The Problem of Suicide

[Trevor Salyzyn]

Camus claimed that suicide was the only major philosophic problem. From the voluntary suicide of martyrs (Jesus, Socrates) to the senseless deaths in fanatical cults (suicide bombers included) and due to depression, it is a difficult problem to address at any time. Nietzsche brilliantly described both the appeal and importance of the voluntary death.

Now, be brutally honest. This is dangerous territory, but I can handle even the cruelest compliment. Given my erratic behaviour the last few days, what would be the reaction of philosophers here to my sudden death -- if it were found to be caused by messages I believed buried in Laird's writings?

[Imadrongo]

We would know that the Totality caused it to test our emotional attachment to you.

[Trevor Salyzyn]

Neil:
Therefore, if Laird so much as believes that your emotional attachment to me is something that needs to be tested, I would be compelled to kill myself.

Since I have not killed myself, Laird does not believe your emotional attachment to me is something that needs to be tested.

That is what you have said. You are therefore enlightened.

Add more words to your vocabulary if you wish to speak of enlightenment to more people.

[tooyi]

I wouldn't be too worried. Spitting a quantum faery tale into the fire, the moment of final commitment to the dagger is the point where we part ways, but you do not.

[Laird]

Given my erratic behaviour the last few days, what would be the reaction of philosophers here to my sudden death -- if it were found to be caused by messages I believed buried in Laird's writings?

Trevor, I like you. You seem to be a decent bloke. Admittedly some of your reactions to my recent satire have been a little extreme, but you obviously get a lot of value out of what Dan, David and Kevin preach, and whilst I happen to find a lot of what they say more worthy of ridicule than serious engagement, I can't deny that some of what they speak is Wise, with a (non-satirical) capital double-you.

I wouldn't hold myself responsible were you to kill yourself believing that it was at the behest of some (non-existent) secret message contained in my writings, because I had no intention of inspiring such behaviour in you, not even prior to the post where you questioned whether I seriously thought that I could get you to kill yourself: the serious answer is: no, not only did I fail to have that thought, but I was even disturbed by your mention of suicide in your commentary of Neitsche (sp?).

Basically, Trev: PLEASE, PLEASE: lighten up dude - it's satire! Yes, it's not just "funny" - I intended it to have a serious point, but I didn't intend it to tear your life apart. If that's what it's doing, and to be honest, from your reactions I suspect this to be at least partly the case, then perhaps what you've invested your life in is not as solid as you originally thought... perhaps you need to reconsider more traditional concepts denied by the barren teachings of QRS: the love of a woman is a wonderfully sustaining paradigm, and you seem to be a lovable guy. Not that I'm saying that you should necessarily "go out and get a girl", but at least consider the very real need to cater to your emotional needs. Because, much as QRS try to deny it as an ideal, the practicality is that man (and woman) is an emotional being.

Trev, I'm a little drunk right now so I'm going to be "femininely" honest with you: I really, really think that you're a top fella, and I'm sorry that you could ever, EVER, have read suicidal promptings into my words: to be honest that just fucks me up (yeah, I'm a pretty emotional guy when it comes down to it, and I have tears in my eyes right now). Dude, come on - when I said, satirically, "spiritual brother", I meant it non-satirically. We're both in this crazy fuckin' who-knows-what-the-fuck's-going-on-world together, both striving for something better. We both share similar problems, mine of which I'm not going to detail in public. I mean, come on, let's get over this you-vs-me shit and just be buddies. I'll quit the satire which is obviously bothering you and which seems to have run its course anyway, and you quit threatening to top yourself. Deal?

[Trevor Salyzyn]

Tooyi,

Spitting a quantum faery tale into the fire, the moment of final commitment to the dagger is the point where we part ways, but you do not.

Thanks. That's all I wanted to know. I'm perfectly fine being a tool now. (I'm lying, but you know that already...)

[Trevor Salyzyn]

Laird: I have a thing with satire. As in, I know how to use it from the point of view of someone who can identify latent beliefs from a mile away. (I wrote a Sutra of Trust a little while ago...)

I'm being very abusive of you, but that's because I actually think you have a very good belief set. If you didn't have to say it while doubting yourself, it would be spectacular.

Maybe I'll come visit y'all in Aussie-land so you can see first-hand what "bodhisattva" means. It would be a learning experience for you. Unfortunately, it wouldn't be much of one for me, but maybe I could bring along a girl... :)

[Trevor Salyzyn]

See, I was so in tune with your belief set that I knew that you wanted someone to insult you. You are so humble you can't even feel good about being the World-Honoured One!

[Laird]

I'm being very abusive of you, but that's because I actually think you have a very good belief set. If you didn't have to say it while doubting yourself, it would be spectacular.

Oh Trev, you're both too kind and too presumptuous: yes, I (naturally?) doubt myself, but I do not doubt my intentions and writings in recent threads: the targets of my caustic commentary deserved what they got.

Maybe I'll come visit y'all in Aussie-land so you can see first-hand what "bodhisattva" means. It would be a learning experience for you. Unfortunately, it wouldn't be much of one for me, but maybe I could bring along a girl... :)

I'm sure that I'd find that learning experience valuable. Oh, and, do bring the girl.

See, I was so in tune with your belief set that I knew that you wanted someone to insult you. You are so humble you can't even feel good about being the World-Honoured One!

I can't feel good about committing mockery when a real human being with real feelings is cast into the fires of hell by my words. Are you, then, now claiming to be the satirist?

[Trevor Salyzyn]

Even as I spat venom at you, it was because I was honouring your achievement. You saw through my mere words each and every time, until I finally was forced to admit that I was incapable of your achievement, which is a true one -- but which I realize now you can't feel the radiant heat from. But, you see, I have no kind feelings left. So feeling the kindness is not necessary for me to see it.

A man who cannot find any love for his father cannot find love for humankind, as deeply as he may dig. Humankind includes everyone; a single exception ruins Buddhahood. In another lifetime, perhaps someone else will find a way to love my father. Love of them is as close as I can get: human biology makes this shell of mine incapable of being more than a dog or woman. I was formed in a shape that will never achieve what you have achieved.

You are not my father, though. I cannot love all of humanity, but I am capable of loving you. But that sounds cheezy, so let's just say I honour you, as I cannot honour him.

If I ever find the wits to get married... well... you're the closest thing to a priest I know. So, I'll be sure that if I go to Australia, the girl'll be special. :)

[Laird]

Trev, I take heart in your honouring and to you I write that my achievement though (be I arrogant enough to say it) worthy, is more a matter of understanding-and-putting-into-effect than of real heartfelt practice. It is a very heady kind of "spirituality" that I have mockingly practiced and I must confess to you that in ultimate matters I am as bewildered as the next man, save that I respect. If there is one word that I would choose for eternity, it would be "RESPECT" (Ali G in da house), and that is why what you have written in this post means such a lot to me.

But, you see, I have no kind feelings left.

Oh, but this is not a finite vessel from which the contents may be poured until they drain: it is more like the Magic Pudding such that upon one's feasting, the dessert replaces itself.

A man who cannot find any love for his father cannot find love for humankind, as deeply as he may dig. Humankind includes everyone; a single exception ruins Buddhahood. In another lifetime, perhaps someone else will find a way to love my father.

Poignant words, and I am sorry to hear that this is the case.

Love of them is as close as I can get: human biology makes this shell of mine incapable of being more than a dog or woman. I was formed in a shape that will never achieve what you have achieved.

My achievement is a matter of perspective. Put yourself in my shoes, as a high-IQ (you have picked it: I am fearful of uttering those words and demand to be mocked for them, true though they may be), psychiatrically challenged young (at thirty years of age I hope that you will agree that the adjective still applies) man who has a deep commitment to all life, which commitment can be expressed in terms of love, and you will see how I might both find the views expressed on this forum to be disagreeable as well as how I might find it within my capacity to mockingly echo them as a means of expressing my dischord. My achievement is spiritual insofar as it expresses my discontent, and insofar as it points out personal truths in the guise of satire, but no further.

You are not my father, though. I cannot love all of humanity, but I am capable of loving you. But that sounds cheezy, so let's just say I honour you, as I cannot honour him.

Your father doesn't know what a gift he has passed up.

If I ever find the wits to get married... well... you're the closest thing to a priest I know. So, I'll be sure that if I go to Australia, the girl'll be special. :)

I would be honoured to practice the ceremony of love for (with) you, and you'd better believe that I'll give that girl every reason to stay.

[Trevor Salyzyn]

Laird,

I would be honoured to practice the ceremony of love for (with) you, and you'd better believe that I'll give that girl every reason to stay.

I'll see if she's up for that. She wants three kids, but I couldn't raise my father's grandchildren. I could definitely raise your kids.

[Laird]

Laird: I would be honoured to practice the ceremony of love for (with) you, and you'd better believe that I'll give that girl every reason to stay.

Trevor: I'll see if she's up for that. She wants three kids, but I couldn't raise my father's grandchildren.

Oh, please don't bring any obligations upon your step(?)mother.

I could definitely raise your kids.

I guess I'm going to have to be thinking of one of those artificial wombs in the near future, aren't I? :-P

[Trevor Salyzyn]

Oh, no no no. You got it wrong.

I'll tell the story quickly.

My mother cheated on my father. He deserved it. He moved 5000 miles away to Florida. Never calls. Remarried pretty fast. Wife died after 9 years. Remarried again almost immediately. Still living in Florida, still never calls. A carbon copy of the "Nevrmore" character (I actually called my dad out of the blue at midnight to see if he had been following this forum... my step-sister answered... he'd been in bed for hours).

I live with my mom.

Anyway, there's this girl I like. She's really really really nice. I can tell she adores me; and she knows I adore her. We hang out. I just can't move when there's the opportunity. But I never can. The thought of getting a girl pregnant (especially when my dad wants grandchildren!) gives me the fucking heebie-jeebies. But I don't hate kids. I'm not impotent or anything. Not unattractive, even after I gained weight from my meds. I'm not bad at talking. I just can't do the intimacy thing, not if it can lead to my dad's dreams getting fulfilled.

Geniuses are always bitching about how non-geniuses are breeding. Well, I'm not a genius. You are.

Do the math.

I'm perfectly willing to raise your hell-spawn, if you really can keep this girl around....

[Laird]

Anyway, there's this girl I like. She's really really really nice. I can tell she adores me; and she knows I adore her. We hang out. I just can't move when there's the opportunity. But I never can.

Hell, we're more alike than one might realise, not that I'm in your situation - except virtually and I won't go into that state of affairs - but in that I've been there once before. Might I say something to you Trev? Regret is the most weighty sin. In hangs around your neck for years, decades even. I don't know if I could even follow my own advice, but I suspect that my years of regret have taught me something: move when you *know* that it's right. That way you won't regret.

The thought of getting a girl pregnant (especially when my dad wants grandchildren!) gives me the fucking heebie-jeebies.

Luckily you have options that preclude pregnancy.

But I don't hate kids. I'm not impotent or anything. Not unattractive, even after I gained weight from my meds. I'm not bad at talking. I just can't do the intimacy thing, not if it can lead to my dad's dreams getting fulfilled.

Do you want kids? Are you capable of raising them well? Those are the only two questions that you need to ask yourself. Oh, I know that there are questions of overpopulation but I don't think that in the First World you have anything to fear there, except possibly limiting yourself to one or two kiddies. Forget what your dad wants - it seems that he already has.

I'm perfectly willing to raise your hell-spawn, if you really can keep this girl around....

That sounds like a pretty good deal actually. I'm loath to commit to the responsibility of children.

[Trevor Salyzyn]

I'm having tea with her on Tuesday I believe. I'll discuss it with her then. I think I know enough about you through what I know of "QRS" to offer a convincing argument. The mediator of the group; makes sure everyone's having fun.

[Imadrongo]

Am I missing something or is Trevor asking Laird to impregnate his girlfriend for him?

[Boyan]

Am I missing something or is Trevor asking Laird to impregnate his girlfriend for him?

That would be correct, yes.

[Laird]

I'm having tea with her on Tuesday I believe. I'll discuss it with her then. I think I know enough about you through what I know of "QRS" to offer a convincing argument. The mediator of the group; makes sure everyone's having fun.

Trev, please don't actually make that argument though. I don't want to usurp that role - it's yours to take. Really, like I said before - don't live in regret - and if you pass on your woman to someone else that's what you'll be doing.

[Trevor Salyzyn]

I could not bring her to Australia with me without giving her to you. Therefore, I'll bring my sister instead.

And now I have a reason to come back to Canada.

[Trevor Salyzyn]

If I wanted to enjoy myself, I'd bring my younger sister to Australia. Check her out on Facebook. You dig?

[Trevor Salyzyn]

So yeah, I hope you know the same hospitality goes out to you. If you ever happen across Canada, I don't have much wisdom, but I could certainly give you some food. You don't even have to beg, like the last world-honoured one.

[Shahrazad]

Trevor, I was worried about you yesterday. I'm glad to know you're going to be ok.

You're a cool bloke. I wouldn't mind introducing you to one of my girls.

If you allow me, I'd like to give some words of advice. Think of me as your cyber mother.

You need to find it in you to forgive your father. Not because he deserves it, but because you need to heal. You'll never be able to respect him, but you can forgive him. His behavior is caused, and he has no choice but to be a jerk.

I believe this will happen sooner or later; time heals all wounds. And you could make a good father. My brother has strong resentments about my dad not spending much time with us. That has led him to spend a lot of time with his own son. He is one of the best fathers I know. He just won't make the same mistakes our dad made. You won't either.

-

[Trevor Salyzyn]

Sher,

If you allow me, I'd like to give some words of advice. Think of me as your cyber mother.

I'll keep it in mind.

[Laird]

If I wanted to enjoy myself, I'd bring my younger sister to Australia. Check her out on Facebook. You dig?

Am I supposed to be looking at Athena L Salyzyn on your Facebook friends list? If so, then yeah, she seems cute from what I could see of her.

So yeah, I hope you know the same hospitality goes out to you. If you ever happen across Canada, I don't have much wisdom, but I could certainly give you some food. You don't even have to beg, like the last world-honoured one.

Cheers mate, I appreciate the offer. Likewise I have a bed in my spare room that's just waiting for your arrival.