The Agriculturalist & the Metallurgist

[Tomas]

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Roman defeat in victory

Humiliation, decadence and the memento mori; how Roman mobs longed for a triumph

http://entertainment.timesonline.co.uk/ ... 004230.ece

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[Cory Duchesne]

Earlier I wrote:

I'm interested in imagining how 'the ruling class' as well as exploitation first came into existence.

My initial hunch was that the blacksmith played a key role in establishing the ruling class. I'm finally clear on what happened.

A few clever blacksmiths became proficient in smelting gold coins, popularizing 'money'. As gold currency became more popular and abundant, people gradually found their gold to be a burden as well as a danger to carry. They needed a safe place to store it. Again, the blacksmith had a key role to play. With his metallurgical skill, he proceeded to create a metal vault to store gold securely. People were soon knocking on his door, wanting to rent out space in his vault. The blacksmith gradually managed to earn a living using his vault as a rental business. That being said, I think it's pretty evident that the blacksmith was the seed of the banker. The blacksmith sprouted into a primitive form of banker. He eventually found himself writing out 'claim checks', which were receipts that served as 'representations' of the physical gold. These claim checks, or receipts, gradually became traded in the market as if they were actual gold. Hence, the birth of paper money. Paper money was much easier to carry than actual gold. This was only the beginning. Soon, the blacksmith, or, better, the banker, was giving out loans and charging interest.

The rest is history.

The birth of the ruling class involved the transformation of blacksmith into banker.

And the bankers, as we should all by now know, are the masters of the world.

[daybrown]

There's another scenario in Contant Battles, by LeBlanc. He sees a cycle where a set of primitive tribes, like say the New Guinea Highlanders, have frequent raids, with the upshot that 25% of the men die of battle wounds. A good way to stay in the stone age. But anyway, eventually, one chief gets lucky, his charisma builds, he's smart enuf not to be too oppressive, and ends up combining tribes into a clan.

Then clan leaders have at it, as at Ireland or Scotland, but its the same deal, some smarter dude gets lucky, and combines a set of clans into a nation. then nations into empire. Like China. The pattern is familiar, and goes all the way back to the stone age, before blacksmiths or much of any other kind of specialty. And of course, the pattern of system breakdown runs the gamut as well. Sometimes empires break into nations, and some nations break into clans, and all the way down to barbarism.

The Early Slavs, by Barford picks them up in the 5th century, moving into the devastated land between the Roman and barbarian tribes along the Danube and Rhine. the slave raiding and battles completely empties a region, which grows back up into brush like a clear cut. After 20 years, the brush is 20-30 foot high, and goes on for a hundred miles or more. It was Slav couples with the balls to move into this, dig out an earth bermed small cabin, with a very low roof line that would not be seen in the bush. they built large stone or clay ovens in one corner of the cabin which only had fires at nite so nobody who smelled smoke would come looking for it, but the thermal mass kept it warm all day.

But a generation later, the kids are grown, so now there are a few cabins there. 3 generations later, its a village. 5-10 generations later, hill forts begin to show up, which exist for decades or maybe a century, but then get abandoned. they didnt know about hygene, and colera or dysentery drove the survivors away... back to the bush in hidden cabins.

At one point, somebody got lucky, conquered or organized a vast set of these hill forts and formed the nation of Moravia. But unlike France, Germany, Russia, or Spain, the entire thing fell into civil war and conquest and disappeared from history. One thing you can pick up from Barford, is what does not make history. The people leave a failed or failing community to poineer in the boonies someplace, and leave only the hearths and dugouts of their cabins behind. I now understand how Slavs were despised cause nobody could organize them into a mighty army. The dudes would get fed up with the exploitation of the aristocracy and move back into the boonies.

[DHodges]

A few clever blacksmiths became proficient in smelting gold coins, popularizing 'money'. As gold currency became more popular and abundant, people gradually found their gold to be a burden as well as a danger to carry. They needed a safe place to store it. Again, the blacksmith had a key role to play. With his metallurgical skill, he proceeded to create a metal vault to store gold securely. People were soon knocking on his door, wanting to rent out space in his vault. The blacksmith gradually managed to earn a living using his vault as a rental business. That being said, I think it's pretty evident that the blacksmith was the seed of the banker. The blacksmith sprouted into a primitive form of banker. He eventually found himself writing out 'claim checks', which were receipts that served as 'representations' of the physical gold. These claim checks, or receipts, gradually became traded in the market as if they were actual gold. Hence, the birth of paper money. Paper money was much easier to carry than actual gold. This was only the beginning. Soon, the blacksmith, or, better, the banker, was giving out loans and charging interest.

This is very close to what happened, except is was the goldsmith, not the blacksmith.

[Cory Duchesne]

A few clever blacksmiths became proficient in smelting gold coins, popularizing 'money'. As gold currency became more popular and abundant, people gradually found their gold to be a burden as well as a danger to carry. They needed a safe place to store it. Again, the blacksmith had a key role to play. With his metallurgical skill, he proceeded to create a metal vault to store gold securely. People were soon knocking on his door, wanting to rent out space in his vault. The blacksmith gradually managed to earn a living using his vault as a rental business. That being said, I think it's pretty evident that the blacksmith was the seed of the banker. The blacksmith sprouted into a primitive form of banker. He eventually found himself writing out 'claim checks', which were receipts that served as 'representations' of the physical gold. These claim checks, or receipts, gradually became traded in the market as if they were actual gold. Hence, the birth of paper money. Paper money was much easier to carry than actual gold. This was only the beginning. Soon, the blacksmith, or, better, the banker, was giving out loans and charging interest.

This is very close to what happened, except is was the goldsmith, not the blacksmith.

Ok, fair enough, but the goldsmith was born out of the blacksmith. The former is a specialized version of the later. The goldsmith retained fundamental blacksmithing skills, hence his creation of a vault.

[daybrown]

Actually Cory, gold was smelted thousands of years before iron. Next came copper, but the big leap was when the transylvanian mines opened up. the Chalcocite there is contaminated with arsenic, so that when the copper is smelted you dont get copper, but arsenic bronze. the hardest by far of all the copper alloys.

Recently, archeology has moved from the great European cities to the rural areas, and they find that German villages all had iron foundries. This dispersal created real problems for the Romans, who preferred richer targets. The Slavs went them one better with a Spartan attitude twards gold and silver. The archeologists cant find any in Slav villages. The Slave als shifted from growing grain to growing tubers. When they heard an army was coming, they took what food they could carry, and bured the rest of the turnips. They hid out in the forests until the armies starved to death.

This is basically what happened to Napolean in Russia. Iron was also a very egalitarian metal; ore deposits are found all over Europe, and while they had to leave their smelting furnaces, the effort needed to smelt iron didnt make them a rich target without the blacksmith there. But he fled with everyone else.

[Carl G]

Actually Cory, cheese was melted thousands of years before; dig the irony. This brought the coppers, but the big leap was when the Transvestite Mime Bakery opened in San Francisco. The chocolate was contaminated with almond, nevertheless when the coppers got their danish, free, you really had some allies.

Recently, archeology has moved from European cities to the rural areas, and they find German villages all had fine bakeries. This dispersal created no problems for the Romans, who loved rich foods. The Slavs went one worse with a Spartan attitude twards (sorry, too lazy for spel chek) donuts and croissant. The Slave als shifted frem growing gran to usta growing rutabagas. When they heard an army coming, they took what musical instruments they could carry, and bured the rest of the tubas. They hid in the forests until the armies, who were too dumb to find anyone to show them where the caches were, starved to death.

This is basically what happened to napoleans in Russia. Irony was it was also a very egalitarian meal; cream filling deposits are found all over Europe, and while they had to leaven their bread in ovens, the effort needed to melt cheese didnt make them a viable destination without a 'name' baker there. But he fled with everyone else.

[Cory Duchesne]

Actually Cory, gold was smelted thousands of years before iron.

Ok, my mistake. I think I should have stuck with 'metallurgist'. I'm still a bit wary of calling him a goldsmith is because he obviously was more than that when you consider the fact that he created an iron vault, a feat which obviously took skills that went beyond strictly goldsmithing skills. My guess is that he was generally regarded as a goldsmith by certain people, but in other respects he had a broader range of metallurgical skill which helped him transform into the banker.

Next came copper, but the big leap was when the transylvanian mines opened up.

Which Transylvania are you referring to? I suspect it's probably the one in Europe, but whenever I do a search on google maps, it takes me to the one in America.

Recently, archeology has moved from the great European cities to the rural areas, and they find that German villages all had iron foundries. This dispersal created real problems for the Romans, who preferred richer targets.

Two Questions:

1) How come 'well dispersed iron foundries' caused problems for the Romans?

2) Is Gold much more difficult to smelt then iron? I realize that Iron is a much more abundant ore, but I thought that it was much harder to smelt than gold.

The Slavs went them one better with a Spartan attitude twards gold and silver. The archeologists cant find any in Slav villages. The Slave als shifted from growing grain to growing tubers. When they heard an army was coming, they took what food they could carry, and bured the rest of the turnips. They hid out in the forests until the armies starved to death.

What are tubers? What does 'bured' mean?

[daybrown]

Sorry for the confusion Cory. Not bured, buried tubers. You cant bury grain; it spouts. Turnips, parsnips, rutabegas, & beets, can be easily hidden under the leaf duff in forest and retreived as need be til the army, bandits, or whoever starves out. Life In A Midieval Village, taken from the court records of an out of the way English Midlnads 13th century hamlet, shows how, when the abbot (whose abby owned the land) tried to raise taxes, the villagers fled into the forest with their supplies. The strike worked; after several months, the abbot caved.

Historians & scribes in the pay of the warrior class dont write about this kind of stuff. Likewise the prehistory is obscure. http://www.daybrown.org/artifax/artifax.html ...give that a minute, there's lotsa images, but then scroll down to see the little masked shaman. 7000 years old from what is now Hungary. The nearby Transylvanian mountains have chalcoite deposits, which are contaminated with arsenic.

There was a huge fish kill on the Danube a few years back when the arsenic from gold mining there spilled into the river. Anyhow, that thing on his shoulder is an arsenic bronze grain sickle. 7000 years old. Since Gimbutas published that photo, another copper mine, from 3500 BC was found in Southern Germany. From then on, just like in the English midlands village, thousands of villages had forging operations.

But the Romans only came across the Danube & Rhine when they had lotsa calvary support. If You recall, Gen Varus, in 9AD, lost 24,000 men at the Teutonburg forest cause he didnt have quite enuf. (Makes Custer at the Little Big Horn look like small change) But when you move a force that large, it only pays if there are rich targets. The Barbarians figured that out. Varus was there looking for a reported German city, but all the cities were over 100 miles from the Roman frontier.

Barford, "The Early Slavs", reports that there were little hamlets all over Germany and Romania in that 100 mile wide no-man's land that had smithing operations- that could be quickly abandoned when the Romans came. It was kinda like Vietnam, there were small targets everywhere, but no place where a definative battle could be fought. It just didnt pay, and everywhere a unit went, it was subject to ambush and sniping.

Even with the mines in Transylvania, the Romans tried for hundreds of years to conquer what is now called Romania, holding it for only 50. The only time the Byzantines had any luck was with an unlikely alliance with the Khazars, hitting it from both North and South at the same time. But that didnt last either. Both the Black Forest and Transylvania still have a kind of spooky reputation, as if you dont go there less you got kin.

There were huge swathes of Central Europe with no history cause nobody was there to write it. Slavs worked the land a few generations, then when the soil began to play out, pulled up stakes and pioneered another spot in the boonies. Nobody knew where they were, nobody knew where they went. The scribes of the kings despised the Slavs, who could not be organized enuf to exploit. "Survivalists" today would do well to study the Slavic way of life. Nobody had any gold or silver; only useful things of bronze and iron.

[Tomas]

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You win, Carl. ;-)




Carl G - Actually Cory, cheese was melted thousands of years before; dig the irony. This brought the coppers, but the big leap was when the Transvestite Mime Bakery opened in San Francisco. The chocolate was contaminated with almond, nevertheless when the coppers got their danish, free, you really had some allies.

-tomas-
Transvestite Mime Bakery? - This is where I did a double-take and had to look at the names. I'm seeing Daybrown's (previous post) with that "hat" (or whatever) on his head ... "the coppers got their danish" - really had some allies!

Very funny, Carl ;-)




-Carl G-
Recently, archeology has moved from European cities to the rural areas, and they find German villages all had fine bakeries. This dispersal created no problems for the Romans, who loved rich foods. The Slavs went one worse with a Spartan attitude twards (sorry, too lazy for spel chek) donuts and croissant. The Slave als shifted frem growing gran to usta growing rutabagas. When they heard an army coming, they took what musical instruments they could carry, and bured the rest of the tubas. They hid in the forests until the armies, who were too dumb to find anyone to show them where the caches were, starved to death.

-tomas-
Love the lack of spel-chek here :-)




-Carl G-
This is basically what happened to napoleans in Russia. Irony was it was also a very egalitarian meal; cream filling deposits are found all over Europe, and while they had to leaven their bread in ovens, the effort needed to melt cheese didnt make them a viable destination without a 'name' baker there. But he fled with everyone else.

-tomas-
Though i don't have one very often (anymore), gonna make a grilled cheese sandwich when i get home.


Keep the humor runnin'


Tomas (the tank)
Prince of Jerusalem
16 Degree
Scottish Rite Free Mason


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[daybrown]

A problem the warrior class has always had is a lack of scholarship, and a denigrating attitude twards scholars; who therefore, do not tell those in power what the alpha male leaders do not want to hear. Somebody knew what kind of trouble Napoleon would run into in Russia, and lotsa folks more recently knew what kind of trouble Bush would have in the near East. They dont read history, they trivialize what they dont know, and- they keep repeating it.

The smith has a different attitude. I forget the name of the Bavarian town, but in the 14th-15th century, they made the best armor for the aristociracy in Europe. *NOBODY* fucked with their shit. They got filthy rich, in an area that had been over run many times by armies going all the way back to the Romans, didnt really have much of their own army, but had no trouble getting mercenaries- who hoped to get some of the latest styles for beta testing.

They were a rich target, but it wasnt the city walls that made it such a hard one.