People types

[Philosophaster]

Some people don't really have that much ambition.

But quite a few people want desperately to feel like they have done something great or remarkable. They want to take up a massive project, bring it to completion, and be remembered by history. Of the ones who want to do something great:

Some have both the talent and the willpower. They do great and remarkable things.

Others have the willpower but lack the talent. They live frustrated lives until they learn to accept that they're just not cut out for it.

Still others have the talent but lack the willpower. They can't stand the idea of putting in all the effort required.

Which kind of person are you?

[maestro]

But quite a few people want desperately to feel like they have done something great or remarkable. They want to take up a massive project, bring it to completion, and be remembered by history. Of the ones who want to do something great:

Till, a couple of years ago I had this longing, but after seriously dabbling with enlightenment style ideas (Buddhism and the bunch), such goals seem egoistical and delusional. Now I know that such longings were put in my head by the society and culture and have no great value.

[Jamesh]

Everyone is a combination of both.

For me the idea of putting in all the effort though, tends to win the contest.

IMO, my theories are not theories, but "near fact", but as a result of knowing my limitations, the effort required to present them in the form required to publish a successful book, would take a minimum of 5 years hard slog. I'd have to go to uni to learn the science, so that I could then logically show its limitations. As a non-scholarly person with a shit memory this would require an enormous effort.

[hsandman]

Still others have the talent but lack the willpower. They can't stand the idea of putting in all the effort required.

That would be me... :-(

I, start on all these big projects, but then something more exciting comes along, and I put the project on hold...indefinitely
:-(

<-I know what's wrong with that system, yet that's how it goes.

Sometimes, I just say: "meh" to it all, and watch bill hicks.

Edit: I think, it's time for me to spend more time in Oblivion...

[Shahrazad]

When I was young, I wanted to do something to be remembered by. But now I just can't be bothered. I grew into the unambitious type. I'm perfectly happy without having to achieve anything.

I suspect testosterone is what gives some people the strong drive to succeed.

[|read|]

Hmm. I started with every indication of having all the talent and all the willpower. Then the willpower was yanked from under me by 10-year period of serious and often suicidal depression, during which development of my talents gradually ground to a halt. Now that's over, and I'm left picking up the pieces. I'm currently deciding whether I should get back in the race so to speak, and face the ego-pounding uphill battle of catching up to people younger than me. Or take the easy path and stifle my ambition. Thing is, I'm not sure it's actually an easy path, any more so than cutting off your own hand. And would I ever truly be satisfied, without accomplishing anything notable? I know a few people who try to be, claim to be, and are still obviously disappointed with their pedestrian lives.

I'm not talking about accomplishing something for the sake of what others will think. I have my own ideas about what would constitute an accomplishment. I don't find this goals-are-pointless "enlightenment" convincing. To live a simple, unexceptional life is itself a goal. Whoever you are, you have goals, and whatever they are, somehow you acquired them. I don't see a lack ambition to accomplish things that take talent and willpower as enlightened at all. It may be what comes natural for some people, but for many others, it's a cop-out. I know the fear of failure only too well. You think you can escape by not trying, but it gets you in the end anyway.

[Pincho Paxton]

I want to understand everything, and not be on a planet with amnesia of my history. When I say my history, I mean the entire history of the Universe. I don't look at it as ambitious. I look at it as my most usefull attribute. I have the belief that I can find these things out better than anyone else, because I have not read of similar findings to my own, and I feel that there is much proof of what I have discovered.

I have talent, and willpower, but am yet to be proved right.

[hsandman]

Pincho: Check this site out.

We all are separate particles, and yet we are waves in the ocean that we call Universe too. You might be deluded and yet right at the same time... its all relative. =)


"Fight Club was the beginning, now it's moved out of the basement, it's called Project Mayhem." - Tyler Durden

===================

Tyler Durden: Guys, what would you wish you'd done before you died?
Steph: Paint a self-portrait.
The Mechanic: Build a house.
Tyler Durden: [to Narrator] And you?
Narrator: I don't know. Turn the wheel now, come on!
Tyler Durden: You have to know the answer to this question! If you died right now, how would you feel about your life?
Narrator: I don't know, I wouldn't feel anything good about my life, is that what you want to hear me say? Fine. Come on!
Tyler Durden: Not good enough.

[Cory Duchesne]

Some people don't really have that much ambition.

Not enough testosterone?

But quite a few people want desperately to feel like they have done something great or remarkable. They want to take up a massive project, bring it to completion, and be remembered by history. Of the ones who want to do something great:

I find that this is largely a male thing. Women who really get hooked on that sort of thing have high testosterone levels.

Some have both the talent and the willpower. They do great and remarkable things.

Driven by testosterone + relatively well developed higher brain functions

Others have the willpower but lack the talent.

Driven by testosterone + poorly developed higher brain functions

Still others have the talent but lack the willpower. They can't stand the idea of putting in all the effort required.

This is of course a very self serving and comforting thing to believe, but it may actually be true for some types.

I might have had the talent to be a musician, a novelist or filmmaker. I was involved in some projects that I think had a lot of potential, - - but my vision - or better, the message I wanted to get across was ultimately more suited for philosophy/spiritual teachings. Given where I stand now, I'm quite sure I never will seriously involve myself in art (especially music) ever again.

The more conscious I became as an artist, the more I realized art was pretty much superfluous, an emotional addiction that sustained vanity, fear and, to put it generally, egotism.

The effort required to be successful does irk me, not because I'm lazy, but because I realize the effort can be put to much more profound use.

[Cory Duchesne]

But to put it another way, the talents that I value the most these days, aside from philosophy - scientific inventiveness, engineering (genetic, architecture, or otherwise) I simply don't have the brain for. I have a good long term memory for events and facts, but I don't think I have a satisfactory working memory - the ability to deal with multiple tasks simultaneously. A person needs this to be a interesting scientist, rather than a menial one. My inadequacies may be do to an insufficiently masculinized brain - I'm still looking into it.

[Nick]

Some people don't really have that much ambition.

But quite a few people want desperately to feel like they have done something great or remarkable. They want to take up a massive project, bring it to completion, and be remembered by history. Of the ones who want to do something great:

Some have both the talent and the willpower. They do great and remarkable things.

Others have the willpower but lack the talent. They live frustrated lives until they learn to accept that they're just not cut out for it.

Still others have the talent but lack the willpower. They can't stand the idea of putting in all the effort required.

Which kind of person are you?

I think in all cases, willpower is the over-riding factor. Talent is something that can be practiced and cultivated. Although some are born with a bit more talent in certain fields than others, if one practices hard enough, i.e. has enough motivation, they can develop their talents beyond those of people who are "naturally" more talented than them. So unless someone has a debilitating disease or severe mental incapacity all one needs is the willpower to accomplish their goals. As for myself, I have enough talent and potential to succeed in anything from being a rocket scientist to a professional sports athlete, I just lack the motivation to succeed in such worldly endeavors. My only major motivations in life are to survive, maintain my health, and perfect my consciousness.

[Pincho Paxton]

Pincho: Check this site out.

We all are separate particles, and yet we are waves in the ocean that we call Universe too. You might be deluded and yet right at the same time... its all relative. =)


"Fight Club was the beginning, now it's moved out of the basement, it's called Project Mayhem." - Tyler Durden

===================

Tyler Durden: Guys, what would you wish you'd done before you died?
Steph: Paint a self-portrait.
The Mechanic: Build a house.
Tyler Durden: [to Narrator] And you?
Narrator: I don't know. Turn the wheel now, come on!
Tyler Durden: You have to know the answer to this question! If you died right now, how would you feel about your life?
Narrator: I don't know, I wouldn't feel anything good about my life, is that what you want to hear me say? Fine. Come on!
Tyler Durden: Not good enough.

The link is good, but the site is layed out terribly. They should call it NeedleInAHaystack.com.

[Jason]

I'd say I'm talent and willpower.

Unending determination, extreme singleminded-focus, risk-taking and self-belief probably play a big part in allowing many people to do great things. On the other side are people who are too "realistic", who focus on the idea that only one in a million people are capable of greatness so why would it be them, who see that aiming for the stars also means the chance of catastrophic failure so would rather chose a safe steady guaranteed paycheck and status, and who would rather tame and limit their dreams than risk the heartbreak of trying to reach them but falling short. The difference between a supposedly eccentric dreamer who dies an unknown and a brilliant successful innovator may not be all that different in some ways.

Yet I still don't believe that having such characteristics is always enough to achieve great things. Unfortunately(?) opportunity/luck can play a large part too. Take two brilliant inventors, each secretly and independently working on the same amazing world-changing invention, but essentially through sheer luck one manages to finish a few months earlier and file the patent before the other.

[Shahrazad]

Jason,

I'd say I'm talent and willpower.

Care to describe what great things you have accomplished? Will you be remembered 100 years after you die?

[hsandman]

The link is good, but the site is layed out terribly. They should call it NeedleInAHaystack.com.

Pincho:
The site was made by a guy who typed it out (html code) in a text editor. (notepad?) Old school. =)

[Imadrongo]

I'm somewhere in there.

If I really want something I can summon up the will power to accomplish it. However my problem is more of not really wanting anything, lacking goals.

It is much too easy to settle down into the "do nothing" "wisdom of the infinite" state like the geniuses here. "Perfecting one's consciousness" is doing nothing and just an excuse to exert no will power. Will power is deemed delusional.

[Ryan Rudolph]

Cory,

But to put it another way, the talents that I value the most these days, aside from philosophy - scientific inventiveness, engineering (genetic, architecture, or otherwise) I simply don't have the brain for. I have a good long term memory for events and facts, but I don't think I have a satisfactory working memory - the ability to deal with multiple tasks simultaneously.

Also, to be a productive scientist in society, you need to be slightly mediocre in mind. Many scientific discoveries are made accidentally as scientists are tediously working away at other things. From working in a science lab, I’ve noticed that you need to enjoy reveling in test results, numbers, doing similar experiments endlessly – honestly, I find the whole scientific process slightly boring and dull. It feels very inorganic, and rather robotic.

Personally, I’d like to see research faculties established for genius types to form think tanks, where they can discuss and brainstorm the latest technologies/science/innovations, with access to some affordable types of scientific equipment. And perhaps new useful ideas/theories could emerge out of something like that – who knows.

[Jason]

Jason,

I'd say I'm talent and willpower.

Care to describe what great things you have accomplished? Will you be remembered 100 years after you die?

I didn't actually say I'd accomplished great things(at least yet) I only said I have willpower and talent. I'd say I have accomplished things that are nowhere near world-changing but show that I can pull off impressive feats when I plow all my focus and determination into something. What I'm really thinking about here is my inventing, which is one of my greatest loves and which I'm not going to go into detail about for intellectual property related reasons. All I'm going to say is that I have proved my abilities to myself if no one else. I started with a dream, a vision, and with determination and willpower and talent I actualized that dream. I made it real. To me that is powerful and amazing, that is what I strive for, the making of what once was a dream into reality - shaping reality with my will.

My experience in doing this agrees with the idea of "one percent inspiration, ninety-nine percent perspiration." There are a lot of intelligent and talented people who could do this sort of thing, but it takes a hell of a lot of dedication and determination, and you start, and even get close to the end, with no guarantee of success or recognition or status. Most people just seemingly don't have the will or inclination to do it. Another difference may be in the intense single-mindedness, when your whole world is taken over by a single project, when you fill notebook upon notebook by your bedside with ideas and solved problems and possibilities.

I'd also like to add that what is considered a great and remarkable feat is subjective. Running 100m in 9.8s or kicking 100 goals a season or whatever is not all that impressive as far as I am concerned, whereas I think landing a probe on Mars is a great feat. The fact that some artist is world-renowned and a single modern art piece of his sells for millions is nothing compared to the fact that powerful CPUs are routinely and casually bought for a relatively paltry sum of money.

[Jason]

Also, to be a productive scientist in society, you need to be slightly mediocre in mind. Many scientific discoveries are made accidentally as scientists are tediously working away at other things. From working in a science lab, I’ve noticed that you need to enjoy reveling in test results, numbers, doing similar experiments endlessly – honestly, I have the whole scientific process slightly boring and dull. It feels very inorganic, and rather robotic.

I'm not hugely knowledgeable of this type of scientific work, but a considerable amount of it does seem to consist of what you've described. That's why I'm more interested personally in engaging in engineering and inventing. The difference is starting with a dream, a desire, a plan and then using determination, reasoning, problem solving and creativity to realize it VS what seems to be more blindly trying different things and then tripping over a new and unexpected result. The scientific type seems more aimless or at least diffusely aimed, and the inventing more specifically directed and goal oriented. Obviously that's simplified and there's also definitely some crossover between the two. I suppose it's a lot harder(if not almost essentially contradictory) to plan discovery of completely new things as in science, as compared to mainly working with known principles and mechanisms etc as in engineering and inventing. Anyway that's my relatively ignorant view of how it generally works.

[Ryan Rudolph]

Jason wrote:

I suppose it's a lot harder(if not almost essentially contradictory) to plan discovery of completely new things as in science, as compared to mainly working with known principles and mechanisms etc as in engineering and inventing. Anyway that's my relatively ignorant view of how it generally works.

Yes, but I think there should be university courses specifically set up for this aim. For instance: suppose you and I wanted to brainstorm and think about new possible ways to generate energy – A course could be created looking at every possible way man has created energy since early civilization up until this point, and scientific models could be used to examine the mechanics behind each method. And the course could consist of students gathering around to analyze the differences/similarities of each and speculate on future possibilities.

However, I’m sure that a course like that must exist somewhere in some college, but my beef with the whole system is how much time and money must be spent on undesirable courses as a means to be able to take a few upper level courses of interest. There is too much effort and perseverance in the modern academic system.

[Cory Duchesne]

But to put it another way, the talents that I value the most these days, aside from philosophy - scientific inventiveness, engineering (genetic, architecture, or otherwise) I simply don't have the brain for. I have a good long term memory for events and facts, but I don't think I have a satisfactory working memory - the ability to deal with multiple tasks simultaneously.

^ I really didn't articulate what I was trying to say very well here.

I actually find my strongest asset is my ability to visually size the picture up and see all the factors simultaneously, as opposed to linearly processing each factor piece by piece.

However, I think what makes a truly gifted intellect is the ability to take very holistic thoughts and process them in a linear sequence with other vast thoughts. For instance, I imagine a very good neuroscientist or geneticist will be able to see holistically, but also process large amounts of information sequentially. This sort of individual is 'whole brained', as they say. Presently, I personally do not feel capable of anything great in science and attribute it to flaws.

But like Nick and Jason were implying, one really can't know for certain what one is capable of, so if you feel the drive, you just have to go with it, pushing yourself as hard as you can and see where you end up.

Also, to be a productive scientist in society, you need to be slightly mediocre in mind. Many scientific discoveries are made accidentally as scientists are tediously working away at other things.

True. The ability to stick with a tedious activity for a long period of time may have a causal relationship to estrogen. I hear long distance marathon runners have higher estrogen levels than average - go figure. Scientists who labor menially doing tedious stuff, likewise may be similar to long distance runners. Someone like Freud, Einstein, Nietzsche, Kierkegaard and others were likely higher testosterone, given that their minds seem to just rip into the heart of reality and pull out it's guts.

"Discoveries" aside, if we're talking ingenious engineering feats, whether that's in computer technology, architecture, genetics, etc, then the effort is very goal directed and systematic. There may be a lot of menial trial and error stuff when it comes to testing out ideas, but you need to generate creative ideas to at least try out, and when they fail, something new emerges from the ashes.

It's hard not to suspect that the ideal human is very tolerant of menial tasks, but can also penetrate into the heart of matters as well as engage in imaginative flight. Often I hear the dichotomy expressed: "Visual simultaneous processeer VS. Linear sequential processor" The ideal human maybe be both.

From working in a science lab, I’ve noticed that you need to enjoy reveling in test results, numbers, doing similar experiments endlessly – honestly, I find the whole scientific process slightly boring and dull. It feels very inorganic, and rather robotic.

Estrogen I think explains how some are so tolerant of these conditions. It's just like long distance running. Very dull, but some people really like to be occupied with some tasks to keep the demons away.

Personally, I’d like to see research faculties established for genius types to form think tanks, where they can discuss and brainstorm the latest technologies/science/innovations, with access to some affordable types of scientific equipment.

You are free to discuss and brainstorm the latest technologies/science/innovations all you want....aren't you?

[Nick]

If I really want something I can summon up the will power to accomplish it. However my problem is more of not really wanting anything, lacking goals.

Beware socitities ability to make you feel lazy just because your life isn't dedicated to support it.

It is much too easy to settle down into the "do nothing" "wisdom of the infinite" state like the geniuses here. "Perfecting one's consciousness" is doing nothing and just an excuse to exert no will power.

I see society has already brain washed you into believing it is even possible to "do nothing". It should be glaringly obvious that anytime someone says "you do nothing", they are really saying you are doing nothing to support MY values and way of life.

[Shahrazad]

Cory said,

I hear long distance marathon runners have higher estrogen levels than average - go figure.

If this is true, I don't think I have any estrogen. I'm a very good sprint runner, but do aweful in marathons.

But, I'll see if I can "figure" your logic here.

(1) High estrogen is correlated with perseverance.
(2) Estrogen is a hormone that is found in higher doses in mentruating women.
(3) All women are unconscious.
(4) Unconsciousness is undesirable.
(5) By (1), (2) and (3) above, perseverance leads to unconsciousness, or at the very least, is a product thereof.
(6) Hence, perseverance is an undesirable trait.

Of course, I don't expect you to be smart enough to know what's wrong with this logic.

-

[Cory Duchesne]

Cory said,

I hear long distance marathon runners have higher estrogen levels than average - go figure.

If this is true, I don't think I have any estrogen. I'm a very good sprint runner, but do aweful in marathons.

But, I'll see if I can "figure" your logic here.

(1) High estrogen is correlated with perseverance.
(2) Estrogen is a hormone that is found in higher doses in mentruating women.
(3) All women are unconscious.
(4) Unconsciousness is undesirable.
(5) By (1), (2) and (3) above, perseverance leads to unconsciousness, or at the very least, is a product thereof.
(6) Hence, perseverance is an undesirable trait.

Of course, I don't expect you to be smart enough to know what's wrong with this logic.

-

Hey! I have no problem trying to poke holes in the woman philosophy, in fact, that's largely my intent when I dig into biological facts. I made what I thought was one of the more provocative threads against the woman philosophy a few months ago, and feel the thread didn't get nearly as much discussion as I thought it should have. Check it out here.

However, as much as I'd like to see you ladies get a break, I think the problem with estrogen might be that, on the one hand we commend 'perseverance', but on the other hand it might be reasonable to say that estrogen begets 'anti intellectual contentment' as opposed to what testosterone seems to do. Testosterone is associated with dissatisfaction and a drive to overcome. Estrogen seems to pacify.

However, I just did some searches on estrogen and couldn't really find much about what it does. Maybe mental inactivity, passivity and contentment have not much to do with estrogen after all. I'll get to the bottom of it eventually.

[Dan Rowden]

Cory said,

I hear long distance marathon runners have higher estrogen levels than average - go figure.

If this is true, I don't think I have any estrogen. I'm a very good sprint runner, but do aweful in marathons.

But, I'll see if I can "figure" your logic here.

(1) High estrogen is correlated with perseverance.
(2) Estrogen is a hormone that is found in higher doses in mentruating women.

Ok, let's stop there. It is my understanding that ultra fit athletes cease menstruating because of the effects of that level of fitness on their hormonal system. How that gels with the aforementioned assertion of higher estrogen in long distance runners I don't know. Marathon runners do appear to have less testosterone than other sportspeople because muscle mass inhibits oxygen flow and is therefore detrimental to endurance style sport.

Actually, I don't know why I'm saying this because I don't really care....