frank,
DQ: Calling enlightenment a booby prize and listing the outer poverty aspects of the enlightened life is to omit the very meat of enlightenment itself. It is a shallow characterization to make.
f: OK you've got some kind of dualistic thinking happening where an 'outer life' of poverty somehow kind of represents a 'proof' of 'inner' enlightenment.
You have still got it backwards. The "proof" of enlightenment comes from the conscious understanding and experience of Reality enjoyed by the enlightened person. It is an inner proof. The other stuff, the outer poverty of his life, is merely the consequence of this accomplishment.
Do you think it's possible for a Human to work, marry, raise kids etc and achieve enlightenment, be enlightened?
It depends on what you mean by "enlightenment". I think it is possible to acheive a good intellectual understanding of Reality, as well as experience some authentic satoris (direct experiences of Reality), while working and being married, etc. That's the easy part. The problems really only begin when you try to implement this understanding into your daily life. As soon as you try to do this, you immediately begin to clash with your other attachments, and with the world generally. So you won't be able to properly grow and flourish into enlightened consciousness and enjoy its countless benefits. The shackles of your marriage, job, etc, will prevent it.
The best you can probably do in this situation is to isolate the understanding to a particular compartment of the mind and seal it off from the rest of your life. You can then revist this understanding on a part-time basis and enjoy it in a limited sense. It means engendering a split-personality type of situation, but I suppose it's better than nothing.
Enlightenment is Enlightenment
Poverty is Poverty
They are not Identical.
In your last post you were boasting about how "empty" you are becoming. Now you are suddenly objecting to the idea of poverty in the spiritual life!
How does a person become "empty" and not become poor (in attachments) at the same time? Or are you talking about a kind of pseudo-emptiness, like an ascetic monk who lives in a palace?
For the Life of Me, the Romanticising of Poverty/Welfare dependancy, as a case, has been pressed on me before and I can never get it.
That may be because it isn't meant to be a romantic notion. Rather, it is a bitter consequence of being born in a society that is dominated by unconsciousness and lies.
I can gather that directly confronting falseness in the world is not really your cup of tea. It would demand that you become more of a participant, and less of an observer. Better to step back invisibly into the corner and laugh at everything as though it were a comedy. It's safer.
DQ: I have to have an appearance of some kind, so I can't escape these issues entirely.
f: Yes, it is absurd.
DQ: I don't find it so. I think you're creating your own amusement here. It has little to do with me.
f: On the subject of your Beard....due to dependant origination it exists as an effect of prior causes...some of these prior causes include 'certain Ideas' you have about what to not-have a Beard means...
Your Beard's existance depends on what it means for you to not-have a Beard...or the meaning you have concerning 'the Beardless'...ie, something about Womanly Traits...
This quite clearly is Vanity as the removal of your Beard would be tantamount to a 'loss' of something...or rather the 'gaining' of something which in your case would be Womanly Traits...which again would be repulsive to you...
The Beard means something to you...
It is effectively a part of your Costume because without it you wouldn't be you or the appearance you wish to make because you have to have an appearance of some kind...
Your Vanity is more in what 'Not-Having' a Beard means.
Yes, it is absurd because you've locked yourself into a preference that defines who you are not...the Beard is some kind of Head Trip about an Identity you wish to avoid...it's an Identity Crisis...
I sometimes shave off my beard (every couple of years or so) and keep my face clean-shaven for a month or so, in order to give my face an airing. I don't experience any loss of identity in doing so. As far as I know, Kevin Solway has been beardless for the past few years. Dan Rowden often doesn't have a beard. There is no costume. It's all in your imagination.
Again, the great advantage of not shaving is not having to spend time on one's appearance. That is what I value. I couldn't give a toss about the beard itself. It is the act of focusing on one's appearances which I object to. Life is too short to waste on pointless exercises.
f: The 'emptier' I get the more delighted I become.
DQ: Well, I reckon you're full of it.
f: Well, you would think unkindly of me wouldn't you?...
God forbid, no. Frowning on empty boasts is most unsagely.
f: Now, this Act of Genius.
It's an Act of Thinking isn't it?
It's an Act of Thinking that 'pierces the veil' isn't it?
Pierces the Veil of Illusion?
If that's so, what is it that is Found beyond the Veil?
DQ: Nature as it really is.
f: Can you describe Nature as it really is?
I can give a few pointers. For example, Nature can be described as formless. Although it is utterly everything, it doesn't have any particular form itself. Enlightenent occurs when one no longer projects onto Nature what isn't really there - such as a particular fixed form.
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