Responding to potential Societal Collapse

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Cory Duchesne
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Responding to potential Societal Collapse

Post by Cory Duchesne » Wed Oct 24, 2007 12:20 pm

And not just survival skills, but preferred ways of living.

I was thinking maybe this thread could gradually build up, becoming a reservoir of practical knowledge. It might even serve as a good slap in the face for those of us who take quite a bit of our every day items for granted.

Food is obviously one of the first things that comes to mind when we think of a collapse.

David Hodges mentioned raising chickens. Securing a source of protein is a good idea, but one of the problems I see with chickens is (correct me if I'm wrong) you would need a steady source of grain to feed them. How many acres devoted to producing grain does it take to support a reasonable flock of chickens?

A part of survival, obviously, is having a useful neighbor that can do something that you can't. You raise chickens, he raises grain.

One's relationship to other human beings should be symbiotic, not competitive. The concept of symbiotic relationships should be one of the first things we learn in school. But sadly, it's not even the last. Most people don't know what the word means.

We're pretty much unwittingly competing to see who can self destruct the fastest and most spectacularly.
Last edited by Cory Duchesne on Thu Oct 25, 2007 1:05 am, edited 1 time in total.

Iolaus
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Re: Preparing for (and/or preventing) Societal Collapse

Post by Iolaus » Wed Oct 24, 2007 1:24 pm

Chickens can scratch for a lot of their own food and they eat all kinds of scraps. So you'd buy some bags of grain to get started but in the end you have to be prepared for food independence.
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Re: Preparing for (and/or preventing) Societal Collapse

Post by daybrown » Wed Oct 24, 2007 2:30 pm

2oz of corn chops/day will get the birds thru the winter til green shoots and bugs appear in spring. A 50lb sack will take at least 8 birds thru 80 days of frozen ground. They will eat your shit too. And cow, horse and goat shit. Not seem them go after cat shit or dog shit. You do not want to think about what they make eggs out of.

http://dc-pc.org/farmath/farmath.html says that in 1885, they got 21 bu/corn/acre. When I was a kid on the farm, in 1950, with better hybrids, but still organic methods, it was 45-50 bu/acre. Lets try 50. that works out to be 12 sq ft per pound of maize. But since you prolly dunno what you are doing, and mite not water enuf if needed, then think more like 25sq. ft/lb. Got Thuricide? Know what BT is? if you dont, think more like 50sq ft/lb.

Wheat is a more sure thing for newbies, but- whereas each corn seed will give you hundreds on the cob, each grain of wheat, oats, rye, or barley is prolly more like 15. The above website tells you how many pounds of seed per acre for grains and potatoes. Dont forget turnips. A single turnip seed, 2/3 the size of a pot seed, can make 2lb of tuber in 45 days of decently wet cool weather. It starts early, temps havta get down below 25F to stop it, or below 20 to burn it back, and then in fall, it keeps going when everything else has quit.

One thing I like about the southern Ozarks is that the turnips grow all winter long now what with global warming. Seed put in at thanxgiving will be on the table for easter. Chickens, goats, cows, horses, and hominids like both the greens and the tubers. Cook it, and even the dogs will eat it.

Throw dead leaves, sawdust, and/or brush over it, and you can leave it in the ground all winter. If Madd Maxx and the boys show up in the area, you can bury all the tubers you cant carry with. They wont find anything to eat when they get to your place. Napoleon didnt find the beets in Russia or Poland either. Why they still like borscht. Turnips, beets, parnsips, etc have always been the secret weapon of peasants to starve out armies in Europe. Other places the peasants didnt have the tubers and were enslaved. And when it came time to harvest, if it hadda be done by hand, tubers were over 10 times easier per lb than grain.

Like I said in another post. But heard a woman in So Ca, talk about the problem of getting gas. The electric went out, the gas pumps didnt work. People were limited to the gas that was in the car when they wanted to leave the danger zone. Let me say it again. You need enuf stored gas in cans to get your rig *beyond* the range of what everyone else has in their cars.

If the proverbial SHTF, you do not want to pull off the interstate until you do so to get to your planned destination. As law enforcement breaks down, the gas stations will be used by thugs to rip people off. If you get caught without the option of your planned destination, do NOT go to the national forest. There's tons of gun nuts who already have that in mind. look for an agribusiness area,

i discuss this in my post-apocalyptic 'Newomen'. The homestead act gave farmers 160 acres, which they then lined up along the frontage road, the front 40 acres, the 2nd, 3rd, and then the back 40. They were each responsible for maintaining the frontage road, so this system minimized frontage. And the back 40 of one frontage road abutted the back 40 of the next frontage road, usually 2 miles north or south. There's a kind of equipment alley between the back 40s which are still used by agribusiness tractors.

Hopefully, it wont be too muddy. if you drive down this alley, you'll eventually come to a drainage, and can drive down into that to be *below* the horizon line, and mile away from either frontage road. There you can wait a few weeks, listen to the car radio, or better yet- a CB. to wait til the crazies get done shooting it out with each other. You can prolly still find a CB radio in a junkyard for 10$. or order one from JC Whitney.

Either way, the truckers, as long as they are rolling on the freeways, will be talking about what they have seen- which prolly wont be on the local media. In a post crash world, a CB radio will be worth its weight in gold. Short wave mite be worth silver. Radio Havana will prolly still be on the air. Gloating. But useful. CB radios are still in pickups all over the Ozarks because its easy to get beyond cell phone range, and cell phones dont work down in the hollows anyway. Prolly lots in the Rockies too.

Preventing collapse is not upta us. Tonite, FRONTLINE's rap on a possible Iran war was scary, and if Bush starts that, global investors could panic. But even if so, you mite have a few days to get outta dodge. Because the Fed can use the M3 to support stock and bond prices, I dont pay much attention to Wall Street, but do watch the "G" commodities, gas, gold, grain.

'Countrywide' says it'll negotiate with sub prime folks to prevent foreclosure. Lets hope that idea catches on. As a national trend, it would represent a massive transfer of wealth from the big shots back to the middle class, and mite do a lot to keep things together while they work out more sustainable solutions.

But if not, and you have seed, a few gardening tools, and enough grain to get you to the next harvest in some decent dirt, you and whoever you are with mite be able to get by until you figure out a more permanent plan.
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Re: Preparing for (and/or preventing) Societal Collapse

Post by Iolaus » Wed Oct 24, 2007 2:59 pm

I've got a hand-cranked radio at my country place. I don't really know what short wave means, or a CB either.
Prolly I should also look at the map and consider a non-interstate route? Or might that be just as bad?

I had been thinking we had a couple of years.

I've got a bunch of little gas cans out back but how long is the gas good for?

My husband laughs, but he'll cooperate.
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Re: Preparing for (and/or preventing) Societal Collapse

Post by daybrown » Wed Oct 24, 2007 3:44 pm

Iolaus wrote:I've got a hand-cranked radio at my country place. I don't really know what short wave means, or a CB either.
Its old technology. But still today, there are transmitters that operate at night, when signals can bounce off the ionosphere they can go thousands of miles. In the Ozarks, I've listened to radio Havana, the BBC (from England), even radio Moscow, and heard lotsa languages I dont know. But only at nite. CB works only within a few miles in the daytime, but I have heard some jackass in LA who put 1000 watts on a CB channel. Again, only at night. You need a license for ham or shortwave, but CB "citizen's band" doesnt require one.

Truckers have always used one to trade info on interstate traffic conditions and where the cops are.

<Prolly I should also look at the map and consider a non-interstate route? Or might that be just as bad?>
Depends on where you are, where you want to go, and when you leave. As with Katrina and now with LA, troopers will focus on keeping the interstate rolling as mobs of cars get out. If you have a CB, it'll prolly tell you whether the interstate is rolling or not. Maybe even a cellphone. Sometimes the FM has a road condition station. YMMV.

Having a heavy duty wirecutter mite be handy. if traffic is snarled, you mite be able to use it to cut a hole in the chainlink fence along the freeway and get off. Then, if you are driving thru cattle country, cut the barb wire behind you. cows will wander out onto the road, which will slow down the crazies behind you. Saner people tend to drive slower, so wont have cow crashes.

I had been thinking we had a couple of years.
Good bet, but that's all it is.
I've got a bunch of little gas cans out back but how long is the gas good for?
Longer than you think. After the gas guage says 1/2, top it off with the oldest crap gas, and the rig will keep on rolling. "Stabel" is a product sold at auto parts to stabilize gas for long term storage. Get a few cans of "Starter fluid" too.
<My husband laughs, but he'll cooperate.>
Good humor in hard times helps. If panic starts in winter, will anyone go anywhere? Will the snowplows be working? If not, you got mountain bikes? If you are in good enuf shape, 10 mph is still 80 miles after 10 hours. Be a good investment, and you need the exercise anyway. If there's a crash, bike mobility will be real important. dont need gas.

MSRA freaks out healthcare workers cause it spreads by skin to skin contact. If a pandemic breaks out and folks leave town, mite be a better idea to just stay home. Save your milk jugs and fill them with water. Save your kisses for just your kids. Microbes are adapting to mouth to mouth transmission. use alcohol wipes - but *after* you leave the public bathrooms and dont need to touch the door anymore. Use them again before you get in the car so that the inside is not contaminated with anything your kids can pick up. At the very least, this can eliminate some rhino viruses they get exposed to. Consider homeschooling.
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Re: Preparing for Societal Collapse or other emergencies

Post by DHodges » Wed Oct 24, 2007 11:04 pm

The CB radio sounds like a good idea, I hadn't thought of that.

I've realized that I'm lacking in certain basic skills, so I'm going to focus on that. I have a lot to learn.

There's the whole farming thing, yeah, that's very important, but what's the use of growing a bunch of wheat if I have no idea what to do with it from there?

I mean, what the hell do you do with wheat? I have a vague idea that you grind it up and make stuff out of the flour, but I've never done that. I don't know anything about baking.

Similarly, I've never done any real sewing. It's always been more cost-effective and time-efficient to just buy stuff. That seems like something I should learn about, to at least be able to repair things.

As for gas, yeah, I fill the tanks on my bikes and put in Stabil, and they are fine over the winter. If you are keeping some in cans, you should make sure that gets used and replaced with fresh gas occasionally. (I've only been keeping one gallon, for the lawn mower.)

A lot of what I've been reading stresses the idea of having an emergency kit, which you keep ready. If there is an emergency, you grab your bag and go. You will then not only have a big head start over other people who are trying to get their stuff together, you also have a well-thought-out kit of essentials, not thrown together in a panic. A basic kit can be kept in the car at all times.

Still have no idea where I'd go, though.

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Cory Duchesne
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Re: Preparing for (and/or preventing) Societal Collapse

Post by Cory Duchesne » Wed Oct 24, 2007 11:56 pm

We're so used to just going to the store and buying our seeds in slick packages.

When fall comes, extracting and preserving seeds for all of one's different crops might be fatal not to think about.

Glossary - A glossary of terms important to beginning seed saving and for expert seed savers alike

Seed saving instructions for 27 common vegetables

Seed Keeper

Winnowing


Here's a very basic tool for extracting seed:

Cleaning screen - Screens with different-sized openings are used to separate seeds from chaff. The screen number denotes the number of openings that will cover a one inch line. A screen is selected with openings just large enough to let seeds drop through without the chaff or as in the case of larger seeds, a screen selected to allow the chaff to drop through without the seeds.

That being said, it's amazing how much we depend on Metallurgy to survive the way we do. Imagine having to make for yourself just a simple cleaning screen as depicted above. I'd hardly know where to start.


Somethings David H. brought up earlier:
Hodges wrote: For instance, I can do basic car mechanics and repair. Does it make sense to go with older cars (or bikes or trucks) that are easily repairable, or does it make sense to go with "modern" cars that are more reliable, but less repairable (because of computer systems and such that they depend upon). Which makes you less dependant on outside resources?
The later involves greater risk, greater potential for leaving you high and dry. The former is simpler, less risk.

I think that's why wisdom too often get associated with the indigenous people and even animals. The simplicity of their lifestyle is more reliable and doesn't seem as subject to as much devastation as your typical civilization. The greater a civilization specializes, the greater the stakes. In light of the mentality of the world's leaders, it's hard to distinguish progress from gambling.

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Re: Responding to potential Societal Collapse

Post by sear » Thu Oct 25, 2007 1:54 am

"this thread could gradually build up, becoming a reservoir of practical knowledge."
I've been living a somewhat spartan lifestyle for years. My Toyoga is a 1994. I've got a small fridge ~4 cubic feet. My electric bill is ~$30.oo per month. I can run the house on a 3kw backup generator.

But lets not overlook an obvious pitfall here.
If we're talking about a genuine anarchy; a real post-apocalyptic situation, there may not be much those that are not farmers or jungle dwellers can do.

My rural environment may be suitable for culling deer.
BUT:

If WW3 happened, and the stores all closed, the economy shrank to virtual $zero, and the few of us that survived lapsed back into barter, we probably couldn't rely on chainsaws, or any gasoline powered equipment for very long.
Guns would only be of use for as long as the ammo holds out.

And competition for scarce and dwindling vital resources (food & water) has been reason for bloodshed since before mankind.

This thread is a nice idea. But for any "disaster" more serious than a stock market crash, I'm not sure anything more than how to make a bow & arrow, and how to track game, would really make much sense.

Farming would be good. But unless you can convince your neighbors to farm too, your own farm's produce would be subject to plunder. Instead of keeping you alive, defending it might be your demise.

Some reality is counterintuitive.

I hope I haven't missed the point here.
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Cory Duchesne
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Re: Responding to potential Societal Collapse

Post by Cory Duchesne » Thu Oct 25, 2007 2:44 am

sear wrote:
"this thread could gradually build up, becoming a reservoir of practical knowledge."
I've been living a somewhat spartan lifestyle for years. My Toyoga is a 1994. I've got a small fridge ~4 cubic feet. My electric bill is ~$30.oo per month. I can run the house on a 3kw backup generator.

But lets not overlook an obvious pitfall here.

If we're talking about a genuine anarchy; a real post-apocalyptic situation, there may not be much those that are not farmers or jungle dwellers can do.
If people do not respond until after the collapse, then you're right, they are all pretty much screwed. However, I don't think it's unreasonable to prepare safety nets for a collapse.
My rural environment may be suitable for culling deer.
Yes, we have deer around here too. But to feed how many families? The deer won't last very long if that's all we have to rely on.
If WW3 happened, and the stores all closed, the economy shrank to virtual $zero, and the few of us that survived lapsed back into barter, we probably couldn't rely on chainsaws, or any gasoline powered equipment for very long.
True enough. Axes and saws would become more valued. It is quite a crazy thing to imagine a collapse being so extreme and long lasting that our most primitive tools like axes, saws, fishing hooks, hammers, nails, carpenter tools, bullets and guns become very scarce. It would mean that we would have to learn how to smelt iron all over again. This is by no means an easy task. The way we produce metal now compared to the way we did it during the iron and bronze age, as you probably know, is quite an amazing evolution. It's a long way down.
Guns would only be of use for as long as the ammo holds out.
I would think that if we had to revert back to more primitive metallurgy, bullets would be the initial desire. Probably carpenter nails too. The other things would come later.
And competition for scarce and dwindling vital resources (food & water) has been reason for bloodshed since before mankind.
Yep. Part of preparation in my view is stocking up with ammo, weapons, fortitude, sniper strategies - not likely for offense, but largely for defense.
This thread is a nice idea. But for any "disaster" more serious than a stock market crash, I'm not sure anything more than how to make a bow & arrow, and how to track game, would really make much sense.
I'm ultimately interested in making society more stable overall, the concern with collapse is more incidental. If a small chunk of the pop. goes the extra mile in regards to defense against the perils of a major collapse, then perhaps we might inadvertently give society greater stability overall. If you look at the organic farming movement that actually began earlier than the 40's, and even the counterculture activities of the 60's, their unusual commitment and lack of compromise gradually seaped into (was co-opted) by mainstream currents, and integrated into the mainstream. Thus we have the current health craze and organic products in our major grocery stores.
Farming would be good. But unless you can convince your neighbors to farm too, your own farm's produce would be subject to plunder. Instead of keeping you alive, defending it might be your demise.
Well, part of being prepared means being ready to defend with guns and defense strategies. Your success also depends how prepared you are to help others gain the skills and resources necessary to survive.

A good deal of the crime we see today, in my view, is the result of superior humans not looking after the inferior one's properly.

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Ryan Rudolph
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Re: Responding to potential Societal Collapse

Post by Ryan Rudolph » Thu Oct 25, 2007 3:38 am

I’ve been questioning the likelihood of a total global collapse occurring, and here are some of my ideas.

It seems to me that you would need a serious of sudden disastrous events such as global climate change, and oil depletion at the same time. However, if these two events happened separately or over long periods of time, then humanity could adapt to the changes. Moreover, the economy is much more dynamic than we give it credit for, even if global climate change destroys 50% of all fertile land, people could grow different types of crops that can survive in poor soils, and the remaining fertile land would be used to support the global economy, so with globalization, it provides a safety net to some of the richer countries, although the poor countries may have a worse time.

If this is true, then the worse case scenario for the west is that food could become quite expensive, forcing people to stop consuming products they don’t need, which could actually be better for the world as a whole anyway. Moreover, technologies such as hydrogen vehicles and nuclear energy can still be manufactured on mass as our oil reserves run out. So the probability of a total global collapse is unlikely, but there could be some sort of economic slowdown/recession, where the basic necessitates becomes more expensive, and it maybe in people’s best interest to do more things for themselves.

However, currently, in many cases, it costs much less to buy food products in grocery stores than to do for oneself. For instance: I grew potatoes in the summer, and after I subtracted my costs, labor, and everything from what I produced, I paid almost triple of what I would have paid to simply walk into the grocery store to buy them.

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Imadrongo
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Re: Responding to potential Societal Collapse

Post by Imadrongo » Thu Oct 25, 2007 5:15 am

Go with the bow and arrow idea. Also stash up some weapons and ammunition. If this disaster ever happens you can either hunt food and eat mushrooms or use your guns to steal from others whose backup plan was farming (lol), killing them if it is practical.

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Cory Duchesne
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Re: Responding to potential Societal Collapse

Post by Cory Duchesne » Thu Oct 25, 2007 6:55 am

It's really location that is key. If you find yourself along a seaside, then you'll be in a position to forage for perry winkles, muscles, crab, clam, and god knows what else is edible - - forests of course will likewise offer wild game. Different locations will yield different opportunities, while some locations will offer only death.

When I consider the 'Neil' factor, it almost makes sense to stay on your toes and be a hunter gatherer/rogue. Although, if I were going solo in the wilderness, even with a tribe, I would actually want to be allies with whoever I found surviving as a group. Harming them seems pretty foolish when you think of the greater opportunities and benefits of befriending them. A guy like Neil probably wouldn't last very long. Most people don't like psychopaths, and so he'd probably be on his own.

Winter times would be tough. A root cellar I think should be mandatory in every north American home, as a safety net. But the worst is always behind us, isn't it?

Overall, I'm not personally in a position to accomplish much in terms of preparation. My primary interest in making this thread was born largely out of an interest in discerning and exposing the various roots, or essences of civilization. Alright, and I got excited about stockpiling practical knowledge. The 'inner-squirrel' took control.

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Re: Responding to potential Societal Collapse

Post by daybrown » Thu Oct 25, 2007 8:32 am

Sass, "The Substance of Civilization" calculated that when farming came in, the amount of land needed to support a tribe shrank by a factor of *500*. The shrinkage in the amount of territory needed resulted in an early age of peace in both the new and old worlds.

Until the potato famine, the Irish were feeding people on 1/20th of an acre/capita. That didnt maximize mental development, but it did keep them alive. A mere 1/4 acre, properly managed, will sustain appropriate childhood physical and mental development, and do so sustainably.

The Chalcolithic tels in the Danube/Dneister basin, on fertile floodplains, sustained villages of 150-300 for over 4000 years on about 2000 acres each, including pasture and woodlots. The USDA estimates the total US farmland is still over 900 million acres, or 3 acres/capita. and that's just the tillable farmland, dont include the forests, seashores, mountains, or grazing range.

It just has to be managed properly. The Chinese have shown that people can be moved out of village huts into modern apartment buildings. The US could do the same, with all the usual comforts: central heat/air, boadband, hot tubs, bathrooms, (how about a bar on the ground floor), etc. And put it in the middle of the same 2000 acres along with the barns and equipment sheds. Americans would live as comfortably as always- but do so on no more than their fair share of the global carbon footprint.
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Re: Responding to potential Societal Collapse

Post by Ryan Rudolph » Thu Oct 25, 2007 10:18 am

Cory wrote:
Alright, and I got excited about stockpiling practical knowledge. The 'inner-squirrel' took control.
I find another problem with posts like this is that it excites the lower brain to imagine all kinds of situations where violence is necessary, and other primitive behaviors need to be readopted in order to survive. It really brings out the animal brain.

I bet Neil was having an involuntary orgasm as they read through some of it.

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Re: Responding to potential Societal Collapse

Post by hsandman » Thu Oct 25, 2007 12:46 pm

Neil Melnyk wrote:Go with the bow and arrow idea. Also stash up some weapons and ammunition. If this disaster ever happens you can either hunt food and eat mushrooms or use your guns to steal from others whose backup plan was farming (lol), killing them if it is practical.
Neil:

There is another way to get food... Help the farmer by working with him in the field or by making him a chair to sit in.

But a good point with taking a weapon with you (bow and arrows.<-good choice. Silent and renewable ammo.)

Farmers should have a weapon too.

Edit: lol
Ryan Rudolph wrote:Cory wrote:

I bet Neil was having an involuntary orgasm as they read through some of it.
It's just a ride.

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Re: Responding to potential Societal Collapse

Post by Imadrongo » Thu Oct 25, 2007 1:05 pm

You get a small amount of food by slaving away with the farmer, or 10x the food plus pretty much anything else you have that he wants by stealing it. The rational decision is clearly to loot him. I'm not saying you shouldn't have any allies, perhaps a small group that raids people would be the best strategy.

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Re: Responding to potential Societal Collapse

Post by hsandman » Thu Oct 25, 2007 1:46 pm

Neil Melnyk wrote:You get a small amount of food by slaving away with the farmer, or 10x the food plus pretty much anything else you have that he wants by stealing it. The rational decision is clearly to loot him. I'm not saying you shouldn't have any allies, perhaps a small group that raids people would be the best strategy.
There is a flaw in that logic Niel. If 10 people start out and some turn farmer and some turn looters. Then you are playing a numbers game.

Say 5 are farmers and 5 are looters/slavers, there by weakening the farmers for each farmer has to do 2X work now to feed 2 people.

Now if we start out with 10 people and 9 are looters?

You start working for farmer and he makes you work to feed 10X people instead of just 1 (or even 2) = He is not a farmer. He is a slaver/looter who is working you for the other 8 slavers and himself, you just think he is a farmer, unless you get something else in return.

(A bauble)that is worth your labor for the other 8 people. If not, then becoming a looter is next logical step, I guess.

Now when we have 9 looters and no farmers, what happens? Something like what happened when black plague wiped out ~ 2/3 of Europes population?
The fourteenth-century eruption of the Black Death had a drastic effect on Europe's population, irrevocably changing Europe's social structure. It was a serious blow to the Roman Catholic Church and resulted in widespread persecution of minorities such as Jews, foreigners, beggars and lepers.
Human nature will win at the end... The human society has been in flux between age of enlightenment and dark ages for long time now.

This is very simplistic view of it, but the point is.. you have to be useful to others and others have to be equally useful to you, for organism (person, tribe, group, society etc) to grow and develop. Be it work or ideas... as long as it is productive to the whole society not just you.

We are always in the delicate flux, you just have to pay attention to the signs of the times.

Your best hope is that other 9 people are farmers and not looters like yourself, for if they are, you are done for. :-) If you do find a "farmer" that works you for 10X people = loot him.. tit - for - tat.
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Re: Responding to potential Societal Collapse

Post by DHodges » Fri Oct 26, 2007 1:39 am

Neil Melnyk wrote:You get a small amount of food by slaving away with the farmer, or 10x the food plus pretty much anything else you have that he wants by stealing it. The rational decision is clearly to loot him. I'm not saying you shouldn't have any allies, perhaps a small group that raids people would be the best strategy.
It would be pretty rational for the farmer to shoot you, wouldn't it?

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Re: Responding to potential Societal Collapse

Post by Ryan Rudolph » Fri Oct 26, 2007 2:08 am

DHodges wrote:
It would be pretty rational for the farmer to shoot you, wouldn't it?
Yes, but Neil didn’t think that far ahead, Neil’s dream existence is a world where the majority do all the labor and creative thinking, while he is able to rape, pillage and steal without any sort of consequence to himself personally. It’s not all that realistic...

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Re: Responding to potential Societal Collapse

Post by Cory Duchesne » Fri Oct 26, 2007 2:16 am

That initiated violence isn't very pragmatic has been pointed out to Neil more than once, one time way back when he was whorllywhelk. He tends not to respond to such rebukes, moving on to make the same mistake again on a different thread.

He's a curious mix of high testosterone and senility.

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Re: Responding to potential Societal Collapse

Post by Imadrongo » Fri Oct 26, 2007 2:57 am

If everyone became a looter and no farmers? Then obviously there would be no farmers to loot and we would have to either loot looters or hunt game. This is hardly a plausible scenario though, as there are many moral people who wouldn't become looters.

It would be rational for the farmer to shoot me? Yes it would if be rational to if he could. Is that a deterrence to you? (Do you find it irrational to take any risks?)

Anyways, if this collapse ever happens you won't have a free supply of fuel to run tractors, fertilizers for your crops, power in your farm house, etc. Unless this thread is about learning to farm off the land with wooden plows and donkeys, it will be pretty useless for you.

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Cory Duchesne
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Re: Responding to potential Societal Collapse

Post by Cory Duchesne » Fri Oct 26, 2007 3:07 am

Neil Melnyk wrote: Anyways, if this collapse ever happens you won't have a free supply of fuel to run tractors, fertilizers for your crops, power in your farm house, etc.
You don't need those things to support basic needs. You only need those things if you want to support the life of very developed fields of science, technology, entertainment, missions to mars, etc.
Unless this thread is about learning to farm off the land with wooden plows and donkeys, it will be pretty useless for you.
You have given life a remarkable lack of thought. Or maybe it's your lack of inquisitiveness about life that is the problem, as inquisitiveness tends to enrich thought.
Last edited by Cory Duchesne on Fri Oct 26, 2007 6:00 am, edited 1 time in total.

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DHodges
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Responding to total mental Collapse

Post by DHodges » Fri Oct 26, 2007 4:38 am

Cory Duchesne wrote:You have given life a remarkable lack of thought.
That would make an excellent fortune cookie.


Neil Melnyk wrote:If everyone became a looter and no farmers? Then obviously there would be no farmers to loot and we would have to either loot looters or hunt game. This is hardly a plausible scenario though, as there are many moral people who wouldn't become looters.

It would be rational for the farmer to shoot me? Yes it would if be rational to if he could. Is that a deterrence to you? (Do you find it irrational to take any risks?)
Do you have any concern for what the moral thing, the right thing to do is? Or are you only concerned with what you can get away with?

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Imadrongo
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Re: Responding to total mental Collapse

Post by Imadrongo » Fri Oct 26, 2007 6:14 am

DHodges wrote:Do you have any concern for what the moral thing, the right thing to do is? Or are you only concerned with what you can get away with?
I try not to after finding out what sewage tank morality grew out of.

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Ryan Rudolph
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Re: Responding to potential Societal Collapse

Post by Ryan Rudolph » Fri Oct 26, 2007 7:01 am

Neil wrote:
I try not to after finding out what sewage tank morality grew out of.
This is pretty rudimentary, but maybe I can spark some thought in Mr. psychopath –

Neil, if you decided to dedicate your entire life into farming to ensure the survival of your community, but you woke up to discover that an entire season’s work had been stolen from you in one night, and that your community was probably going to starve as a result, how would that make you feel? Do you think the species could survive if everybody behaved like that?

Do you understand why guys like you have been systematically eliminated from the genepool by larger communities? Perhaps you should question your thought patterns, as they seem to be governed by inferior genetics.

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