidian]

Dan,

I won't call you a liar, but I think you're totally ignoring the subconscious mind. There are things lurking there that have a million years of evolution behind them. Perhaps it's true that you would not feel consciously humiliated. But I'm not sure that means much, particularly in the context of such an overwhelming trauma. The subconscious mind is more active than ever at such times. My bet is that some ugly feelings would bubble up regardless of one's conscious attitude.

[Laird]

Tell me: why would either of you feel humiliated by being raped?

Because it is the ultimate form of disrespect. It would be sending the message: "you are so worthless to me that I am going to violate the most private part of your essence".

[Dan Rowden]

Tell me: why would either of you feel humiliated by being raped?

Because it is the ultimate form of disrespect. It would be sending the message: "you are so worthless to me that I am going to violate the most private part of your essence".

That's doesn't answer my question. You haven't told me why being disrespected, ultimately or otherwise, would cause you humiliation. I'm wondering if those expressing this view, at least with this terminology, even know.

[Laird]

You haven't told me why being disrespected, ultimately or otherwise, would cause you humiliation.

Because that's my definition of humiliation: being made to feel worthless and disrespected.

[Dan Rowden]

Dan,

I won't call you a liar, but I think you're totally ignoring the subconscious mind. There are things lurking there that have a million years of evolution behind them. Perhaps it's true that you would not feel consciously humiliated. But I'm not sure that means much, particularly in the context of such an overwhelming trauma. The subconscious mind is more active than ever at such times. My bet is that some ugly feelings would bubble up regardless of one's conscious attitude.

Well, there's no possibility for me to address that. One could day that about absolutely anything. Being assaulted in any way would be disturbing. Yet I've experienced that in a serious way, yet the next day went and played in an indoor cricket final. I'm talking humiliation here. I didn't feel that particular thing then, and I'm sure I wouldn't feel it now, whatever the form of the assault. That is not to say I might not feel other things residually. I was certain mightily pissed off back then.

[Dan Rowden]

You haven't told me why being disrespected, ultimately or otherwise, would cause you humiliation.

Because that's my definition of humiliation: being made to feel worthless and disrespected.

So, being disrespected is humiliating for you. Ok, why?

I won't even address the idea of feeling "worthless" because somebody assaulted you. I think that's a matter for a psychiatrist.

[Laird]

So, being disrespected is humiliating for you.

I didn't just say disrespected, I combined it with being treated as worthless.

Ok, why?

I already answered this: by definition.

[Jamesh]

The humiliation relates to the ego, and the persons self-valuation of their place in the herd hierarchy (generally depending on the degre of violence involved, folks don't cry rape if the person that raped them is above them in their valuation of the herd heirachy - they cry rape after the event when they no longer respect the person or see some sort of reward. If the reward is revenge or saving others then that is also partly related to advancing their perceived place in the herd.

The mental pain is real, but does not need to be. That the ego is principally a learnt effect does not diminish the mental pain to the person raped, as few would be aware of why they feel the way they do.

[Tomas]

It's not obvious, it's an outright lie. It's him projecting his own valuations and sexual identity onto me. Only egotists get humiliated by being assaulted. Getting anally raped would be nasty, no doubt, but I see no way that I could feel humiliated by the actions of another. I don't think either of you understand the psychology of these matters.

Tell me: why would either of you feel humiliated by being raped?

Dan has an honest argument here. The act of rape goes waaaayyyy beyond (a different league altogether) than "humiliation".

Take the word humble/humility... search the root of the word.

The head doesn't wanna go there (rape).

Has anyone ever reported sexual harassment in the workplace? Talk about being ostracized. The supervisor doesn't wanna get involved. The department manager doesn't wanna get involved. The schoolteacher doesn't wanna get involved. The principal doesn't.

How about Bill Clinton? His rape accusations date back to high school! They trailed him to Yale. On and on and on. Kathleen Willey was bumped on the same day her husband killed himself.

I'm not looking forward to riding with our local police department this Friday evening, but you know what - when the shift begins i'll be there! I don't know what i'm gonna be in for, probably another slow-motion riot, beatings, kids crying with no "home" to return to, homeless men with nothing but the clothes on their back, hookers with their breasts cut up...

The most i'm allowed to offer them is my card, carry some extra $$$ and slip them a few bucks out of sight of police. The cops gotta play zookeeper, gamewarden, the little people with no where to hide from the horrors. No money, no jobs, i run into doctorates, ex-professors, teachers, ex-models, bankers, war veterans, moms, dads, kids, kids and more kids, runaways, kids in diapers.

The educated-homeless tell me their stories how they once had it made...

98% never call me, it's always been like that, i keep track.


The hollow look.


Dan is on solid reasoning here, it's something other than humility, humiliation.

Humbled in a bad way.



Tomas (the tank)
VietNam veteran - 1971



.

[daybrown]

If you want to end rape, then look at those cultures which had rape rates of zero.

Name one.

Sparta was well known to have a rape rate of zero. Course, they didnt have nuclear family homes where there would be no witnesses. The Grandmothers owned the communal houses the women lived in. The boys, at age 8 were moved into the barracks, so there wouldnt be any big boys in the house to do any raping of little girls either.

It was said of Sparta that a virgin could walk from one end of town to the other and back with her virginity intact. This seems impossible, but there are some other curiosities. Sparta set the ancient record, of going for 600 years without the boot of a foreign soldier setting foot in town, yet it never had a city wall.

part of the reason that ancient armies were primarily motivated by the prospect of loot. Lycurgus sezied all the gold and silver in town and used it to equip the army. Soldiers all over the ancient world knew that Sparta was not worth sacking. Their architecture and furniture had a kind of 'Shaker' simplicity that didnt sell well either. We still use the word 'spartan' for sparse and barely functional settings.

The men slept in the barracks, under the supervision of the Ephors. So, neither were there any Spartan men about at night to do any raping. The only men let in the house, be they 'husbands' or otherwise, were under the watchful eyes of the grandmothers. No children were therefore ever sexually abused. Children were never left alone in the house with a man while mom went to work, shopping, or whatever. What do you spoze that does to the kind of adults that grew up this way?

What is it worth to you to reduce the child sexual abuse rate to zero? In any case, the Mosou of SW China, up in the SE Himalayas, still live communally like this. They dont have marriage as we understand it. women can be with any stud muffins that strike their fancy any time they like. But the kids are all raised together like in a large family with the grandmothers and aunts there for 24/7 childcare as needed.

http://www.pbs.org/frontlineworld/rough ... links.html is one link, which mentions the challenges as outsiders find out about them. They are getting electricity and satellite dishes too. No telling what that will do to their values.

The other thing to note about Sparta, was that at the outset, Lycurgus went thru town and picked out all the airhead sexy bimbos to send to the Helots for their pleasure, and kept only the bigger, stronger, and smarter women as Spartans. I dunno that you could make the Spartan system work if the women were not all smart.

[Laird]

Oh, and by the way:

I won't even address the idea of feeling "worthless" because somebody assaulted you. I think that's a matter for a psychiatrist.

That's because you're in denial of your humanity.

[Philosophaster]

I think of "humiliation" as a situation in which a person is made to feel powerless. When he struggles with all his strength but is still unable to get himself out of a "losing" situation.

So rape would definitely count as a form of humiliation, one of the most intense.