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Kelly Jones
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Post by Kelly Jones » Wed Aug 30, 2006 10:19 pm

Hi Scott,

sschaula wrote:What is the purpose of figuring it all out?
I reckon your reasoning sounds fine, up to a certain point. Any motivation or purpose for Truth, e.g. "dissolution of karma", distorts it.

Realising this - as you have - is where most people flee screaming in the opposite direction. Submitting the ego to Nature is tough cookies.

I'm not going to blather on about this, but do my best to respond to a few statements that struck me as incomplete:


Wisdom is knowing the absolute truth, and living it. What is the absolute truth? Well, it's that all things exist fragilly. A thing appears and goes. It's all coming from the one totality.
This isn't really true. Things don't really exist - there is only the Totality.

Submitting the finite self, and its human needs, to this absolute truth is the beginning of wisdom. Very few care to do or even to know about it. It doesn't seem to deter the quirky freak of nature.


Why seek something that doesn't even exist? The absolute truth is changeless. It's impossible to become what you are. When you are in ignorance, of course enlightenment exists. You feel so stupid and are so dumb...but when the moment comes, nothing happens. You are still the same human.
One has to think, to create an intellectual understanding of absolutely everything, that is logical, in order to deconstruct old faulty intellectualisations.

Wisdom is the Totality, but although it is distinct from no-wisdom, it is not an illusion. It is not mistaken.


Even more...is philosophy a hobby or your entire existence?
It's not philosophy if one isn't planning to go all the way.


Even if it's not through money...but if it's just all about power and a feeling of self worth, I don't want to have anything to do with it.
That's sounds sane to me.


That's what people do here. They come here to stroke their egos and feel powerful, when in real life they probably are lacking. At least one female, Kelly, has admitted somewhat to this. She says she's driven a lot by having a broken childhood. It was the first bit of truth I saw on this forum, even though Marsha thought she was just being self indulgent in her attempt at gaining sympathy.
Ego-feeding is inevitable in the spiritual life - if you are not able to rest easily in Truth. You would literally die without having to reinforce the notion that one's self is a capable, resilient, confident, intelligent thing.

When Dan puts my bio up, you'll have a chance to see a bit more into my personal reasons for promoting psychotherapy. In general terms, it's to help repair a fragile, yet extremely hardy, self-image, so it can then be slowly destroyed, calmly and completely.

Ego-feeding by an intelligent person is essentially a gentle low-level psychotherapy.

There's no difference from the crying girl who wants to know why she can't __________, than from the philosopher pondering about the nature of everything. None whatsoever.
The crying girl has the very hardy, but extremely fragile ego, and the philosopher has hardly any ego or desire, so they are different.

.

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Ryan Rudolph
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Post by Ryan Rudolph » Wed Aug 30, 2006 10:41 pm

Kelly Jones wrote:
When Dan puts my bio up, you'll have a chance to see a bit more into my personal reasons for promoting psychotherapy. In general terms, it's to help repair a fragile, yet extremely hardy, self-image, so it can then be slowly destroyed, calmly and completely.

Ego-feeding by an intelligent person is essentially a gentle low-level psychotherapy.
You don’t need to help anyone repair anything, when someone is suffering that is the ideal time to rip into them with truthful observations/facts pertaining to the world/self, if they are strong enough to accept the truth then they will change, and if they are not then they’ll remain a sappy insecure ego.

For christ’s sakes Kelly there is no five step program to wisdom.

You’re trying to implement a method or a system to impose on people. All these systems have desperately failed and will continue to desperately fail for eternity.

The psychotherapist is an unnecessary vocation.
Last edited by Ryan Rudolph on Thu Aug 31, 2006 5:11 am, edited 1 time in total.

millipodium

Post by millipodium » Wed Aug 30, 2006 10:50 pm

cosmic_prostitute wrote:
You’re trying to implement a method or a system to impose on people. All these systems have desperately failed and will continue to desperately fail for eternity.

The psychotherapist is an unnecessary vocation.

It all comes down to genetic superiority, a few have what it takes but most don’t.
Wow. cp loves the truth. Unlike most of his buddhist clinglings.

Psychiatrists and psychologists are a scourge, much like lawyers.

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Post by Kelly Jones » Wed Aug 30, 2006 11:57 pm

cosmic_prostitute wrote:You don’t need to help anyone repair anything, when someone is suffering that is the ideal time to rip into them with truthful observations/facts pertaining to the world/self, if they are strong enough to accept the truth then they will change, and if they are not then they’ll remain a sappy insecure ego.
My response to Ryan:

I look for stimulants to my spiritual development. I respond to ideas that I'm interested in. I am not concerned about anyone else's development, since I only know the truth about mine. Whatever appears in my mind is what my brain interprets - it's all my own stuff. In other words - will-less God.


My response to cosmic_prostitute:

Hi sap, you desperate failure for eternity. Do you have an obsession with promoting inferiority or what?

.

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DHodges
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Is it wise to be wise?

Post by DHodges » Thu Aug 31, 2006 12:15 am

sschaula wrote:Does it bring freedom? Freedom from what? Ignorance? Perhaps...but then it only frees you into the prison of wisdom. There's no freedom for the wise person, because they are bound by truths and no imagination. Finding truth cannot bring freedom.
This is kind of what I've been saying, or thinking, for a while. Truth does not bring happiness. There's nothing in it for you. Thanks for stating this so clearly. You've been very direct here.
What is good about wisdom?
If you want the good, seek the good. Truth is just truth - "beyond" good and evil. If the good is your goal, then truth is just a tool. But - don't you need some wisdom to know what is good and what is not?
I know, because I have seen the world entirely this way for a while now and it's nothing special. If there truly exists an enlightenment of the mind, this is not it...and I doubt there is a true enlightenment.
Haven't Zen masters said that complete and total enlightenment was "nothing special"? (Mountains are mountains, it turns out.)
We have one life, and it's all about how you want to spend your days. Being driven by an illogical desire to dispel all ignorance, or just simply chopping your wood and carrying your water...Dan you're absolutely right. It's fine, and each person's values and goals are their own.
I must say that I have central heating and plumbing, and spend very little time chopping wood or carrying water. But I go about my daily routine; I do what is necessary, and try to do it with mindfulness.

I don't see it as a desire to dispel ignorance... more like, when the attachment to delusion drops away, truth is what's left. Delusion actually takes a certain amount of energy to maintain. The truth goes on, on its own, with or without you.
Even more...is philosophy a hobby or your entire existence? Do you come on here and think about it constantly, yet still only keep it as a hobby? I've noticed it's easy to do that.

If you take it seriously, eventually it is reflected in how you live. It may take a while.
...because it's easy to put this forum and all of the thinking you do into a nice little box, and never actually live your life.
How can you NOT live your life?
Anyway, this forum (in various incarnations) has had tremendous influence on how I actually live my life - in particular, in breaking free of Woman.
Yes, it took a long time.
I didn't see it that way. I would like it if everyone here admitted they were losers. I'll admit it...I don't have many friends. I kind of suck as a person.
I have less friends than I used to. Generally I put less and less work into maintaining those relationships. Same with family. That stuff has kind of been falling away. That's what happens when you lose your attachment to Woman. It falls away. You can't push it away.

Clearly I'm turning into the cranky old man that lives by himself, has no friends and is considered kind of wierd. (I'm okay with that.)
That can drive someone even more so to seek out "wisdom". But once again, such a thing is pointless. It's impossible to make yourself seek it out. It's just a driving force inside of each of us. Yes, every last person alive has this. It forces their every action.
I've been reading some Lovecraft-style fiction lately, and I think it's an interesting metaphor here. The way things are structured in the Lovecraft universe, the more you learn about how things actually are, the more you go insane. You are safe from the horrors lurking in other dimensions, until you can see them. Then they can see you, and it is too late; and the horror of it drives you insane. This is acted out again and again in the Lovecraft mythos. There is always someone who is seeking out this forbidden knowledge, and generally ends up being destroyed by it, one way or another.

I feel kind of like that guy, continuing on, seeking after knowledge, knowing that in the end it will destroy me. How can the ego seek out the death of the ego? But, somehow, that is who I am, that's how the story goes. Is that better, or worse, than a story where I get married and have kids? Have a life like most Americans? I'm no longer capable of doing that.

The only way I can see it, is that it is wise to be wise (and to seek wisdom), and it's foolish to be foolish (unwise). Kinda by definition.

Beyond that, it's a matter of values. What do you value, and why? If you value, say, being in good health more than you value understanding metaphysics, then maybe your time is better spent researching nuitrition and doing pushups.

Philosophy is not for everyone, and in fact it is for almost no one.

There's also the issue of mental health. Constantly questioning your most basic understanding of reality puts a certain strain on your mind that's unhealthy. The human mind wants to have a certain understanding of the world that it can take for granted, as beyond doubt - that's part of the human need for religions. To keep pressing in that direction is unnatural. For most people, it's better to have some story, even if it involves Zeus or Jehovah or whatever, than to have no story and say "I don't know," or realize your understanding is partial.

But when you've gone this far - can you find a comfortable story, and stop there? Maybe one based in science, with a Big Bang and so on? Or will you just continue to question, always?

millipodium

Re: Is it wise to be wise?

Post by millipodium » Thu Aug 31, 2006 12:24 am

DHodges wrote: If you want the good, seek the good. Truth is just truth - "beyond" good and evil. If the good is your goal, then truth is just a tool. But - don't you need some wisdom to know what is good and what is not?


It's called morality. Look into it. People have been studying it for years.

Most people against morality are just closet criminals who want to be worshipped and admired without doing the work. They feel their non attachment makes them special. Really they're just victims of psychological trauma, exalting their diseased status.

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Post by sschaula » Thu Aug 31, 2006 2:31 am

Dave,
This is kind of what I've been saying, or thinking, for a while. Truth does not bring happiness. There's nothing in it for you. Thanks for stating this so clearly. You've been very direct here.
Good to see we're on the same page, Dave.
If you want the good, seek the good. Truth is just truth - "beyond" good and evil. If the good is your goal, then truth is just a tool. But - don't you need some wisdom to know what is good and what is not?
When you have the most absolute wisdom, and absolutely no illogical thoughts...then you are beyond good and evil, like you said. So you can't have some wisdom to know good from bad. It will destroy those two things.

To know good and bad, it takes emotion. What makes you feel bad, is bad. Truth denies everything human in us, including emotion.

But it's impossible to hold back emotion. We are all human, and no one is any greater. No one is perfectly enlightened, at least in my opinion.
Haven't Zen masters said that complete and total enlightenment was "nothing special"? (Mountains are mountains, it turns out.)
They say a lot of shit, and most of it means very little to me. I don't know why they're praised for their wisdom.
I must say that I have central heating and plumbing, and spend very little time chopping wood or carrying water. But I go about my daily routine; I do what is necessary, and try to do it with mindfulness.
As a means to truth? Because trying to do something is totally based in ignorance, and being based in ignorance is not a good way to truthfulness.
I don't see it as a desire to dispel ignorance... more like, when the attachment to delusion drops away, truth is what's left. Delusion actually takes a certain amount of energy to maintain. The truth goes on, on its own, with or without you.
This is true.
If you take it seriously, eventually it is reflected in how you live. It may take a while.
I can't take it seriously anymore. Sure, it's a part of me to follow this course of thought now. It's a natural thing, and it encompasses all of my day without my trying...but to take figuring out the truth seriously is pretty ignorant.
How can you NOT live your life?


Of course, this is just a way of saying something else. Living your life, in the sense that I meant it, was to not be stuck in a rut.
Anyway, this forum (in various incarnations) has had tremendous influence on how I actually live my life - in particular, in breaking free of Woman.
Yes, it took a long time.
Same for me, but now I don't see a need to break free from Woman anymore. I talk to a bunch of them now. I'd date one. We are all human.

Perhaps you meant your mental attachment to Woman...yes this is probably a good thing to break free of, as long as it's done healthfully. Not the way it's been done in the past at this forum.

Recently, the discussions on this topic have been pretty sane and reasonable.
I have less friends than I used to. Generally I put less and less work into maintaining those relationships. Same with family. That stuff has kind of been falling away. That's what happens when you lose your attachment to Woman. It falls away. You can't push it away.

Clearly I'm turning into the cranky old man that lives by himself, has no friends and is considered kind of wierd. (I'm okay with that.)
When you let things fall away, you're being feminine. Your personality has turned into a barren landscape, or a gigantic vacuum. Masculinity is making something of yourself.

Our lives are totally in our hands, and if we throw up our hands in the air, and say "Truth controls it all, I don't!" then we stop being in charge of who we are and we become whatever way the world wants us to become...which usually turns out to be a boring, pessimistic asshole.

Philosophy should be a means to an end, rather than the end itself. Because then the philosophy is taken in a masculine manner, rather than a feminine manner. It should enrich one's life, and not suck it dry.

By the way, I've seen myself going in the same direction as you. I am asking myself if that's what I actually want to become.
I've been reading some Lovecraft-style fiction lately, and I think it's an interesting metaphor here. The way things are structured in the Lovecraft universe, the more you learn about how things actually are, the more you go insane. You are safe from the horrors lurking in other dimensions, until you can see them. Then they can see you, and it is too late; and the horror of it drives you insane. This is acted out again and again in the Lovecraft mythos. There is always someone who is seeking out this forbidden knowledge, and generally ends up being destroyed by it, one way or another.
This was probably an unconscious attempt at defending himself from the truth. The truth is, though, that the truth isn't so bad. It's what you do with it that can be devastating and horrific.
I feel kind of like that guy, continuing on, seeking after knowledge, knowing that in the end it will destroy me. How can the ego seek out the death of the ego?
Then we have been riding in the same boat. I'm sick of being taken, so I'm jumping out and swimming where I want to go.

It's easy for the ego to seek out the death of itself...when it reaches the point where it's sought everything else out and it's still dissatisfied.

But will it ever die? I don't think so. It would take some great honesty, which is very rare.
But, somehow, that is who I am, that's how the story goes. Is that better, or worse, than a story where I get married and have kids? Have a life like most Americans? I'm no longer capable of doing that.
If it's better or worse is all determined by what you would like to do with yourself. Being at this forum makes it hard to come back to our old selves. We build up so many barriers against certain things...like being wrong, or like getting married. This place can make a person argumentative and pissed off all the time. It doesn't have to, but it seems to do that.

Is this what we want for ourselves?
The only way I can see it, is that it is wise to be wise (and to seek wisdom), and it's foolish to be foolish (unwise). Kinda by definition.
Depends on your values. I say it's wise to do what you want, and foolish to do what you hate.
Beyond that, it's a matter of values. What do you value, and why? If you value, say, being in good health more than you value understanding metaphysics, then maybe your time is better spent researching nuitrition and doing pushups.

Philosophy is not for everyone, and in fact it is for almost no one.
Not to disagree, but I think philosophy is for everyone. Just not in its current state. Everyone acts out of the same impulse as the philosopher.
There's also the issue of mental health. Constantly questioning your most basic understanding of reality puts a certain strain on your mind that's unhealthy. The human mind wants to have a certain understanding of the world that it can take for granted, as beyond doubt - that's part of the human need for religions. To keep pressing in that direction is unnatural. For most people, it's better to have some story, even if it involves Zeus or Jehovah or whatever, than to have no story and say "I don't know," or realize your understanding is partial.

But when you've gone this far - can you find a comfortable story, and stop there? Maybe one based in science, with a Big Bang and so on? Or will you just continue to question, always?
When you become wise (stupid) enough, there's no more questioning. You're just like, "Yes, I don't know." People are stupid because of their delusions, but when you have none, you also have no intelligence or anything by which you can be said to be wise.

You're just a human being. Living your life.
- Scott

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Ryan Rudolph
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Post by Ryan Rudolph » Thu Aug 31, 2006 5:17 am

My response to Kelly:
My response to Ryan:
My response to cosmic_prostitute:


Why do you separate Ryan from Cosmic Prostitute? They are one entity, A=A remember Kelly? CP=CP, We learned this stuff in grade school, come on…

My response to Jones:
Hi sap, you desperate failure for eternity. Do you have an obsession with promoting inferiority or what?
I’m just pointing out the futility of using your imaginative systems to help people, that’s all.

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Post by Tharan » Thu Aug 31, 2006 9:44 am

Scott wrote,
When you become wise (stupid) enough, there's no more questioning. You're just like, "Yes, I don't know." People are stupid because of their delusions, but when you have none, you also have no intelligence or anything by which you can be said to be wise.

You're just a human being. Living your life.
I think you are mistaking an enlightened understanding for nirvana. It is not necessarily that, though it might be if you made it so. It is simply as you described, in that there is no more questioning. For me, it made me understand that I did not need to "search" for anything any longer. I had always read that in Buddhist texts, but as with most teachings of this sort, it really doesn't mean anything until you experience it. It is then that words suddenly make sense.

But I am not sure how you follow that with the cold, dead impression that with "People are stupid because of their delusions, but when you have none, you also have no intelligence or anything by which you can be said to be wise."

You are implying here that understanding makes you emotionally dead inside? That is an extreme. Sure, you may know it is pointless and the more you revel in it (whatever "it" is), the more you are denying that truth, but this is not to say you cannot enjoy a joke, or good food or beer, or perhaps even a woman to some extent. Understanding can be accomplished without necessarily aligning the emotional state to the "cold, hard Truth."

Yes, it is delusional, but it is also spice. If you have not reached the emotional plateau that the revelation of pure existence is the highest form of excitement one could possibly experience, (though you may suspect it is more true than any temporal, fleeting feelings such as jokes, women, or beer) then I see no reason not to indulge moderately in such things all the while keeping what you suspect or know to be true at least in the back of your mind.

Personally, I continually mull over it. But I don't consider myself a "Buddha." My emotions (or maybe my strength to control them or even my desire to do so) are not aligned with what I know to be true. But my plateau came when I no longer stressed out about it. It is simply is the truth. It will always be there whether I come onboard or not.

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Post by Kelly Jones » Thu Aug 31, 2006 3:54 pm

cosmic_prostitute wrote:Why do you separate Ryan from Cosmic Prostitute?
I see two distinct personas. Ryan seems more natural and less anxious, cosmic_prostitute seems driven by a kind of revulsion of seriousness.

I have quite a few personas, and a lot more moods; some of them are dying off gradually. There's a demonic and manic fundamentalist, a hyperactive bon viveur, a terrified closet-trapped little kid, a smug know-it-all, a quietly flirtatious joker, a passive and obedient goody-two-shoes, a contemplative and reclusive monk, and so on. Yet I have one name.

I’m just pointing out the futility of using your imaginative systems to help people, that’s all.
Actually, it works quite well for "me". I've been constructing a serious persona to facilitate the less rational "people" of my own self.

.

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Post by Nick » Thu Aug 31, 2006 7:13 pm

Tharan wrote:Scott wrote,
When you become wise (stupid) enough, there's no more questioning. You're just like, "Yes, I don't know." People are stupid because of their delusions, but when you have none, you also have no intelligence or anything by which you can be said to be wise.

You're just a human being. Living your life.
I think you are mistaking an enlightened understanding for nirvana. It is not necessarily that, though it might be if you made it so. It is simply as you described, in that there is no more questioning. For me, it made me understand that I did not need to "search" for anything any longer. I had always read that in Buddhist texts, but as with most teachings of this sort, it really doesn't mean anything until you experience it. It is then that words suddenly make sense.

But I am not sure how you follow that with the cold, dead impression that with "People are stupid because of their delusions, but when you have none, you also have no intelligence or anything by which you can be said to be wise."

You are implying here that understanding makes you emotionally dead inside? That is an extreme. Sure, you may know it is pointless and the more you revel in it (whatever "it" is), the more you are denying that truth, but this is not to say you cannot enjoy a joke, or good food or beer, or perhaps even a woman to some extent. Understanding can be accomplished without necessarily aligning the emotional state to the "cold, hard Truth."

Yes, it is delusional, but it is also spice. If you have not reached the emotional plateau that the revelation of pure existence is the highest form of excitement one could possibly experience, (though you may suspect it is more true than any temporal, fleeting feelings such as jokes, women, or beer) then I see no reason not to indulge moderately in such things all the while keeping what you suspect or know to be true at least in the back of your mind.

Personally, I continually mull over it. But I don't consider myself a "Buddha." My emotions (or maybe my strength to control them or even my desire to do so) are not aligned with what I know to be true. But my plateau came when I no longer stressed out about it. It is simply is the truth. It will always be there whether I come onboard or not.
At some point Scott seemed to aquire the misconception that wisdom and philosophy leads to "ultimate ego gratifaction", rather the destruction of the ego. It's no wonder he is having this change of heart not so long after he felt he was being "attacked" as he put it, by other members of the forum. His fragile ego endured one too many bumps and bruises which has caused him to run back into the open arms of femininity.

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Post by Tharan » Thu Aug 31, 2006 7:44 pm

I don't think I would go that far. Scott is a young guy who has come a long way in a relatively short time. He doesn't seem as angry as he did just a year ago and this is just another in a long series of ego hurdles he will need to overcome. The ego can be a devilish bastard.

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Post by Ryan Rudolph » Thu Aug 31, 2006 10:04 pm

Kelly Jones wrote:
I see two distinct personas. Ryan seems more natural and less anxious, cosmic_prostitute seems driven by a kind of revulsion of seriousness.

I have quite a few personas, and a lot more moods; some of them are dying off gradually. There's a demonic and manic fundamentalist, a hyperactive bon viveur, a terrified closet-trapped little kid, a smug know-it-all, a quietly flirtatious joker, a passive and obedient goody-two-shoes, a contemplative and reclusive monk, and so on. Yet I have one name.
I can agree to that, however a revulsion to seriousness maybe going a little overboard. I'd like to think of it as childlike playing where I indulge in a little humor.

I havent had any serious lows as a result so my motto is: If your not suffering, dont fix it.
Last edited by Ryan Rudolph on Fri Sep 01, 2006 9:29 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by David Quinn » Thu Aug 31, 2006 10:25 pm

Tharan wrote:
I don't think I would go that far. Scott is a young guy who has come a long way in a relatively short time. He doesn't seem as angry as he did just a year ago and this is just another in a long series of ego hurdles he will need to overcome.
He is still very lost. His main problem is that he can't seem to reach a reach a conclusion about anything. He's always chopping and changing. He doesn't really know what to think.

-

millipodium

Post by millipodium » Thu Aug 31, 2006 10:54 pm

DavidQuinn000 wrote:Tharan wrote:
I don't think I would go that far. Scott is a young guy who has come a long way in a relatively short time. He doesn't seem as angry as he did just a year ago and this is just another in a long series of ego hurdles he will need to overcome.
He is still very lost. His main problem is that he can't seem to reach a reach a conclusion about anything. He's always chopping and changing. He doesn't really know what to think.

-
But quinn, reaching conclusions is close-minded. A state of perpetual self induced confusion is the goal for many fake geniuses of buddhist orientation.

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Post by sschaula » Fri Sep 01, 2006 5:40 am

David,

I know exactly what to think: don't listen to "wise people".
- Scott

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Life

Post by DHodges » Fri Sep 01, 2006 6:24 am

Lots for me to think about in Scott's post, but for now I'm only going to respond to some small bits of it.
sschaula wrote:When you let things fall away, you're being feminine. Your personality has turned into a barren landscape, or a gigantic vacuum. Masculinity is making something of yourself.
I see what you are saying.

But what is the motivation for "making something of yourself"? For most men, it probably has something to do (consciously or not) with attracting a mate. I think that's part of why, for instance, Dave Q. and Dan R. reject working. Most striving is just striving to be impressive to others - totally ego driven.

At this point, I'm more concerned with being who I am - acting authentically, being true to myself. For me - for now at least - that means staying the hell away from women. A woman will make something out of you... There was a deliberate choice to let that fall away.

Our lives are totally in our hands, and if we throw up our hands in the air, and say "Truth controls it all, I don't!" then we stop being in charge of who we are and we become whatever way the world wants us to become...which usually turns out to be a boring, pessimistic asshole.
Yes, we must be pro-active and actively determine who we are to become, or someone else will decide it for you. But I'm unconcerned with whether other people find it boring or pessimistic.

It is important to me to not bore myself, though. I really hate that.
Philosophy should be a means to an end, rather than the end itself. Because then the philosophy is taken in a masculine manner, rather than a feminine manner. It should enrich one's life, and not suck it dry.
What is the end you have in mind, that philosphy should be serving? Making life better? How do you make the judgement of what is enriching?

Isn't the question of what philosophy should serve, itself a philosophical question?

I agree that there is active philosophy and passive (academic) philosophy, and it's the active philosophy that we are concerned with here - although, yeah, there's a limit to how 'active' you can be while sitting and typing or reading.

I probably think best when I'm out walking around. Get teh blood flowing.
By the way, I've seen myself going in the same direction as you. I am asking myself if that's what I actually want to become.
That's certainly worth some serious thought.

Besides your own choices, there's also a certain inevitability to it. You get older. You change. You can't go back, even if you'd want to.

When I was, say, twenty, I never thought I'd live this long. I thought I'd be dead by now. That's how I thought, back then, and that's the level of intensity I was living at.

If I was to run into myself as I was back then (through some exceedingly bizarre and unlikely time-travel incident, let's say) the old me would probably be disgusted with me, call me a sell-out or something. I probably wouldn't have much to say to the old me, either. (At twenty, I was maybe kinda like Raskolnikov.)

When you are forty, you can't run your life based on the way you thought when you were twenty. It just wouldn't make any sense - you are not the same person. Besides being just older, one is (hopefully) a hell of a lot more mature, and living in a different world.

When you are twenty, you have no idea how much you don't know. At forty, maybe you have some perspective. At sixty, I expect things will again look quite a bit different, and it won't be the "me" who is alive today who will be living then. What will I become? I guess I'll find out...

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Post by David Quinn » Fri Sep 01, 2006 8:28 am

millipodium wrote:
But quinn, reaching conclusions is close-minded.

And rejecting conclusions for the sake of preserving one's attachment to "open-mindedness" isn't?

Being open-minded is all very well, so long as it eventually leads to one's mind opening up to truth. If it doesn't, then there is a problem. There is a point in which open-mindedness, if pushed too far, becomes a form of close-mindedness itself.

Many people's minds are so open these days that whatever passes in, even if it be the greatest knowledge in the world, immediately passes out again. And they don't even realize it.

A state of perpetual self induced confusion is the goal for many fake geniuses of buddhist orientation.
For fake geniuses, I'm sure that's true. I dare say that the majority of people on this forum have self-induced confusion as their primary goal.

-

millipodium

Post by millipodium » Fri Sep 01, 2006 8:30 am

DavidQuinn000 wrote:millipodium wrote:
But quinn, reaching conclusions is close-minded.

And rejecting conclusions for the sake of preserving one's attachment to "open-mindedness" isn't?

Being open-minded is all very well, so long as it eventually leads to one's mind opening up to truth. If it doesn't, then there is a problem. There is a point in which open-mindedness, if pushed too far, becomes a form of close-mindedness itself.

Many people's minds are so open these days that whatever passes in, even if it be the greatest knowledge in the world, immediately passes out again. And they don't even realize it.

A state of perpetual self induced confusion is the goal for many fake geniuses of buddhist orientation.
For fake geniuses, I'm sure that's true. I dare say that the majority of people on this forum have self-induced confusion as their primary goal.

-
That first part was sarcastic. I sometimes forgot sarcasm doesn't play well in print.

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Post by David Quinn » Fri Sep 01, 2006 9:26 am

Oh, that's right, I forgot you value truth. It's sometimes hard to tell with you.

What is truth, according to you?

-

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Post by sschaula » Fri Sep 01, 2006 11:57 am

Dave,

I wrote:
When you let things fall away, you're being feminine. Your personality has turned into a barren landscape, or a gigantic vacuum. Masculinity is making something of yourself.
You responded:
I see what you are saying.

But what is the motivation for "making something of yourself"?
I meant being active instead of reactive. Not necessarily becoming a standard successful person, but doing what you like, and not just accepting whatever comes...unless you are actively accepting whatever comes.
For most men, it probably has something to do (consciously or not) with attracting a mate. I think that's part of why, for instance, Dave Q. and Dan R. reject working. Most striving is just striving to be impressive to others - totally ego driven.
Working sucks. It's easy to be lazy and ride out our samskaras. I'm constantly dealing with the pressures of what society wants me to do versus what I want to do. I am absolutely sure you've dealt with the same things, having lived much longer than me. Hating your school work. Hating your jobs. Hating your career.

I mean you gave up Woman...which is always saying what she wants of you.

Is it masculine to blame, though? Blaming women for your bad feelings about them wanting to change you. Blaming jobs for your bad feelings about what you hate doing. I think blaming is pretty feminine...pretty delusional...egocentric...ignorant.

The reason why we hate certain things is because of our own delusions. It's all in the mind. If you choose to enjoy something, you will.

David and Dan may have quit working for good reasons. I'm not saying they did it out of femininity, or that they were in a blaming mindset when they chose to not work. I'm saying that it's a possibility. Any choice we make holds this possibility.

True wisdom makes you serene. A false attempt at it makes you coarse. People need to be very honest with themselves, so that they don't have false attempts...because the subconscious generally acts in opposition to the conscious mind. A good example of this just happened in another thread. David was talking to "sky" and it seemed he was kind of flirting. I'm sure he was barely aware of it, but if he is more honest with himself he'll see what was happening.

So someone with true wisdom wouldn't feel the need to quit working, or divorce their wives. Those are pretty coarse actions, based out of a kind of rejection. Aversion from something.

True wisdom accepts everything....does that mean that it's feminine? No...it's just perfect masculinity.

Imagine water coming out of a sink. It moves in a straight line. Now imagine something obstructs its path...it will start to splatter and go in different directions. The obstruction is a samskara. The water is masculinity. When all samskaras are gone, there is true wisdom. True honesty.

There is not a man out there that isn't masculine. I don't know about females, because I'm not one. But, I believe no man has femininity. There are seeming traits of that in a man's actions. Like the splattering of water hitting an obstruction, going in all different directions.

So, us men should have no fear of being feminine. We are created masculine, and if we are honest with ourselves, that shines forth more intensely.
At this point, I'm more concerned with being who I am - acting authentically, being true to myself. For me - for now at least - that means staying the hell away from women. A woman will make something out of you... There was a deliberate choice to let that fall away.
That kind of makes it sound like you have been a victim. The Genius Forum may be kind of like a support group of victimized males.

Is this very masculine? Do you feel powerful, focused, able, active...when you view this about yourself? Or does it seem more vulnerable, accepting, weak, etc?

I'm not suggesting you get back in relationships with women. It's good to do what seems right.

It's good to be yourself and act authentically. I notice that about you, Dave, that you're very genuine. It's one of the best characteristics a person can have, at least in my opinion.
Yes, we must be pro-active and actively determine who we are to become, or someone else will decide it for you. But I'm unconcerned with whether other people find it boring or pessimistic.

It is important to me to not bore myself, though. I really hate that.
Same here. But at least for myself, I'd be pretty bored if I was the grumpy old man who spent all his days alone.

I'm sure some wise ass will read this and want to type out something about me being attached to relationships with people, or something. That it's not wise. I'll admit, it's based out of an emotion...but at least it's honest and not a denial of who I am. In that, it's closer to wisdom than something contrived.
What is the end you have in mind, that philosphy should be serving? Making life better? How do you make the judgement of what is enriching?

Isn't the question of what philosophy should serve, itself a philosophical question?
All of this talk I've been doing about the stupidity of philosophy has been philosophy. I thought someone would notice. It's kind of funny.

Good philosophy (the kind that encompasses your entire life...not academic) doesn't destroy your life. It doesn't make you lonely, grouchy, etc. It brings some substance to your life, and doesn't detract from who you are. So that's the end that philosophy should be serving. I wasn't rejecting thinking altogether, just the thinking prescribed at this forum. I think it's too dishonest.
I agree that there is active philosophy and passive (academic) philosophy, and it's the active philosophy that we are concerned with here - although, yeah, there's a limit to how 'active' you can be while sitting and typing or reading.

I probably think best when I'm out walking around. Get teh blood flowing.
Haha. There's truth in that.
Besides your own choices, there's also a certain inevitability to it. You get older. You change. You can't go back, even if you'd want to.
You can always be anyone you want to be. If you want to be a nice guy when you're 90, after having lived a long life of being a jerk, you can pull it off. It just takes some masculinity.
- Scott

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Trevor Salyzyn
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Post by Trevor Salyzyn » Wed Sep 06, 2006 3:41 am

my mug is ugg

no way am i posting it on the internet

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Tomas
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Post by Tomas » Wed Sep 06, 2006 10:08 am

Graven images and/or fluff bios serve no useful purpose(s) for either Genius or Worldly...

Buddha was/is depicted as overweight.

Jesus was/is depicted with long hair/beard with a light/aura (lumen) in the background.

This is an interesting thread...keep'em coming.

Tomas (the tank)
VietNam veteran - 1971

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Trevor Salyzyn
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Post by Trevor Salyzyn » Wed Sep 06, 2006 11:11 am

Buddha was/is depicted as overweight.

Jesus was/is depicted with long hair/beard with a light/aura (lumen) in the background.
I'd like to be depicted wearing my favourite shirt (Max from "Where the Wild Things Are" jumping off his bed with a naughty look in his eyes), 40 pounds lighter (back to the weight I was before I was put on this cocktail of medications), and maybe -- since we can do anything in imagination-land -- a chin-job. Instead of turkey-neck, I could totally go all the way in the other direction and get me a fancy projecting butt-chin.

Other than that, maybe a five o'clock shadow, some "Gordon Freeman" style glasses (I look smart in glasses, but I'm cursed with 20/20 vision), and maybe I could let my hair grow in just enough to have a "perpetually overworked busybody" cowlick.

Now, for the background, I'd like to be in a trendy tea shop. One of those faux-upscale places with yin-yangs and paintings on the walls and at least one pseudointellectual Marxist per table. That, my erstwhile compatriot, is how I'd like to be depicted to posterity.

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Post by sue hindmarsh » Wed Sep 06, 2006 12:00 pm

Dave Hodges - do want heroin with that?

Scott has served you up enough emotional nonsense that when next you're visited by the Jehovah Witnesses you'll mistake them as geniuses.

-

I know Scott is young, and I appreciate the fact that he is confused by life - but there is no excuse for anyone possessing a brain to think that becoming Wise is equivalent to joining the Boy Scouts. You only have to look at any sage: such as Hakuin, Socrates or Kierkegaard, to understand this point.

Wisdom isn’t about doing ‘good’ or the ‘right thing’ – it is about rigorously ripping the universe apart, then shaking it upside down until you have extracted every last bit of knowledge from it. Then, and only then, can you begin the job of philosophy.

-
Sue

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