Shock: Men becoming more womanly

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Diebert van Rhijn
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Shock: Men becoming more womanly

Post by Diebert van Rhijn » Wed Sep 13, 2006 4:10 am

Nothing really new I suppose but does this mean it's getting increasingly less effective to talk about the 'masculine' and 'feminine' in philosophy?

A quick translation made by myself from the national news wire.
'Men are becoming more womanly'

September 12th 2006

AMSTERDAM - The Dutch man differs way less from the Dutch woman when it revolves around typical feminine affairs. Men are spending each month more on clothing than women. On top of that he's spending each month more on cosmetics. As well the so-called 'feminine insecurity' increased.

This according to a nation wide research that the magazine "Men's Health" and polling agency Trendbox performed amongst 780 men and women between 18 and 50 years. Both conclude that men have become more conscious of their appearance [isn't this a contradiction in terms somehow? - Diebert]. He gives himself a higher grade than five years ago in the same research: a 7.3. In 2001 it was 7.2

At least 75% of the males thinks his looks are important, but to make a good appearance he pays quite a bit. Each month he spends 106 euro on clothing. This is an increase of 50% compared to 2001. The females only spent 69 euro in the same period. The same goes for care products. The men spent 27 euro a month, the women 23 euro.

Also in behavior the male becomes more feminine. Like 54% feel themselves more secure after he spends time on his appearance. Five year ago that was only 33%. A larger group gives attention to looks and 61% of the men thinks he shows who he is by his clothing. In 2001 only 45% thought that way.

The males are more concerned about his looks in company and at parties or for sexual performance in general, the researchers conclude. To battle this insecurity he fiddles with his body. He attends the gym way more often than in 2001. That percentage increased from 8% to 23%. . Also he shaves not only his face anymore, but also the nose (58%), privates (41%), the armpits and the ears (30%).

Editor-in-chief from Men's Health Jan Peter Jansen says that the Dutch man has become more aware of himself in quite a short time. The phenomenon of 'metrosexuality' has been a major influence. Jansen:" And added to that is now the übersexual element. The metro-man was narcissistic and fed by insecurity that he forced upon himself. The empathic in males has returned, in spite of his high level of self-care. But that has become standard by now.


Empathic? Where did that conclusion come from. Feeling pity over his own appearance? Perhaps this whole research stinks even while the trend is easy to believe somehow - the feminine rulez.

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sschaula
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Post by sschaula » Wed Sep 13, 2006 5:16 am

No matter what happens, you can't make a man into a woman. Caring about clothes and stuff like that is only surface level stuff.
- Scott

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Rhett
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Post by Rhett » Wed Sep 13, 2006 12:47 pm

.
scott wrote:No matter what happens, you can't make a man into a woman. Caring about clothes and stuff like that is only surface level stuff.
If civilisation continues to reward the feminine in males then they could potentially become much like females. Large changes could happen very quickly in their personalities, say in a generation, though further change would be slower due to genetics.

Just as each individual has peaks and troughs of mind, so too does society and culture.

.

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Diebert van Rhijn
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Post by Diebert van Rhijn » Wed Sep 13, 2006 9:37 pm

sschaula wrote:No matter what happens, you can't make a man into a woman. Caring about clothes and stuff like that is only surface level stuff.
Scott, caring about 'surface level stuff' is exactly what makes a man into a woman, and not much else.

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sschaula
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Post by sschaula » Thu Sep 14, 2006 2:56 am

What I am saying is that at the core, men will always be men despite their actions. They'll always have that masculine principle, which will always play a role in determining their actions and thoughts.

Men don't become women on any level, ever. At least that's my opinion.
- Scott

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Post by BJMcGilly » Thu Sep 14, 2006 4:14 am

Scott wrote:
What I am saying is that at the core, men will always be men despite their actions. They'll always have that masculine principle, which will always play a role in determining their actions and thoughts.

Men don't become women on any level, ever. At least that's my opinion.
Hormones make men, men and women, women. The large infusion of bovine female hormones translating into their marketed byproducts, ie milk, cheese, yogurt, meat...etc, most definitely effect human beings. Athletes looking for an edge have in the past been known to inject the hormone testosterone derived from animals. Not only do these effect the human body, they lead to cancer. The latest breakthrough in science has been the production and adminstration of bio-identical hormones. Meaning, instead of injecting smiliar hormones to those naturally produced in humans, those very same molecular compounds secreted by human glands have been synthetically derived and are used to stem the effects of aging.

The reason that little media attention is garnered by this endeavor, I think, is due to the fact that these are naturally occuring compounds in the human body, and so are not able to be patented by the pharmaceutical giants.

No patent = no cornering of profits.

Anyway, what I mean to say is that very shortly I think it possible that those on this forum who so readily bash the use of generalizations concerning "men" and "women" may very well have their wish. There may well be no more differences between men and women in the nearing centuries. The survival of wisdom looks grim.

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sschaula
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Post by sschaula » Thu Sep 14, 2006 5:07 am

The differences are genetic, which means that it's very hard to change. Do you think it'd be possible for scientists to create an injection which could permeate its way throughout every cell in the body, throughout every nucleus, and change the DNA so that it's XY if it was previously XX?

I don't see it happening anytime soon.
- Scott

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Ryan Rudolph
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Post by Ryan Rudolph » Thu Sep 14, 2006 6:09 am

Scott wrote:
The differences are genetic, which means that it's very hard to change. Do you think it'd be possible for scientists to create an injection which could permeate its way throughout every cell in the body, throughout every nucleus, and change the DNA so that it's XY if it was previously XX?
I agree with Scott on this one, it is not as easy as it sounds. Hormone injections may allow men to behave like women and women to behave like men, but the fact of the matter is that unless the DNA changes, you would need to supply the individual with a steady supply of hormone supplements to sustain the gender change.

This sort of service would be incredibly labour intensive and would only appeal to the rich elite types that have fruity fetishes. Guys like Elton John maybe interested, in other words: only the rich genetic misfits.

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Kevin Solway
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Post by Kevin Solway » Thu Sep 14, 2006 10:58 pm

Chemicals in the environment which mimic female hormones is a real concern:

Minnesota Researchers Track Hormone-Disrupted Fish

Hormones in the environment: how the facts were covered up

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Leyla Shen
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Post by Leyla Shen » Fri Sep 15, 2006 12:08 am

I have only looked at the second article, and in about a second flat notice a glaring anomaly between the article and your opening statement.

Kevin wrote:
Chemicals in the environment which mimic female hormones is a real concern:
Excerpt from the article:
They mimic the hormones produced by the female ovaries and the male testes in animals, which regulate growth and reproduction.
Do you have any logical explanation for what appears to be a severe reading/comprehension problem?

(I reserve the right to review as and if necessary this comment upon reading the first link posted.)

.

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Kevin Solway
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Post by Kevin Solway » Fri Sep 15, 2006 12:21 am

Males produce female hormones (estrogens) in their testes.

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Leyla Shen
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Post by Leyla Shen » Fri Sep 15, 2006 12:29 am

The concern as @ 26 March 2006:
Background: Many synthetic chemicals have been identified as known or suspected endocrine disruptors (EDCs). The long term impact of the potential interactions in human health is unknown. These chemicals are used in foods, personal care products, prescription drugs, household cleaners, and lawn care products. They may have estrogenic or antiestrogenic actions, androgenic or anti-androgenic and /or disrupt adrenal and/or thyroid functions.
.

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Kevin Solway
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Post by Kevin Solway » Fri Sep 15, 2006 12:35 am

Good point. I didn't read the second article very well.

I didn't get much past the first sentence: "Every male fish in some European rivers shows pronounced female characteristics".

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sschaula
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Post by sschaula » Fri Sep 15, 2006 2:20 am

Well first of all, we're talking about human beings. There may be some species of animals which can change sex more easily.

Secondly, just because males have estrogen in them, doesn't mean that they're becoming feminine. The body is much more complex than that.
- Scott

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Ryan Rudolph
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Post by Ryan Rudolph » Fri Sep 15, 2006 2:38 am

Diebert wrote:
Perhaps this whole research stinks even while the trend is easy to believe somehow.
I’m inclined to suggest that men are not becoming any more feminine now than what they were thousands of years ago, perhaps it is the way in which femininity expresses itself in men that is different now because of the drastic changes in culture.

For instance: During the days of the Roman Expire soldiers spent hours polishing their armour, swords and so on so that they would be aesthetically pleasing for the women as they marched through Townsquare.

Nowdays men go to the gym twice a week to bulk up, then they head down the supermall to buy designer jeans and tight shirts which reveal their muscles.

At the university I see these muscle boys parading around campus checking out the women and I suspect this is quite similar to how the soldiers would have acted in the Roman Empire.

An old male friend of mine will still spend hours looking at himself in the mirror after he has bought an outfit to try to make himself look perfect. Roman soldiers were also known to spend long periods of time trying to get their sword and armour to hang just right.

Very little difference, same dynamic, only culture has changed and the outward feminine expression has changed slightly with it.

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Post by BJMcGilly » Fri Sep 15, 2006 3:33 am

Scott,

In an effort on my part not to slip into a "yes it is" / "no it's not" argument, I present the following:

the chemistry of the body and the influence of hormones at any age cannot be denied. It is the introduction of hormones to the infant in utero that decides the sex. Also, it is the secretion of testosterone from the testes that makes a man aggressive, single-minded and focused. Without hormonal impetus, I sincerely doubt the flame for truth would ever be ignited.

What in a man, do you think, separates men from women?

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Post by BJMcGilly » Fri Sep 15, 2006 4:15 am

sschaula wrote:Well first of all, we're talking about human beings. There may be some species of animals which can change sex more easily.

Secondly, just because males have estrogen in them, doesn't mean that they're becoming feminine. The body is much more complex than that.
It is mental sex, or the psychological aspects of mind which need be thought of here. Mental sex, to my mind, denotes whether one tacitly receives and accepts without challenge the thoughts and ideas from another, or one sets forth, recreates and reasons through thoughts for one's own self. These are respectively the feminine and masculine aspects of mind.

These mental aspects are directly effected by the presence of hormones in one's body. Mental sex can be changed by an influx of feminine hormones, or simply the lack of masculine hormones. The world is an idea, and with a drop of testosterone the world can become a better place.

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