Where is the "Hezbollah & Israel" thread...

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MKFaizi

Post by MKFaizi » Sat Jul 29, 2006 12:38 pm

You officially win for best quote of the evening! This former New Yorker is laughing quite loudly. I've not been to Pakistan, but if that is anything like India that's even funnier. :)
Praise Allah. Someone with a sense of the absurd; ironic.

Pakistan is exactly like India -- except for fewer Hindus and others. But people still poop in the streets and there is plenty of filth. There are buffalo and goats and whatnot on the streets. There are no traffic laws. Bribery is the best way to get anything accomplished. Americanized Paks get sick when they go back home. Despite Islam, there is still a tribal/caste system.

And it is a Bollywood thing.

Faizi

PS -- I do love New York City. Friendliest people in the world. All nuts but that's cool -- kind of. A New Yorker can steal my luggage anytime. In fact, if I ever get there again, I am just going to put my bags out on Times Square so they can have at it. A kind of care package. I will fill it with gauzy underwear and silky dresses and expensive hosiery. New Yorkers love that stuff. I will enclose a card -- Love, Faizi.

I reckon they will think it is a suicide bomber kit. Woo hoo.

Like a bomb would put off a New Yorker in search of expensive, gauzy underwear.

I figure by now the Puerto Ricans must have bomb sniffing dogs and electronic devices that defuse bombs in suitcases. I have great respect for Puerto Ricans. Most noble and intelligent people in the world.

It is a great pity that more Puerto Rican Americans don't run for public office in the US. Think a Puerto Rican el presidente would allow Ossama to live in wild Pakistan?

I don't think so. Dude would have been dead long ago. Bush, being a patrician white, whimped out and went to Iraq. He figured no one would know the difference and for a long time he was right. No one did.

Now, the vast majority of Americans figure all Muslims are evil. A Muslim American could wrap himself in the American flag and roll down Wall Street and he would still be considered evil.

Whole thing makes me sick.

Faizi

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Post by Rory » Sun Jul 30, 2006 7:34 pm

MKFaizi wrote:
My objection to the chador and the burqa is that, often, a woman does not have a choice. Granted, many women given a choice would still go out in a burqa. Can be very ingrained -- they would feel that they were naked unless they were wearing this tent thing with eye holes.
I have a friend who wanted to wear one in the US and was treated so poorly because of it that she moved herself and her entire family to Saudi Arabia. Now her daughter complains of the conditions there. I suppose she is still a US citizen so if she ever wants to leave home she probably can.

I considered getting and wearing one when I was in India just to hide the fact that I was white. Then I realized that the fact that I only comprehend English would probably give me away anyway.
Toward that end, a bikini can be as offensive as a chador. I certainly do not object to any woman wearing a bikini -- young women love the chance to show off their figures. But when you really look at what they are doing, they are enslaving themselves.
I have frequently tried to make this point at another board but I only get accused of hating beautiful women. When in reality it is quite the opposite. I love them, but I wish they would show more respect for themselves.
Friendliest people in the world
New Yorkers don't strike me as being very friendly. The south is much more friendly. Although the friendliest place in the world was Vietnam. But NYC just scared me most of the time. There were very few places I was willing to walk without my roommate or my roommates brother.
I reckon they will think it is a suicide bomber kit. Woo hoo.
OMG Story!

My parents grew up with the Son of Sam stuff... and my father had gone to get some papers signed in NYC - stuff like my mother's name change form when they got married. Anyway, he put the briefcase on top of the car to get some stuff out of it in New Jersey, and then go ton the path train. he gets to NY and realizes that he doesn't have his briefcase. So he goes back to NJ to get it and the FBI is there waiting for him. Turns out they thought that he was going to bomb the place and had shot his briefcase to make sure there were no explosives in it. In addition they had interviewed all his neighbors so everyone in his neighborhood thought he was Son of Sam. OOPS! He gets home and mom starts yelling at him about being late then sees the case. hehehe.

MKFaizi

Sorrow

Post by MKFaizi » Mon Jul 31, 2006 2:01 pm

I listened to a spokeswoman for Israel express deep sorrow over the killing of sixty civilians in Beirut today.

I mean, it was heart-rending. I feel so sorry for the poor Israelis. Lobbing those precision laser crap bombs at designated targets and fucking up -- killing sixty civilians, about 19 who were young children.

I feel so sorry for Israel.

AWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWW. Poor Israel. It did not mean to drop the bomb. It was an accident. And they are so sorry. AWWWWWWWWWWWWWW -- poor Israel.

Looks to me like Israel is playing the old Arab/Arab number -- trust me, trust my enemy. We will both stab you in the back.

I hate to say it because I have nothing against Jews -- I do not care about Israel -- but Israel is pulling a fast one. My guess is that it is going to cost the US big time.

I no longer think Al Qaeda is that much of a threat. But, unless things are resolved, I do think the US is going to take a hit from someone.

For some reason, the US perceives Israel as this pure, innocent maiden defending itself against the godawful infidels.

I do not want to see Jews murdered more than I want to see the Lebanese murdered. But I am sick and tired of the mutual Israeli/US blow job.

Goddamn sickening.

Faizi

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Post by sschaula » Mon Jul 31, 2006 2:54 pm

Marsha,
I mean, it was heart-rending. I feel so sorry for the poor Israelis. Lobbing those precision laser crap bombs at designated targets and fucking up -- killing sixty civilians, about 19 who were young children.
What would you do if your house was being shot at and your enemy, who didn't have a house of their own, hid in your neighbors house?

This is exactly what's happening over there. Hezbollah hides in populated areas, blending in with innocent people who have nothing to do with the fight. How should Israel defend itself against that?

How would you defend your house against your enemy? Send in spies to figure out where the enemy is in the building? But there are multiple enemies, and multiple rooms!

Similarily, there are a shit ton of Hezbollah fighters and a shit ton of locations...and like I said, they blend in.

You'd need more than a shit ton of spies to succeed in exterminating your enemy..so that's out of the question. Do you sit back and wait for your house and your family to be destroyed? That doesn't seem to make any sense. It's obvious everyone in the neighborhood wants to take your house from you. They all claim it's not yours...but what the fuck...you bought it didn't you? All of their families got their houses in the same manner you did...so why the bitching?

Should Israel allow their soldiers to be kidnapped, and should they allow attacks? I don't think so. Doing so would ruin their country. Pacifism dies along with the pacifist. Plato said, "Only the dead have seen the end of war", but I say only the pacifist will see the end of war, because no matter how good of a person you think you are, there's always someone out there ready to kill you. No matter how nonviolent you are, there will be someone willing to do violence to you.

The man who said "If you live by the sword, you die by the sword" died by the sword. Funny, because he didn't live by it! Gandhi, one of the biggest promoters of peace, was shot.

Israel is smart enough to not listen to Americans who whine about the fighting. If you stop defending yourself, you die. It's a cold hard fact in these times.

How do you defend yourself against a hidden enemy? Ah, the question of the new millenium.

So what are we to do? Start throwing homemade bombs at your neighbors house? I personally disagree with that, because they have a bunch of kids living there and a bunch of innocent people who have nothing to do with this enemy. Should you nuke it? Of course not, because your own family will be left with mutations, and of course, it will destroy every good neighbor you had. Marsha, what do you think you would do in this situation?

Of course Israel was wrong...but what should it do?
For some reason, the US perceives Israel as this pure, innocent maiden defending itself against the godawful infidels.
Well, what's the truth? Is it actually as corrupt as Hezbollah?

I haven't been watching the news lately...why did Hezbollah kidnap the Israelite soldiers anyway? Why didn't they return them when asked?

Also, what is the main goal that Hezbollah is trying to accomplish? Are they trying to change the government of Lebanon? Are they trying to take Israel back from the Jews?
- Scott

MKFaizi

Post by MKFaizi » Mon Jul 31, 2006 3:07 pm

I haven't been watching the news lately...why did Hezbollah kidnap the Israelite soldiers anyway? Why didn't they return them when asked?
I have to sleep so cannot give you a full reply.

Why did they kidnap them? Because they could.

This is nothing new. American solidiers and others have been kidnapped for years now and killed. On the internet.

I do not condone the act of kidnapping but I do think Israel has gone over the top in their reaction.

The virginal/pure maiden apology for bombing an apartment house filled with women and children was sickening. No excuse for that.

Faizi

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Dan Rowden
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Post by Dan Rowden » Mon Jul 31, 2006 11:45 pm

Is there anyone in this thread who has the foggiest knoweldge of the issue and history of the region?

If you actually care about this issue: http://www.btselem.org/index.asp

This is an Israeli site.

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Leyla Shen
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Post by Leyla Shen » Tue Aug 01, 2006 12:52 am

Yes. I am aware of that site.

But, most don't care. They see no reason to. Israel is defending herself. End of story, apparently.

.

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sschaula
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Post by sschaula » Tue Aug 01, 2006 1:13 am

I watch the news and they give their view of what's happening. I come here and read people giving their view...but there's no one that gives me the truth.

What is there to care about when I don't know what's actually happening? When I ask questions here, no one gives answers. Does anyone here actually know anything about the issue and history of the region?

What is the issue? What is the history of the region?

Dan, that website doesn't give this information.
- Scott

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Diebert van Rhijn
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Post by Diebert van Rhijn » Tue Aug 01, 2006 6:59 am

sschaula wrote:Hezbollah hides in populated areas, blending in with innocent people who have nothing to do with the fight. How should Israel defend itself against that?
No, Hezbollah represents most of these populated areas already since they kicked out (worn down) the Israelis in the 80's. You cannot say they hide when they have offices, tv stations, take part in the government and so on. The military branch of Hezbollah hides from the Mossad and the IDF's long arm who never stopped trying to disperse them, even inside Lebanon.
Should Israel allow their soldiers to be kidnapped, and should they allow attacks? I don't think so. Doing so would ruin their country.
Of course, Israel can perhaps only survive after having wiped out half of the Middle East or put every Philistine behind barbed wire. But what does that say about Israel?
The man who said "If you live by the sword, you die by the sword" died by the sword. Funny, because he didn't live by it! Gandhi, one of the biggest promoters of peace, was shot.
The pen is mightier than the sword, said someone else. So these days people get shot for what they say and/or represent.
Israel is smart enough to not listen to Americans who whine about the fighting. If you stop defending yourself, you die. It's a cold hard fact in these times.
Yes but consider also that attack is considered the best defence and like in business: the one who doesn't expand will start shrinking. Please do not even try to put Israel in a victim role.
How do you defend yourself against a hidden enemy? Ah, the question of the new millenium.
This enemy will only grow with the amount of violence that is unleashed on them. It feeds of it. There you have the answer of the new millenium....
Also, what is the main goal that Hezbollah is trying to accomplish? Are they trying to change the government of Lebanon? Are they trying to take Israel back from the Jews?
Like many likewise organizations they arise when there's a need for law, order, protection and care. They grew in the void that Libanon became in their civil war.

Today I was reading UN observational reports from last years and it gives an idea why Hezbollah thinks they cannot just tune down their operations:
For the period from Jan. 21, 2005, to July 20, 2005:

"Violations of the Blue Line continued throughout the past six months, most often in the form of recurring air violations by Israeli jets, helicopters and drones as well as ground violations, from the Lebanese side, primarily by Lebanese shepherds. […] The Israeli Air Force continued their air incursion […] deep into Lebanon […] sonic booms […] whenever Israel deemed […]"
These reports from a relative neutral viewpoint (as I suppose the UN is regarded) read similar for a couple of years. If Israel would leave Lebanon alone for just a little, the situation would change quite fast, IMO. But they appear to have other plans and great media skills to boot.

Israel wants to survive and what they're doing now might be the only way to create some future breathroom, but it will only determine others to terrorize them, sooner or later, big time. So Israel should not want to survive but change policies to integrate into the region. But while the poison of Judaism and extreme nationalism is still married to politics, it ain't gonna happen.

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Post by sschaula » Tue Aug 01, 2006 8:27 am

That makes sense, Diebert. Thanks.
- Scott

MKFaizi

Post by MKFaizi » Tue Aug 01, 2006 10:25 am

Dan,

Interesting web site. I have never seen it but, then, I did not have to see it. I am a writer to this thread and I have long been aware of these things.

That said, I also must say that I do not hate Israel. I certainly do not hate Jews.

But it does kind of get me how the Israelis are often portrayed as a very civilized people -- "like us" -- while Palestineans are always depicted, like all Muslims, as crazed terrorists.

I also realize there is some truth to the allegation that Hezbollah stations itself in populated areas. But I am sick and tired of seeing that used as an excuse. I do often think it is merely an excuse.

Had the killing in Qana occured in Israel -- well, I can just hear it -- "terrorist act by Islamic fanatics." When the Israelis kill civilian women and children, it is called a mistake; unfortunate collateral damage.

God help me, had one of my children been among such collateral damage. Even had I been there in Qana and witnessed the carnage and my children were not among the wounded or dead. It is just kind of an unforgivable act -- like the attack on the World Trade Towers is an unforgivable act. As horrific as the WTC attack, it was an attack on a business center, not on dwellings.

Essentially, it is hard for me to understand why an act of terror on the part of one is called terror and an act of terror by another is called a tragic mistake or a justified act.

I watched an interview from Britain with the spokeswoman from Israel concerning Qana. The female correspondent from Britain did not let that woman off the hook. You do not see that much in the US. Here, whatever Israel says, pretty much goes.

In coverage of the conflict however, CNN is not pro-Israeli. It is showing the carnage in Lebanon. The very right wing radio press calls the TV coverage a liberal bias because it is supposedly anti-Israeli.

This just kind of seems baffling. The same right wing zealots who once condemned and squawked about Jewish dominance of this or that thing, is now completely pro Jew.

YET -- BIG YET -- they defend Mel Gibson for his anti-Jew remarks.

Whatever.

Faizi

MKFaizi

Post by MKFaizi » Tue Aug 01, 2006 10:41 am

Gandhi, one of the biggest promoters of peace, was shot.
Gandhi was a very clever man. Incredible politician. But make no mistake -- he lived by the sword and he died by the sword -- metaphorically -- actually, a gun.

If you have read no history of the separation of India from the British Empire and the greatest migration of human beings in the twentieth century, you might find such reading fascinating. If it is still in print, "Freedom at Midnight" is a very easily read history.

Gandhi was not some holy man running about in a diaper, eating dal. He was a very wily, well educated, politically astute and politically talented man running about in a diaper, eating dal.

Great costume.

He understood well that violence would be provoked by his acts of passive disobedience and "non-violence."

Faizi

MKFaizi

Post by MKFaizi » Tue Aug 01, 2006 11:18 am

SS wrote:
What is the issue? What is the history of the region?
You are talking about a very long history and, really, you are going to have to read it yourself. I don't think there is a way to give it to you in a condensed version.

In the late forties, European Jews and American Jews went to the middle eastern region that was once Israel back in the day -- like a couple thousand years ago. They decided that they should take the region that was once Israel back to establish Israel as the Jewish homeland. The establishment of Israel was heavily backed by the US -- lots of money. There were Jews living in the region before the more modern Jews from the US and Europe went there to take over things. They lived pretty peacefully among the Palestinians there.

I have never read the novel, Exodus, because I do not enjoy many novels. But I did read an excerpt once that described the vision of these technologically advanced men in the midst of a third world type region. Kind of like Stranger in A Strange Land. The native people realized there was nothing that could be done to stop them. They were too advanced and they took over.

Basically, Israel is a country of transplants. Israelis are well educated and they enjoy a high income level. They are technologically advanced and they are heavily backed with US money -- always have been -- from 1948 on.

They are resented in the middle east because they are perceived as a western -- mainly American -- transplant that does not belong in the region. Palestinians consider the land to belong to them and they resent being treated like second class citizens in what they consider to be THEIR country.

This is a very rough and basic history and there are many variables to it. For instance, there are Palestinians who live in what is called Israel who do well.

Some Jews will argue -- and I can understand the argument -- that after the Jewish Holocaust under Hitler, there was need for a Jewish state, so that Jews would never have to be subject to persecution again.

I just wonder about the location. I realize that the region contains places that are considered vital to Judaism. There are also places considered to be holy by Christians and Muslims.

I can understand why Israel is so aggressive in defending itself. It is surrounded by hostility and resentment. But, given its location, that is to be expected -- also, given the fact that Palestinians resent being usurped.

Very rough modern history, SS. If you want to know more, you are going to have to find it. I wonder if there is such a book as "The Middle East for Dummies," just something that could give a quick but factual summary.

Faizi

MKFaizi

Post by MKFaizi » Tue Aug 01, 2006 11:21 am

Praise Allah. I found it.

Middle East for Dummies

Faizi

MKFaizi

Post by MKFaizi » Tue Aug 01, 2006 12:13 pm

SS,

Did you not read this section from the web site Dan posted? This is information of the kind you seek.


Israel has built gates along the completed sections of the Barrier , through which permit holders are allowed to pass. However, requests of many Palestinians for permits to enter their land are rejected, either on grounds of security, or on the contention that the applicant has not provided sufficient proof of ownership of the land or family relation to the landowner. Also, a permit from the Civil Administration does not guarantee that the holder will be allowed to pass through the gate: when the army declares comprehensive closures on the Occupied Territories , the permits do not apply. Furthermore, many residents have to travel long distances, usually along unpaved roads, to get to their gate. The difficulty and expense in gaining access to their land have turned farming into an unfeasible venture, and many residents do not exercise their right to go to their land and work their primary source of livelihood.

Faizi

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Post by sschaula » Tue Aug 01, 2006 1:48 pm

I'm very glad to have learned all that I have from this thread. Thanks for having the patience to share the info with me.
- Scott

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Dan Rowden
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Post by Dan Rowden » Tue Aug 01, 2006 6:07 pm

You get a reasonably good synopsis of the history of the conflict here (admittedly sympathetic to the Palestinians):

If Americas Knew

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Diebert van Rhijn
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Post by Diebert van Rhijn » Tue Aug 01, 2006 11:59 pm

From Dan's link:
By the end of the 1948 war the Jewish state — having now declared itself "Israel" — had conquered 78 percent of Palestine — far more than that proposed even by the very generous UN partition plan. And three-quarters of a million Palestinians had been made refugees. Over 400 towns and villages had been destroyed, and a new map was being drawn up...
The refugee problem in 1948 (and later wars) have different versions, as one could expect. From various sources and viewpoints one can distill a complex picture of many refugees leaving out of fear for a warzone but some of them following the call of a leader of that time (preparing for a war zone?) and some of them driven out by actions of Israeli militia.

Most Palestinians claim to be driven out or intimidated, while many Israelis claim most Palestinians just packed up and went away, never to return.

It's one of the most disputed historical issues regarding the Palestinians, because now the Palestinians claim not only their old land and houses back, but also compensation for damages to their property. Israel doesn't feel responsible for the flight ('spontanious migration') of the Palestine population and still refuses. Of course the huge inflow of Arabs into Israel territory would cause major political problems, as the original group of refugees has grown quite a bit in size.

But I have a hard time believing people leaving their home and land if not under extreme pressure. That most Israeli keep belittling and denying this pressuring is one of the things that in my opinion prevent this conflict to end.

Edit: my post was out of the top of my head. More in-depth material can be found, for example here: Critical Analysis Of The Birth Of The Palestinian Refugee Problem By Benny Morris. Morris being an influencal but also disputed Israeli historian (check also Wikipedia).

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Post by Nick » Wed Aug 02, 2006 3:51 am

A quality link on the history of Israel and the middle east can be found in Chapter Four of this compliation called "Shattering the Sacred Myths". The entire thing is a good read, I'd recommend it to anyone looking to gain more insight on the history and development of our planet.

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Dan Rowden
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Post by Dan Rowden » Wed Aug 02, 2006 10:52 am

I'm not sure that that material is overly helpful in understanding the recent history of the region, interesting as it may be of itself. The Wikipedia entry for Israel is also an interesting read:

Israel

MKFaizi

Post by MKFaizi » Wed Aug 02, 2006 12:41 pm

Dan,
You get a reasonably good synopsis of the history of the conflict here (admittedly sympathetic to the Palestinians):
Good summarizing web site. I don't think it is overly sympathetic to Palestineans. Pretty factual.

Good "Mideast for Dummies" site.

Faizi

MKFaizi

Post by MKFaizi » Wed Aug 02, 2006 1:09 pm

Dan,
The Wikipedia entry for Israel is also an interesting read:
Looks more closely at the big fat mess of it -- involvement of governents outside of the region -- Syria, Egypt, Britain, US -- et al.

The current conflict is more of the same old shit. You hit me. I will hit you. This is my land. This is my land. We will not be persecuted. We will not be persecuted.

Could be interesting to just cut all the crap and inteference and let the Israelis and Palestinians duke it out on a primitive level -- no bombs. Mano e mano.

Why not settle it with a boxing match? In that case, my money is on the Arab. Loser goes to Dollywood. Maybe, Utah.

The US has enough land to spare for both an Israeli homeland and a Palestinean homeland. Put the specific homelands side by side and sell tickets. The US could subsidize equal parts Palestinean and Israeli casinos. That is what we do for Native Americans.

Everybody loves to gamble.

I think the promise of casinos is a great peace initiative.

I will stop now to write to John Kerry. The more I think about it the more convinced I am that gambling is the answer to peace in the middle east. Given enough casinos, I reckon the territories will not even have to move to Dollywood or Nebraska or Utah -- or for that matter, Virginia. Here in southwestern Virginia, we could use some Jewish/Palestinean attractions -- belly dancing anyone?

This is Falwell country and I think the time is right to break that motherfucker up. Southwestern Virginia needs Jews and Arabs. Too many white people here -- know what I mean? Like, enough of the Scotch-Irish-Mexicans already.

Hell, I will volunteer. I got enough space in my backyard for Israel. My dogs would love a wailing wall or two.

Faizi

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Dan Rowden
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Post by Dan Rowden » Wed Aug 02, 2006 1:22 pm

Interesting Article:

The Moral Culpability for Qana

MKFaizi

Post by MKFaizi » Wed Aug 02, 2006 2:57 pm

Dan wrote:
Interesting Article:
Dude,

I can't even go there. Too sickening.

Kind of looks like truth but damn.

I mean, makes me want to leave the planet.

Actually, I have no problem with that. EXCEPT..

Pound it home, already. I just can't come to resolution to suicide. I would if I could. I am weak. If I was not weak, I would cut my throat.

Faizi

MKFaizi

Post by MKFaizi » Wed Aug 02, 2006 3:04 pm

I am deeply sickened.

Faizi

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