Progress in Evolution
- Matt Gregory
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Progress in Evolution
The only reason evolution leads to greater complexity is because there is no external or internal constraint on complexity that would make it a serious disadvantage.
Life grows more or less randomly in that sometimes it changes in size, sometimes it changes in weight, sometimes it changes so it can live in a different habitat, sometimes it changes color, etc. The only limits to the changes are caused by the environment (internal and external to the organism) and are not inherent in the chemical aspect of evolution.
I'm sure the chemical reaction has some limits, but I don't think we can know what those limits truly are without controlling evolution and manipulating the total environment to allow for free growth and seeing what is possible with it.
But even so, we'll never know the exact limits of it, just like we'll never know the exact limits of chemistry.
But maybe it is unlimited. Maybe you could evolve an organism that's the size of Jupiter and has buildings and an atmosphere and all kinds of planetary features encoded in its DNA. Maybe the potential of DNA for storing structural information is infinite.
Life grows more or less randomly in that sometimes it changes in size, sometimes it changes in weight, sometimes it changes so it can live in a different habitat, sometimes it changes color, etc. The only limits to the changes are caused by the environment (internal and external to the organism) and are not inherent in the chemical aspect of evolution.
I'm sure the chemical reaction has some limits, but I don't think we can know what those limits truly are without controlling evolution and manipulating the total environment to allow for free growth and seeing what is possible with it.
But even so, we'll never know the exact limits of it, just like we'll never know the exact limits of chemistry.
But maybe it is unlimited. Maybe you could evolve an organism that's the size of Jupiter and has buildings and an atmosphere and all kinds of planetary features encoded in its DNA. Maybe the potential of DNA for storing structural information is infinite.
- HUNTEDvsINVIS
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hey. interesting ideas. you seem to be more interested in manipulating the environment than the DNA structures themselves in order to create more effective organisms. Nice! But at the rate scientists are moving with their experiments I doubt they'd like to hang around for years to wait for organisms to change by themselves. cuz it takes years. Plus "organisms" are too difficult/unpredictable to control, I prefer robots. I find it really interesting/artistic, though, that you can imagine an organism that has streets etc. People should try to create artificial DNA so they can control it better ( the robo-creatures ). PS: Read about "robotic nurses" ( actually called "nursebots" ) that might be used in hospitals soon to do small fry labour. DNA is a most fascinating thing, I bet the universe evolved from DNA. Anyway, I think the universe is "planned out" in its "DNA" and that the future is pre-determined for the universe because if everything is under chemical/scientific control everything can only result according to these rules and forces and chemical movements. It's like a grand plan, enabled by a code. OK, ok, so it's like called the THEORY OF EVERYTHING or TOE by scientists who hope to unlock this code that determines everything. They however want to unlock the rules that determine everything and not the actual physical DNA code or chemical code so they can predict the future etc.
- Matt Gregory
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Well, I was just exploring the philosophical basis of evolution a little bit. I didn't start this topic because I'm particularly interested in biology or anything.HUNTEDvsINVIS wrote:hey. interesting ideas. you seem to be more interested in manipulating the environment than the DNA structures themselves in order to create more effective organisms. Nice!
Yeah, it would take millions of years to perform any useful experiments.But at the rate scientists are moving with their experiments I doubt they'd like to hang around for years to wait for organisms to change by themselves. cuz it takes years.
Well, that was kind of a silly example, but I'm sure DNA is more powerful than we currently are aware of.Plus "organisms" are too difficult/unpredictable to control, I prefer robots. I find it really interesting/artistic, though, that you can imagine an organism that has streets etc.
Nah, DNA is just a chemical within the universe. It's a powerful chemical, but still just a finite thing.People should try to create artificial DNA so they can control it better ( the robo-creatures ). PS: Read about "robotic nurses" ( actually called "nursebots" ) that might be used in hospitals soon to do small fry labour. DNA is a most fascinating thing, I bet the universe evolved from DNA.
The universe is infinite, so it can't be mapped out by anything, as anything we could point to or even imagine as a map would by definition be within the universe.Anyway, I think the universe is "planned out" in its "DNA" and that the future is pre-determined for the universe because if everything is under chemical/scientific control everything can only result according to these rules and forces and chemical movements. It's like a grand plan, enabled by a code.
Yeah, but even if they found something like a TOE, it would be useless to us. We break up science into different fields for a reason.OK, ok, so it's like called the THEORY OF EVERYTHING or TOE by scientists who hope to unlock this code that determines everything. They however want to unlock the rules that determine everything and not the actual physical DNA code or chemical code so they can predict the future etc.
- HUNTEDvsINVIS
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I wouldn't say TOE would be completely useless. Of course what would happen is that, if some people could predict the future, this knowledge might be put to evil use ( probably by governments ). I mean, scientists have created a fairly accurate means of making an object seem invisible by bending the electromagnetic waves around it. Except for two-dimensionality and a small shadow, you can't see the object. And yet, what happened? The government wants to improve this function to use it in ( you guessed it ) the military... Whoever finds the TOE will expose it to manipulation/evil. Our species is not ready or honest enough to find a TOE. Unless the TOE can predict things that we would all be pleased to know, in which case it might be used for good.
- Matt Gregory
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Well, the thing is is that even if they found a TOE (I mean a TOE besides cause and effect, which is the only true TOE that there ever could be), it would require so much data that it would take longer to calculate the future than it would to just wait for the events themselves to unfold. Not to mention the fact that such data could never be complete. In order to predict the future with 100% accuracy, you would need to know everything about every single object in the universe and plug it into the formula, because any one of those objects can affect the future outcome of anything else. Okay, so nobody would need perfect accuracy, but even if you confined the formula to only things on Earth, it would require an amount of data that can never be achieved. Even if you somehow could seize the data of all of the objects in the universe that exist in one moment, the next moment would come around and invalidate your data. A future event will never be 100% predictable.
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MindExpansion
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Extremely mind-bending information Matt Gregory and HvsI! Took a hold and threw me into a labyrinth of unknown proportions:)
Hope you don't mind if I contribute some of my ideas/questions:
When I think of evolution some of the first thoughts that come to mind are of the diversities between a wide range of organisms; stemming from fungus all the way up to us- the superior, mentally advanced multiorganisms. As humans we have survived by adapting to our evironment (earth) and evolved in order to survive for longer and more productive periods of time, so that we can develop into even more efficient beings; (but whats the point!?)
What is the big picture of developing and surviving, for what purpose? Are we creating a purpose through all these processes?
Was it all a mistake, a lucky roll of dice? Imagine maybe our Universe even though its said to be infinite, may actually be part a an even larger and more complex organism...God?(*-*)
We are constantly evolving, but it takes a lot of time notice these changes, they need time to build on eachother.
...We our the first organisms to break free of our life sustaining evironment and travel into previously unthought of posibilities, like to the moon.
Robots...Wow! We are sort of Gods ourselves. Creating programs from codes that are similar to genes and who knows maybe oneday become conscious!? What are the limitations? Nobody has the capacity (yet:)) to imagine.
I'm sure that if we were to travel 200 years back in time (?)
Are technology would seem like magic...
Einsteins Theory of Relativity--> Seems impossible to me... Why does it work, why can it not be disproven?
Hope you don't mind if I contribute some of my ideas/questions:
When I think of evolution some of the first thoughts that come to mind are of the diversities between a wide range of organisms; stemming from fungus all the way up to us- the superior, mentally advanced multiorganisms. As humans we have survived by adapting to our evironment (earth) and evolved in order to survive for longer and more productive periods of time, so that we can develop into even more efficient beings; (but whats the point!?)
What is the big picture of developing and surviving, for what purpose? Are we creating a purpose through all these processes?
Was it all a mistake, a lucky roll of dice? Imagine maybe our Universe even though its said to be infinite, may actually be part a an even larger and more complex organism...God?(*-*)
We are constantly evolving, but it takes a lot of time notice these changes, they need time to build on eachother.
...We our the first organisms to break free of our life sustaining evironment and travel into previously unthought of posibilities, like to the moon.
Robots...Wow! We are sort of Gods ourselves. Creating programs from codes that are similar to genes and who knows maybe oneday become conscious!? What are the limitations? Nobody has the capacity (yet:)) to imagine.
I'm sure that if we were to travel 200 years back in time (?)
Are technology would seem like magic...
Einsteins Theory of Relativity--> Seems impossible to me... Why does it work, why can it not be disproven?
Matt,
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This is not true if we have a TOE that allows us to predict the next moment. I.E., if we uderstand all the nitty-gritty rules of cause and effect. Unless you're saying you don't believe in cause and effect.Even if you somehow could seize the data of all of the objects in the universe that exist in one moment, the next moment would come around and invalidate your data.
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- Matt Gregory
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MindExpansion
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- Matt Gregory
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- Matt Gregory
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- Joined: Tue Jun 07, 2005 11:40 am
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Shahrazad,
But let's say you're setting up the computer to perform the calculation. When you go to update the state to reflect the state that it is in, you would change the state and invalidate what you're putting into it.Then have a super powerful computer calculating. You wouldn't really have to calculate each moment separately. You could have the computer calculate where the particles will be in 10 minutes, for example, and that would give the computer plenty of time to come up with an answer.
Increasing complexity in evolution is sometimes thought of as a "leftward drift." This refers to the fact that systems cannot get any simpler than the simplest possible state, so any change in systems will tend toward greater complexity over time. If we imagine evolution as occurring in a room with a wall to the right (the simplest possible state) and endless open space to the left, it is easy to see how anything going to the right will hit the wall while anything going to the left is free to follow its full course.
This "boundeness" in the forward direction of time is the reason that constant change will have a natural progressive tendency.
This "boundeness" in the forward direction of time is the reason that constant change will have a natural progressive tendency.
I live in a tub.
Matt,
The only real limitation I see is the measurement accuracy, which will never be perfect.
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I don't see why I would have to 'update' the state. I would only have to plug in the data for the initial state (which would be a time in the past, as some time will have to elapse between my measurements and plugging in the numbers in the computer), and the final state (with a time I choose) will be the computer's output.But let's say you're setting up the computer to perform the calculation. When you go to update the state to reflect the state that it is in, you would change the state and invalidate what you're putting into it.
The only real limitation I see is the measurement accuracy, which will never be perfect.
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- Matt Gregory
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Nat,
The complexity of life as a whole increases only because it comes about from species living in an unchanging environment for a long time and gradually becoming precisely formed to it.
Well, I don't believe in any such wall, unless you're referring to disconnected molecules that form no object or something. I still say life evolves in all directions without any specific course. Things get more simple when species become extinct and when organs degenerate and drop out of the gene pool.Increasing complexity in evolution is sometimes thought of as a "leftward drift." This refers to the fact that systems cannot get any simpler than the simplest possible state, so any change in systems will tend toward greater complexity over time. If we imagine evolution as occurring in a room with a wall to the right (the simplest possible state) and endless open space to the left, it is easy to see how anything going to the right will hit the wall while anything going to the left is free to follow its full course.
This "boundeness" in the forward direction of time is the reason that constant change will have a natural progressive tendency.
The complexity of life as a whole increases only because it comes about from species living in an unchanging environment for a long time and gradually becoming precisely formed to it.
- Matt Gregory
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Sher,
A TOE would have to be philosophical and tie all the other sciences together metaphysically. It couldn't be mathematical because the application of mathematics is always contextual and therefore can't encompass everything at once, but always relates to one, or at most a few, aspects of something.
The more I think about a TOE, the more ridiculous it seems to me. For example, what aspects of the future would the TOE predict? The positions of objects? The speed? Acceleration? Weight? Temperature? Density? Color? Luminosity? Radioactivity? Fat content? The list goes on.The only real limitation I see is the measurement accuracy, which will never be perfect.
A TOE would have to be philosophical and tie all the other sciences together metaphysically. It couldn't be mathematical because the application of mathematics is always contextual and therefore can't encompass everything at once, but always relates to one, or at most a few, aspects of something.
- Matt Gregory
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Matt,
Hey, I never said it would be easy; only that it would be possible.
However, this makes a very important assumption that I have not mentioned until now; namely, that everything is logically supervenient on the physical realm, and therefore can be reductively explained. There is only one thing that is not yet known to have a reductive explanation, and that is consciousness. In fact, many believe it can't be done at all. This is what is now called the Hard Problem of Consciousness.
But the assumption in the previous paragraph is really contained in our original assumption that a TOE is possible at all. So I'm not really adding any new assumptions.
It really depends on whether you're a materialist or not. If you are, this whole prediction process should be possible at least in theory.
It would be mathematical, but IMO, it would have interesting philosophical implications.
I hope all this makes some sense to you, even if you disagree.
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What the TOE will let us calculate is the position and state of every single particle in the damn universe at one point in time. That is all it needs to tell us, and that is not a prediction at all. A computer program based on the TOE will do the predicting of the position and state of every particle at one point in the future. Then that data needs to be plugged into countless of other real complex programs that will go through layers and layers of complexity (it would be the exact reverse of a reductive explanation) until we reach the very high level where we can say something like "In 2030, the Chinese will be the strongest world power", or "In 2011, the world economy will be going very strong", or "In 2009, Sher will look like a model and weigh 110 pounds".The more I think about a TOE, the more ridiculous it seems to me. For example, what aspects of the future would the TOE predict? The positions of objects? The speed? Acceleration? Weight? Temperature? Density? Color? Luminosity? Radioactivity? Fat content? The list goes on.
Hey, I never said it would be easy; only that it would be possible.
However, this makes a very important assumption that I have not mentioned until now; namely, that everything is logically supervenient on the physical realm, and therefore can be reductively explained. There is only one thing that is not yet known to have a reductive explanation, and that is consciousness. In fact, many believe it can't be done at all. This is what is now called the Hard Problem of Consciousness.
But the assumption in the previous paragraph is really contained in our original assumption that a TOE is possible at all. So I'm not really adding any new assumptions.
It really depends on whether you're a materialist or not. If you are, this whole prediction process should be possible at least in theory.
You're thinking about this totally the wrong way.A TOE would have to be philosophical and tie all the other sciences together metaphysically. It couldn't be mathematical because the application of mathematics is always contextual and therefore can't encompass everything at once, but always relates to one, or at most a few, aspects of something.
It would be mathematical, but IMO, it would have interesting philosophical implications.
I hope all this makes some sense to you, even if you disagree.
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Theory of Anything?
The term Theory of Everything should not be taken quite so literally. It means a unified theory of physics, which would tie together quantum mechanics, relativity, and explain why the various physical constants are what they are (e.g., the gravitational constant, the speed of light). It would be consistent with cosmology and tell us something about the origin of the universe. It would tie together the basic forces (gravity, electromagnetic, strong nuclear, weak nuclear) and explain the Standard Model - why we see the specific particles that we do (fermions and bosons), and why they have the properties that they do (charge, mass, etc.), and perhaps tell us about other particles we haven't seen yet (because they are extremely high-energy). It would work at all scales from sub-atomic to intergalactic.Matt Gregory wrote:The more I think about a TOE, the more ridiculous it seems to me. For example, what aspects of the future would the TOE predict? The positions of objects? The speed? Acceleration? Weight? Temperature? Density? Color? Luminosity? Radioactivity? Fat content? The list goes on.
The important point is that there is no known, specified TOE. It's the Holy Grail of physics. It's generally assumed that there must be one. It's obviously not going to be simple and straightforward. The search for it has lead to the development of some new fields of mathematics.
While a TOE in physics would be a truly tremendous acheivement, I would not expect it to specify emergent properties - I wouldn't even expect it to have anything directly to say about chemistry.
You can not actually show it to be possible, since there is no TOE. The computations may end up being so complex that they can not be done in anything like real time. Also, the Uncertainty Principle does not allow us to measure the exact position and momentum of every particle simultaneously, to start from.Shahrazad wrote:Hey, I never said it would be easy; only that it would be possible.
It may be that the simplest computer to perform the operation is the universe itself, so you just have to wait and see what happens.
It means that for the scientific world, but we philosphically inclined folk don't need to pay much attention to that lot. Being dependant of maths and data, they'll never get to the required level of simplicity. They'll always be sidetracked by issues of detail.It means a unified theory of physics...
To me it just means an easily understandable abstract of the process of change.
Uniden wrote:
If you look at human kind as the natural progression of this "drift" and not some sort mistake or mule, I'm reaching beck to Asimov here, (who I barely remember...) then can you also accept the "big bang" theory?... because isn't it obvous that the natural drift of evolution has produced an animal that will soon reconstitute raw energy into form, turn mortal man into immortal man and later, in a natural act of self-preservation, preserve the preseent universe? And if this is what we naturally do then is this the first time the big bang "banged"? It must be.Increasing complexity in evolution is sometimes thought of as a "leftward drift." This refers to the fact that systems cannot get any simpler than the simplest possible state, so any change in systems will tend toward greater complexity over time. If we imagine evolution as occurring in a room with a wall to the right (the simplest possible state) and endless open space to the left, it is easy to see how anything going to the right will hit the wall while anything going to the left is free to follow its full course.
This "boundeness" in the forward direction of time is the reason that constant change will have a natural progressive tendency.
- Philosophaster
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Evolution favors organisms who can reproduce under whatever local conditions they can encounter, and it will also favor those organisms who can predict and control their environment to some degree, and thus perpetuate or even improve the conditions under which their ancestors successfully reproduced.
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MindExpansion
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Thats a good point, but thats what I meant by...That's just it. A purpose is based on an idea of a future outcome, so where could a purpose come from other than from someone's consciousness? And who's consciousness if not our own?
I like to think in questions.Are we creating a purpose through all these processes?
I must admit, I do write in a weird way, but if you think about it... it does make sense.
I have questions on this for a very long time.HUNTEDvsINVIS wrote:Of course what would happen is that, if some people could predict the future, this knowledge might be put to evil use ( probably by governments ).
If the future can be predicted, it can't be changed.
If the predictable future is changed, the prediction was wrong. And the predictable future turns out to be unpreditable.
If the future is unpreditable, how can the governments or people use it evilly?
And by the way, can you kindly tell me what TOE means?