China: The Sleeping Dragon

[Ryan Rudolph]

What affect will the unbridled economic boom in the China have on the future global economy? What happens when you take 1.3 billion people who have been suppressed economically by a totalitarian government and then suddenly you give them the leisure to live and do commerce freely according to capitalist values? What affect will this have on the world in the years to come?

Here is an interesting video from YouTube that explains the current rise of the Chinese economy: The video quality is a little poor but the audio is fine.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4jDbdtiJRVg

[Kevin Solway]

China is simply too big a problem for anyone to want to think about.

If we valued democracy - one vote one value - then China would be the most powerful country on earth simply because of its population. The U.S would be way down the list.

[Tharan]

Not if we sent in the Marines first. Kill a few. Watch some John Wayne movies.

[Blair]

It's a complete and utter catastrophe waiting to happen.

Like Post-War Japan multiplied by a hundred.

Not good in any way.

[Ryan Rudolph]

What I found interesting in the video is it suggests that because China has been the leading manufacturer of goods for the entire world for last few decades, the country has been able to stockpile billions of dollars of US currency (among many other currencies). And with the recent freedom in commerce, the people now have a growing interest in technological advancements and innovative discoveries, so I believe that China is sitting on enough US currency to buy up many of the major fortune 500 Companies such as IBM, Microsoft. This sort of drastic takeover would have extreme ramifications for the west.

This is why America has allied themselves with Turkey, Israel, And Britain as a means to re-route one of the biggest oil pipelines in the middle-east. And consequently they have build the pipeline in a manner to undercut and undermine the Chinese attempts at securing the oil reserves for themselves.

I believe there is a silent panic within the Bush administration; The Dragon sleeps, but as Kevin suggests very few want to talk about it publicly, perhaps out of fear of its awakening.

[Cory Duchesne]

It has been said that your typical westerner, when he buys a product, he boasts about how cheap he got it for.

Generally it works the other way around in China. They tend to boast about how much they spent.

(so I've been told by a seemingly intelligent source).

[millipodium]

No shit. This is the fucking plan. This is the new world order. Subjugation of the west through corporate takeover. The easterners are already totalitarian like the Illuminists like it. It's just us pesky "free christian people". We will be sold out, and if we try to react, branded as christian zealots and persecuted

Thank you, Kissinger, you're swell.

[millipodium]

It has been said that your typical westerner, when he buys a product, he boasts about how cheap he got it for.

Generally it works the other way around in China. They tend to boast about how much they spent.

(so I've been told by a seemingly intelligent source).

This is just a declasse habit of the nouveau riche. They're bragging. It'll wear off.

[Cory Duchesne]

Mill wrote,

Thank you, Kissinger, you're swell.

Didn't he win the nobel peace prize?

What did he do to earn that?

I watched a documentary on him. He was depicted as a war criminal.

[millipodium]

Mill wrote,

Thank you, Kissinger, you're swell.

Didn't he win the nobel peace prize?

What did he do to earn that?

I watched a documentary on him. He was depicted as a war criminal.

he's an amoral power monger. Keeping one totalitarian nation viable in the world is necessary to reduce the others to totalitarianism.


This is the discourse: "we must compete. we must lower wages, we must increase hours, freedom is a luxury we can't afford. We have to be fascist to compete with fascists. Face it. Borders are a barrier to trade, they must be dissolved."

[Ryan Rudolph]

Cory wrote:

It has been said that your typical westerner, when he buys a product, he boasts about how cheap he got it for.
Generally it works the other way around in China. They tend to boast about how much they spent.
(so I've been told by a seemingly intelligent source).

And then Milli wrote:

This is just a declasse habit of the nouveau riche. They're bragging. It'll wear off.

The Chinese people are behaving as the Europeans behaved when mercantile capitalism/industrialism arouse many centuries ago.

It is a crude form of distinction that will slowly become much more refined. Currently, in elitist Chinese restaurants, you will pay 10 times the amount for a soft drink that you can buy for the same price down the street in a lower class restaurant. Over time this will evolve and the elitist restaurants will bring in dishes and goods that they feel are higher quality than the lower classe's services and products.

Their distinction will eventually become more clever. Many wealthy people in the west horde their money and brag about how cheap they bought a weekend vacation at and how enjoyable it was.

It is like saying: I had this much fun for only this price. China haven’t reached this refined stage of corruption yet. They are still children when it comes to corruption.

They are like a growing child that will become increasingly corrupt over time; Statisticians suggest that China has lost millions of rice farmers since the capitalist boom because they are all storming into the cities with the fantasies of riches and fortune. Europe experienced a similar urban expansion during the industrial revolution and the boom of mercantile capitalism. And the dangerous part is the Chinese people represent a huge chuck of the world’s population so if they collectively make decisions, it affects us all.

Therefore Collectively speaking China is much more immature than the west. They are the envious child that wants what the father has. And they may just buy everything that the father has with the allowance that they have been secretly saving from him over the years. Boy if this happens, it will sure piss the father off!

Overall, the Chinese government is in shambles; they have some sort of corrupt capitalist dictatorship established with a diluted communist ideology that is slowly crumbling away. Very strange indeed.

Perhaps a sleeping dragon is a bad metaphor for China. China is more like a baby dragon that has just begun to puncture its limbs through the fragile eggshell that has kept it sheltered while the Parent (West) has been unwittingly incubating it.

[millipodium]

Cory wrote:

It has been said that your typical westerner, when he buys a product, he boasts about how cheap he got it for.
Generally it works the other way around in China. They tend to boast about how much they spent.
(so I've been told by a seemingly intelligent source).

And then Milli wrote:

This is just a declasse habit of the nouveau riche. They're bragging. It'll wear off.

The Chinese people are behaving as the Europeans behaved when mercantile capitalism/industrialism arouse many centuries ago.

It is a crude form of distinction that will slowly become much more refined. Currently, in elitist Chinese restaurants, you will pay 10 times the amount for a soft drink that you can buy for the same price down the street in a lower class restaurant. Over time this will evolve and basically the elitist restaurants will bring in dishes and goods that they feel are higher quality than the lower classes merchandise.

Their distinction will eventually become more clever. Many rich people in the west horde and penny pinch their money bragging about how cheap they got a weekend vacation at; and how enjoyable it was.

It is like saying: I had this much fun for only this price. China haven’t reached this refined stage of corruption yet. They are still children when it comes to corruption.

They are like a growing child that will become increasingly corrupt over time; Statisticians suggest that China has lost millions of rice farmers since the capitalist boom because they are all storming into the cities with the fantasies of riches and fortune. Europe went experienced a similar urban expansion during the industrial revolution and the boom of mercantile capitalism. And the dangerous part is the Chinese people represent a huge chuck of the world’s population so if they collectively make decisions, it affects us all.

Therefore Collectively speaking China is much more immature than the west. They are the envious child that wants what the father has. And they may just buy everything that the father has with the allowance that they have been secretly saving from the father over the years. Boy this is going to piss off the father!

Overall, the Chinese government is in shambles; they have some sort of corrupt capitalist dictatorship established with a diluted communist ideology that is slowly crumbling away. Very strange indeed.

The chinese are children when it comes to corruption? What do you think they learn from living in totalitarian states? Life is fair?

You said some real idiotic things uptop. I'm sorry to have to be the one...

[Ryan Rudolph]

Millipodium wrote:

The chinese are children when it comes to corruption? What do you think they learn from living in totalitarian states? Life is fair?

You don’t understand what I mean; in my view the maturity of corruption has a relationship to the sophistication of one’s government/conventional morality – law and the type of economic structure.

For instance:

China has a Vulgar, more barbaric government whereas America
has a much more refined orderly government.

Both are corrupt, but the USA is further along in the logical corruption progression that you see above.

In a sense, the USA is the parent to China who is the child.

Everything the child learns, they learn from the Parent. So based on this model China is still a child when it comes to corruption.

They are abandoning old vulgar forms of corruption in favor of more fanciful ones that the west has.

And what I find interesting that that they are emulating the western economic structure so quickly that they governing systems hasn't had time to catch up.

It is odd that they are successfully creating a booming capitalist economy overnight without a stable democratic government to support it.

it seems that the economic revolution is happening so quickly that they are skipping some of the logical steps in the process that most of the western countries went through more slowly.

[millipodium]

Millipodium wrote:

The chinese are children when it comes to corruption? What do you think they learn from living in totalitarian states? Life is fair?

You don’t understand what I mean; in my view the maturity of corruption has a relationship to the sophistication of one’s government/conventional morality – law etc.

For instance:

China has a Vulgar, more barbaric government whereas China
has a much more refined orderly government.

Both are corrupt, but the USA is further along in the logical corruption progression that you see above.

In a sense, the USA is the parent to China who is the child.

Everything the child learns, they learn from the Parent. So based on this model China is still a child when it comes to corruption.

They are abandoning old vulgar forms of corruption in favor of more fanciful ones that the west has.

You're saying we're more corrupt because we're more economically developed, but corruption has to do with governing philosophy and the philosophies of the powerful. In china, if you don't know someone, you're WAY more cut out of power than you are here, not having relationships with the hegemon. That's more corrupt. Totalitarianism of any strain is the pinnacle of corruption. These metrics lie on separate axes.


Sometimes there has been a causal connection, though they're still different things. Oftentimes, totalitarianism has the effect of stifling growth, but thanks to large coporate american contracts for slave made goods, it seems to be working out for them this time.

[sky]

china is many cultures layered

today's china contains the china of wise ancient china way more ancient than western of great wisdom

it is in their dna

so it could though unsettling be good philosophically

some of the chinese sages of yore were not exactly second rate

in the meantime it would be a really good idea for anyone in school at this time to take chinese as their required language

i have never been to mainland china but i have been to hong kong and is the most amazing place i have ever visited

[sky]

And what I find interesting that that they are emulating the western economic structure so quickly that they governing systems hasn't had time to catch up.

It is odd that they are successfully creating a booming capitalist economy overnight without a stable democratic government to support it.

it seems that the economic revolution is happening so quickly that they are skipping some of the logical steps in the process that most of the western countries went through more slowly.

money changes everything

[millipodium]

china is many cultures layered

today's china contains the china of wise ancient china way more ancient than western of great wisdom

it is in their dna

so it could though unsettling be good philosophically

some of the chinese sages of yore were not exactly second rate

in the meantime it would be a really good idea for anyone in school at this time to take chinese as their required language

i have never been to mainland china but i have been to hong kong and is the most amazing place i have ever visited

Well it sucks because it's a fascist totalitarian state. Pretty dragons at festivals be damned.

[Ryan Rudolph]

Milli wrote:

You're saying we're more corrupt because we're more economically developed, but corruption has to do with governing philosophy and the philosophies of the powerful.

I’m saying that China’s corruption has been more vulgar, barbaric, but they are quickly emulating the west meaning their corruption is slowly becoming increasingly clever, sophisticated.

A sophisticated corrupt county such as the USA is closer to producing a community rational human beings than a totalitarian country like China.

And Milli, there is more to corruption than just the philosophy of the government.

The quality of the commodities in a society are a huge part of corruption. The more liberal a government is to the people, the freer those people are to consume products according to their own desires.

The problem is that many human desires are incredibly feeble because we are easily conditioned by gross and vulgar pleasures.

Things such as fast food, casinos, bars, etc emerge in free societies that are not controlled by totalitarian governments, but those societies are still corrupt precisely because people are unwittingly enslaved to work for commodities that they don’t need. They are still incredibly animalistic/asleep and ignorant.

To be controlled by a totalitarian government is one form of corruption, however to be controlled by your desires is another form of corruption.

Overall the democratic capitalist society is superior to an totalitarian regime because in the west there is a greater chance for rational beings to thrive, but also the forms of sensual corruption will be much more intense in the west compared to totalitarian regimes where people are less free to manufacture what they desire.

Sky wrote:

in the meantime it would be a really good idea for anyone in school at this time to take chinese as their required language

Eventually we may have to learn Chinese anyway – once they buy up all the major corporations and establish business centers throughout the world then Chinese may become just as important of a language as English.

Sky wrote:

i have never been to mainland china but i have been to hong kong and is the most amazing place i have ever visited

Yea Amazing – in the same way one becomes dizzy after staring at a overpopulated colony of mindless ants.

For christ's sakes, would someone please neuter China! Hey Milli, you hold her down and I'll give her a flying elbow drop right into the baby maker!

[millipodium]

Now you're talking about sensual corruption, which is more accurately called hedonism. Now you sound like a priest, or one of the communists themselves finger pointing at the west the distract from their own barbarity.

"Yes we have gulags, but they are fat and lusty!"

[Ryan Rudolph]

Sky wrote:

money changes everything

Yes and no, It is the values that change things. The change in values by the government allowed money to free flow through the civilization more freely.

China was incredibly controlled and poverty stricken due to the values that were forcefully imposed by the government.

As soon as the government changed their values, the economic revolution started.

As I have stated, it is a unprecented phenomenon because the people radically changed the economy quicker than the government evolved to support it.

The government still behaves as if they control the people when in fact the people are pretty much governing themselves with the exception of the occasional annoyance from the government to delude themselves into thinking that they have some sort of control over what is happening there.

It seems that as soon as the values of the country changed, the economy sped up out of control like a runaway freight train - and the government officials are dumbfoundly running behind it trying to catch up.

It is as if the government did not possess the foresight to predict the accelerated chain of causal events that have unfolded and will continue to unfold more rapidly then any economic revolution that has ever occurred in humanities history.

[sky]

milli

Well it sucks because it's a fascist totalitarian state. Pretty dragons at festivals be damned.

true it is for now but as ryan says

As I have stated, it is a unprecedented phenomenon because the people radically changed the economy quicker than the government evolved to support it.

The government still behaves as if they control the people when in fact the people are pretty much governing themselves with the exception of the occasional annoyance from the government to delude themselves into thinking that they have some sort of control over what is happening there.

It seems that as soon as the values of the country changed, the economy sped up out of control like a runaway freight train - and the government officials are dumbfoundly running behind it trying to catch up.

It is as if the government did not possess the foresight to predict the accelerated chain of causal events that have unfolded and will continue to unfold more rapidly then any economic revolution that has ever occurred in humanities history.

things change it is the china of the future that is the concern

and their future is faster

@ryan

you are only going back to recent history the point is that china has a much longer history to draw upon and were highly advanced philosophically at one time and were the first to invent/discover a number of important things

have you been to hong kong is this empirical data

i was raised in the far east i don't see why china must absolutely necessarily be our enemy though i understand what is being said

[Ryan Rudolph]

Sky wrote:

i was raised in the far east i don't see why china must absolutely necessarily be our enemy though i understand what is being said

China is not ‘my’ enemy. “I” have no enemies, however China has the enough power to drastically alter the global economy; especially for the west.

China is only regarded as an enemy to those who have power in the west and those who are frightened of losing their power.

I have nothing to lose in all this. I’ll accept anything that causally happens.

There is no 'will' left in me to have enemies.

[Cory Duchesne]

Ryan wrote:

There is no 'will' left in me to have enemies.

Wasn't your last post an act of will?

[Ryan Rudolph]

Cory wrote:

Wasn't your last post an act of will?

‘will’ meaning a force that feels threatened by opposition or enemies.

I suppose it would be sloppy to suggest ‘I’ have no will.
It depends on how you define the word. Typical definitions of ‘will’ include a person that is not easily swayed; so in this context you could suggest that a rational man is strong willed meaning he is not easily swayed into doing something he doesn’t want to do.

The confusion is that the word 'will' has been thrown around interchangably with the word 'self' and many others.

So there is still a will, but that ‘will’ has no emotion investment in future outcomes.

Moreover You can only have enemies if you emotionally prefer something to be other than what it presently is.

[Cory Duchesne]

China is only regarded as an enemy to those who have power in the west and those who are frightened of losing their power.

I would say that the consequence to having values, is having opposition to those values. That which is in opposition to your values is the enemy.

Enemy meaning: a harmful, malign opposition.

If I value freeing myself from my the power sex has over me, then obviously horny woman and pornography are my enemy.

If I value truth, then dishonesty is obviously my enemy.

If I value having the freedom to act rationally then obviously a totalitarian regime that forces me to work like a slave is going to be my enemy.

Moreover You can only have enemies if you emotionally prefer something to be other than what it presently is.

Isnt that what the emotion of fear is? Isnt fear an emotion that arises when we prefer a situation to be other than what it is?