How to speak to children

[Elizabeth Isabelle]

In another thread

"Panties" resembles all those cute words you normally offer in conversation with young children - e.g. "din-dins" (for dinner), "sweetie", "walkies" (for taking a walk), etc.

I do not believe that it is right to offer "cute words" to children. Childhood is the time when most language skills develop, and I believe it causes a great disservice to offer incorrect words to children. Children have enough to do to learn the names of everything in their environment once, and it is a waste to make them relearn certain terms just because adults thought it was cute to teach them the wrong name to begin with.

One might argue that this is harmless, but there can be lasting effects, especially amongst females who are expected to retain a certain child-like quality. Many of the cute words go away as the child matures, and fathers are especially good at teaching their sons that men say "walk" not "walkie." Females might not be reinstructed, and before you know it, you have a woman saying "bouncy ball" rather than "rubber ball" or someone like my mother who said "eggie" rather than "egg" her whole life (which I found mortifying).

In the infant stage, a child does not have the muscular development to form words properly, but a child already has a good understanding of language long before their first word. This has been proven by psychologists, and I have one memory from before I was old enough to speak that includes the words my mother said to me. Just because a child can not physically form the words correctly does not mean the parents should revert to saying "ba-ba" themselves (rather than blanket, bottle, pacifier, or whatever that means in a certain house). If a parent knows that "ba-ba" is as close as a child can utter to a particular word, and they know what that word is, that is good - but encouragement of proper names should continue to assist in language development, and help prevent "cute" words from slipping into an adult's vocabulary.
.

[Dan Rowden]

I think once a child begins to utter properly formed words, "cute" speak should be stopped immediately (and even then based on the theory that they may be helpful in some way for babies, which is questionable). I think we have to examine the psychology that lies behind such behaviour. And beyond that why we revert to it in romantic or courtship situations with other adults.

What do you think about that idea, snookums?

[Elizabeth Isabelle]

Obviously I am not perfectly enlightened because even though I hope that was not directed at me, I literally got nauseous and had an actual abdominal cramp at seeing the word "snookums" - and I had to look back at your post to see how that was spelled.

I'll have to get back to you after thinking about that for awhile, which I will do right after my stomache settles down. Gads Dan, that was really gross. (apon realizing that I did not have the same idea of what "romantic" means as most people do, one boyfriend recognized that he should actually ask what I thought the most romantic Valentine's Day gift was. I told him Mace. It says you care about the other person's safety, and would never do anything to hurt that person yourself - so this is something that I can't look into my mind for a good introspection on)
.

[Katy]

It has been scientifically demonstrated that children pay attention more to "baby talk" and it increases their learning (demonstrated by research that went into making the teletubbies)

It has also been shown by cross cultural studies including areas that use baby talk extensively and those who don't interact with pre-verbal children at all except to feed them, and anything in between that the made up words don't have any effect on the learning process after age 5 everyone catches up.

[Elizabeth Isabelle]

after age 5 everyone catches up.

Then how do you explain a 20-some year old woman saying "bouncy ball" or my mother saying "eggie" up until her death?
.

[Dan Rowden]

Obviously I am not perfectly enlightened because even though I hope that was not directed at me, I literally got nauseous and had an actual abdominal cramp at seeing the word "snookums" - and I had to look back at your post to see how that was spelled.

I'll have to get back to you after thinking about that for awhile, which I will do right after my stomache settles down. Gads Dan, that was really gross.

Indeed it was. I was illustrating the point. Obviously it worked.

[Dan Rowden]

It has been scientifically demonstrated that children pay attention more to "baby talk" and it increases their learning (demonstrated by research that went into making the teletubbies)

It has also been shown by cross cultural studies including areas that use baby talk extensively and those who don't interact with pre-verbal children at all except to feed them, and anything in between that the made up words don't have any effect on the learning process after age 5 everyone catches up.

Yeah, that makes sense to me, though I would like to see it stopped before 5. That seems a little old to me. Once a child can construct a coherent sentence it ought be shelved in my view.

[Dan Rowden]

after age 5 everyone catches up.

Then how do you explain a 20-some year old woman saying "bouncy ball"

Hmm, I don't think Katy's use of that term fits the parameters of your point, really. Those things are sometimes simply called that.

or my mother saying "eggie" up until her death?

I think many women tend to get habitualised into such verbal behaviours by virtue of the experience of motherhood.

[Elizabeth Isabelle]

after age 5 everyone catches up.

Then how do you explain a 20-some year old woman saying "bouncy ball"

Hmm, I don't think Katy's use of that term fits the parameters of your point, really. Those things are sometimes simply called that.

Just like sometimes things are called "panties" rather than "underwear" - sometimes things are called "bouncy balls" rather than "rubber balls" and that's okay in your mind?
.

[Elizabeth Isabelle]

or my mother saying "eggie" up until her death?

I think many women tend to get habitualised into such verbal behaviours by virtue of the experience of motherhood.

When I explained to my mother how mortified I was that she was still using that term, she explained that she had always used that term since the time she was a little girl, and saw no reason to change it.
.

[Katy]

after age 5 everyone catches up.

Then how do you explain a 20-some year old woman saying "bouncy ball" or my mother saying "eggie" up until her death?
.

I like the thinly veiled insult, and persistant attacking me for using "bouncy ball" to describe the girl in my icon. However, "bouncy ball" is in fact the correct word for the ball used in jacks

http://www.ehow.com/how_2964_play-jacks.html
http://www.prezziesplus.co.uk/Pig-Jacks-Game.html
http://42explore.com/sidewlk.htm

and on and on.


If you're gonna be a witch, at least know bhat you're talking about.

[Unidian]

It's only an effective insult if one buys into their premise that there is something wrong with using terms like "bouncy ball."

Sorry, had to state the obvious for posterity.

[Dan Rowden]

after age 5 everyone catches up.

Then how do you explain a 20-some year old woman saying "bouncy ball"

Hmm, I don't think Katy's use of that term fits the parameters of your point, really. Those things are sometimes simply called that.

Just like sometimes things are called "panties" rather than "underwear" - sometimes things are called "bouncy balls" rather than "rubber balls" and that's okay in your mind?

I can understand why you see an equivalence. I just think it's a stretch and that there are better examples. Ones that really do speak to the point being made. I'm not sure that one does. They are balls and they are bouncy. Makes sense to me.

[Elizabeth Isabelle]

In your first link, although it did offer the cute term "bouncy ball" - throughout most of the page it just referred to it as a ball, and later under the "Things You'll Need" section, it was referred to as a rubber ball. Just because "cute" terms are used sometimes does not make it mature - especially in instructions designed for children.

I notice the second link includes the cute word "prezzies" in it. I don't expect anything on that site to be phrased in adult terminology.

I didn't bother with the third link, I do trust that you found someplace else that put "bouncy ball" on their website.

If the argument you are presenting is "herdly behavior is the best behavior" then I understand why you are not following the logic I am presenting.

If you're gonna be a witch, at least know bhat you're talking about.

I considered long before attempting to point at something that was girly terminology because I knew you would consider it a personal attack rather than just an effort in the direction of the goals of this board. After due consideration and knowing that you would throw some kind of a fit over this (as your name-calling confirmed), I decided that as long as you are posting these sorts of comments on this site, they should be expected to come under the scrutiny that is common to this site. I further recognized that it would be a disservice to you to not point out that "bouncy ball" is far less mature sounding than "rubber ball."

This does fit in with a larger philosophic perspective on how children should be raised, and I presented this as benignly as possible while still being direct enough to get the point across. There was no need for either you or Dan to make the direct correlation.
.

[Elizabeth Isabelle]

I can understand why you see an equivalence. I just think it's a stretch and that there are better examples. Ones that really do speak to the point being made. I'm not sure that one does. They are balls and they are bouncy. Makes sense to me.

Tennis balls are also bouncy, but they are made of more products than just rubber. Do you call tennis balls "bouncy balls" because they bounce?
.

[Dan Rowden]

I simply think there are better examples. But one problem we'll have in this discussion is finding where the line between "cute" speak, like we use with children and lovers, ends, and simple informality in language begins.

And with respect to David's original point, we shouldn't leave out the male dimension of gender reinforcing speech. We call female underwear "panties" because of the "flowie", "girly" connotation, but we also call male underwear "jocks" for reasons of the equivalent gender role emphasis.

This could be a very complex thread.....

[Dan Rowden]

I can understand why you see an equivalence. I just think it's a stretch and that there are better examples. Ones that really do speak to the point being made. I'm not sure that one does. They are balls and they are bouncy. Makes sense to me.

Tennis balls are also bouncy, but they are made of more products than just rubber. Do you call tennis balls "bouncy balls" because they bounce?

Bouncy balls are made for that exact purpose - maximum bounce cpacity. Not all rubber balls bounce that much. Like I said, and will say again, I can understand why you see it as a useful example, I just think there are better ones.

[Katy]

I considered long before attempting to point at something that was girly terminology because I knew you would consider it a personal attack rather than just an effort in the direction of the goals of this board.

Next time, do us both a favor, and don't. Just pretend I'm not here and never say anything to me again.

[Dan Rowden]

"Panties" resembles all those cute words you normally offer in conversation with young children - e.g. "din-dins" (for dinner), "sweetie", "walkies" (for taking a walk), etc.

Actually, there's a dimension to this that just hit me that's possibly even more disturbing - that we use this very same terminology when we speak to our dogs and cats.

Dogs, cats and children. All on the same line of the wisdom chart.

[Elizabeth Isabelle]

When I was a child, balls designed for maximum bounce capabilities were called super balls (which is at least not quite so girly sounding, either), but jacks were played with regular rubber balls. Although jacks could be played with the balls made for maximum bounce capability, it is not necessary.
.

[Dan Rowden]

I considered long before attempting to point at something that was girly terminology because I knew you would consider it a personal attack rather than just an effort in the direction of the goals of this board.

Next time, do us both a favor, and don't. Just pretend I'm not here and never say anything to me again.

This isn't very helpful, Katy. She didn't say anything to you. She made a point out of something you had said. That happens on boards. You'll have to live with it. The ability to disagree is always there.

[Katy]

bouncy - tending characteristically to bounce or bounce well

It's not a made up word. It's a real word that describes, oddly enough, the characteristic of bouncing well - which bouncy balls are, in fact, designed to do. It's not childish; it's English. Now if I were to call it a "bouncy bally" you might have a point, but as it is, why don't you just admit you're wrong.


Dan - Fine, I ammend my statement

Elizabeth - If you find yourself wondering whether to say something to/about/regarding me, don't. You could have made the point, and in fact made it better, if you had used a real example of child speak instead of trying to attack me.

[Elizabeth Isabelle]

But one problem we'll have in this discussion is finding where the line between "cute" speak, like we use with children and lovers, ends, and simple informality in language begins.

I suggest that this should be a matter of speaking descriptively rather than adding or exchanging for flowie or nonsense terms.

One point particularly, anything that ends in an "ee" sound that can not be stated in a grammatically correct way otherwise is suspect. Girls names are more commonly either given to end in an "ee" sound - like Amy, Tracy, Julie, etc. or changed to add an "ee" sound - like Susan to Suzie, and males usually drop the "ee" sound Joey gets changed to Joe, Stevie gets changed to Steve (Stevie Wonder aside), Timmy gets changed to Tim, etc.

Terms that are feminized also get an "ee" sound - people say girly but they do not say boyee. They say boyish, but rarely do people say girlish. The term that sparked David's attention had an "ee" sound near the end - "panties" and the term that made my stomache curl "bouncy" also had an "ee" on the end. Even Kevin's term flowie - meant to be feminized - ends in an "ee" sound. The point is that ending anything in "ee" unnecessarily feminizes it.
.

[Elizabeth Isabelle]

Katy, it wasn't an attack against you personally. It was a point about a term you used. Furthermore, this discussion has moved past that tiny point. Before Dan mentioned that your comment was not helpful, I was tempted to mention that it was as childish as I considered the "bouncy ball" term to be, but I decided not to say anything at that point because I didn't think you were emotionally stable enough to recognize that your comment was childish even if I pointed it out. However now that you have made two posts telling me not to talk to you without my saying anything to you in between those two posts of yours, I must point out that you are having a temper tantrum.

Now, can you please stop making this about you personally and get down to the philosophy of the ethics of flowie terminology, and exactly what termonology is flowie?
.

[Elizabeth Isabelle]

"Panties" resembles all those cute words you normally offer in conversation with young children - e.g. "din-dins" (for dinner), "sweetie", "walkies" (for taking a walk), etc.

Actually, there's a dimension to this that just hit me that's possibly even more disturbing - that we use this very same terminology when we speak to our dogs and cats.

Dogs, cats and children. All on the same line of the wisdom chart.

I wonder how common that is? I've seen women with those little dogs using terminology like that, my mother used terminology like that when speaking to anyone including the dog, but I have never used terminology like that to any of my dogs (even as a child), nor did my father. Actually, I don't recall anyone other than women with small dogs and my mother using that sort of terminology to dogs, although I have seen guys talk though pouty lips at their dogs.

edit to add phrase "to dogs" in the last sentance
.