the phenomeon of music

Post questions or suggestions here.
User avatar
Cory Duchesne
Posts: 2320
Joined: Thu Feb 02, 2006 10:35 am
Location: Canada
Contact:

the phenomeon of music

Post by Cory Duchesne » Tue Feb 28, 2006 4:00 am

I would like to hear your thoughts on the phenomenon of music.

Is it merely an elaborate mating call?

Or as another philosopher put it: cultural cheesecake?

Is some music conductive to pointing the mind towards enlightenment. I realize sentimental pop songs are obviously a hindrance. however is all music a hindrance?

Is music a more feminine based phenomenon, and for that reason, a hindrance to enlightenment?

Music seems to be feminine because it is so enchanting, charming and aesthetic

Is music ultimately useless?

User avatar
sschaula
Posts: 1317
Joined: Fri Nov 18, 2005 3:16 am
Location: USA
Contact:

Post by sschaula » Tue Feb 28, 2006 10:20 am

Is music a more feminine based phenomenon, and for that reason, a hindrance to enlightenment?

Feminine things aren't hindrances to enlightenment, stupidity is.

Music seems to be feminine because it is so enchanting, charming and aesthetic

Sometimes it's ugly and truthful. For the most part music is about reaching people's hearts. Some hearts are reached by the ugly and truthful. Some are reached by enchantment, charm and aesthetic. Some are reached by gaudy pop, some by hip hop.

Is music ultimately useless?

It's as useful as anything else in this world. If you're looking for enlightening tools, then look no further than your own mind.

It makes no sense to point out certain things as "useless". Where do you think you'll find enlightenment? Under a rock? In a song? On a plate? Everything in this world is "useless" in the sense you're talking about.

Music is a way of communicating, and can be used to transmit a certain way of thinking. If you listen to classical music, you'll most likely take on some of the traits of the composers. If you listen to rock, you'll take on some character traits from that. So if an enlightened person makes some music, there may be a small bit of the enlightened way of thinking which affects one of their listeners.

This isn't "useful" though, since most of the time you can't answer questions in a song. You can only say so much, and you can't communicate truths which generally need to be heard in order to become enlightened. Some of these things are hard to learn, and it takes someone with great clarity to say it over many years in most cases.

MKFaizi

Post by MKFaizi » Tue Feb 28, 2006 1:07 pm

Music has some interest but not much in the way of philosophy. Music has been discussed extensively here. Many of us like it and indulge in it in various ways.

It's kind of like chocolate.

I like Tupac Shakur, Jimi Hendrix, Steve Vai, Frank Zappa, Leonard Cohen, Nuzrat Ali Khan, Led Zeppelin, Bach, Stravinsky, Louis Armstrong, Trace Atkins, Ralph Stanley, Janis Joplin, Wynnona Judd, Tom Jones, the Kinks, the Yardbirds -- many others.

What do you like? It's all candy.

Faizi

User avatar
Pottovski
Posts: 7
Joined: Mon Feb 27, 2006 10:38 pm
Location: Europe
Contact:

Post by Pottovski » Tue Feb 28, 2006 11:20 pm

Maybe that's why King's X called one their albums "Earcandy"..
They knew it already ;-)
Life is a mystery to be lived.

User avatar
Diebert van Rhijn
Posts: 6469
Joined: Fri Jun 03, 2005 4:43 pm

Post by Diebert van Rhijn » Tue Feb 28, 2006 11:33 pm

Music, like so many other things, has the possibility of causing a change in the state of mind of the listener. Like strong chocolate does. Like drugs do, depending on dose and type, though music is less forceful. Like mediation can do. Even the weather does it to some.

Enlightenment is not a state of mind but the mind is engaged nevertheless during its journey. The basics of your mind have to be understood and its various states and tricks.

It's tempting to say that everything is already music, just like one could say everything is already a drug in some way or another. Just like ones whole life can become one great meditation, the whole of existence can become a musical composition.

Can you dig that?

Sapius
Posts: 1619
Joined: Mon Sep 17, 2001 4:59 pm

Post by Sapius » Wed Mar 01, 2006 3:02 am

Can you dig that?
Absolutely, Diebert.

User avatar
Ryan Rudolph
Posts: 2490
Joined: Sun Jan 29, 2006 10:32 am
Location: British Columbia, Canada

Post by Ryan Rudolph » Wed Mar 01, 2006 3:13 am

Music is for mortals! Hahahahah mortals, you’re all a bunch of stinking infidels. I am superior to the world…. Cory Patrick frowns at the prostitute and points to his head. The prostitute sports the latest ipod, with 50 cent: candy shop playing in the background.

The prostitute falls into a pit of despair…. Cory Patrick sadistically smiles…. To be continued….(suspenseful music plays)….

LooF
Posts: 145
Joined: Tue Aug 09, 2005 4:43 am

Post by LooF » Wed Mar 01, 2006 3:46 am

people like music in much a same way as they like to read books or watch a movie

it tells some kind of a story

User avatar
Cory Duchesne
Posts: 2320
Joined: Thu Feb 02, 2006 10:35 am
Location: Canada
Contact:

Post by Cory Duchesne » Wed Mar 01, 2006 4:50 am

Sschaula wrote,
Feminine things aren't hindrances to enlightenment, stupidity is.
Sschaula,

I’m assuming that A) you are aware that this message board was put together by people who see femininity has a hindrance to enlightenment and that you are one of the few genius forum rebels, B) You are, for some inexplicable reason, ‘not’ aware that the makers of this form are opposed to femininity, or C) you are aware that this forum is put together in the spirit of anti-femininity, but the positive intellectual stimulation you get from this form outweighs your dislike for anti-femininity sentiments. Ah – or D) I am ignorant of something that you may or may not bring to my attention.

I don’t think the phenomenon of stupidity is as simple and tidy as the idea you have of it in your head. Answer me this: does one have to be clever to be enlightened? Just because a person is not very clever, doesn’t mean that they can’t become enlightened. What would be one of the main causes preventing a not very clever person from becoming enlightened? Stupidity is not a cause it is an effect. What is the cause of stupidity? Attachment to femininity maybe? I know it’s not that simple. But it certainly isn’t as simple as you put it.


Sschaula wrote
Sometimes it's ugly and truthful.
Ugly songs I know of -- - truthful songs? I’m not so familiar with those. What song(s) are you referring to?
For the most part music is about reaching people's hearts.
What song(s), artists reach peoples hearts? What is this heart you speak of? Do you mean, some songs influence people to be more sympathetic?
Some hearts are reached by the ugly and truthful. Some are reached by enchantment, charm and aesthetic. Some are reached by gaudy pop, some by hip hop.
I don’t see music as being any different than drugs. Drugs are made to reach people hearts. Some hearts are reached by alcohol, some by marijuana, some by lsd, some by cocaine, some by ecstasy, some by heroin.

Sschaula wrote:
Music is just as useful as anything else in this world. If you're looking for enlightening tools, then look no further than your own mind.
Ah, that is glib and sloppy reasoning. Is everything equally useful? It depends on what you value. If I value truth, health, and vitality -- -then obviously health food is going to be more useful than junk food. Meditation will be more useful then a book. Having my own garden will be more useful than having to go to a super market. Living outside the city will be more useful than being stuck in concrete jungle. A book will be more useful than a gambling machine. It sounds like you subscribe to the ‘it’s all good’ philosophy. Or “everything is relative” philosophy. Everything is not ok. There is absolute truth.

however, it is also important to consider the worthlessnss of any one isolated thing. Or better, one isolated thing cannot exist. Only in relationship is something made useful. It is the relationship between things that make things useful. A nail is useless unless it is paired with a hammer. Both a hammer and nail are useless if they are isolated and limited to themselves. They must be in relationship to wood, a purpose, carpenter etc…….ultimately, that which is isolated, is useless.

Sschaula wrote:
It makes no sense to point out certain things as "useless".


If you admit that it’s important to have a sense of value and importance, than it does make sense to make distinctions between useful and useless.

It all depends on our values. If we value wisdom, health, freedom, enlightenment (and to make things more complicated we are each going to have notions of what these words mean, probably for most of us, our notions for these grandiose terms are immature, naïve, glib and mirage-like) If I value enlightenment, tranquility, inner quietness – then a rock concert is useless, as is drugs, the pleasures of woman, gambling machines, Christmas celebration, etc….
Where do you think you'll find enlightenment? Under a rock? In a song? On a plate? Everything in this world is "useless" in the sense you're talking about.


No, you are making hasty assumptions.
Music is a way of communicating, and can be used to transmit a certain way of thinking. If you listen to classical music, you'll most likely take on some of the traits of the composers.
Yes, that is a very superficial sort of change. One goes from one superficial titillated emotional state of mind to another.


If you listen to rock, you'll take on some character traits from that.
Yes, unfortunately.
So if an enlightened person makes some music, there may be a small bit of the enlightened way of thinking which affects one of their listeners.
If I get influenced by Small bits of enlightened thinking - -that doesn’t make me enlightened, on the contrary, I remain fundamentally the same. The influence of an enlightened person conditions my mind with a new pattern, while inwardly, I remain the same. If there is to be profound change of being, it is hardly due to external influences at all. It comes from the individuals own initiative, and inner passion. This inner spark has no cause.


You can only say so much, and you can't communicate truths which generally need to be heard in order to become enlightened. Some of these things are hard to learn, and it takes someone with great clarity to say it over many years in most cases.
lingistical conditioning propagated from external forces do not change human beings. Human beings are born with temperaments that are already determined. There are wise temperaments and foolish ones. There is nothing a human being can do to cause wisdom. The initiative to be wise is born from within, not molded and engendered from external forces.

Just look at what happens after a wise person dies. they build a shrine and religion in his name, and soon everyone is fighting. the wise man never really changed anything. Not even himself. what caused him to be wise? No cause. I am not saying the wise man didnt have an exceptional initiative, habits, and passion.........but what caused those?

User avatar
Cory Duchesne
Posts: 2320
Joined: Thu Feb 02, 2006 10:35 am
Location: Canada
Contact:

Post by Cory Duchesne » Wed Mar 01, 2006 9:05 am

Faizi
What do you like? It's all candy.
Yes, maybe it is all Candy, but some music is more mature than other music. Some music is very sexual, raunchy, violent, vulgar, mean-spirited, while other artist have at least tried to dwell upon the possiblity of using music to expose and improve upon the human condition........I'm not saying it works.....

Some stuff that I've liked over the past 5 years....

Almost everything by John Frusciante and Bob Dylan. The Chameleons, Joy division, k-OS, Nirvana, REM, Hendrix, Melvins, The raincoats, Red Hot Chilli Peppers, The strokes, the Stills, Modest Mouse, Vincent Gallo, Leonard Cohen, Interpol, King Crimson....

I've been downloading a lot of classical music lately - - I've been trying to find music by Arnold Schönberg, 'cause I hear he is one of the greatest to have ever composed -but his stuff is hard to find.

Anyway, eventually I would like to let go of it all. Renouncing the aesthetic life (in terms of pursuing and repeating comforting/exciting aesthetics) makes sense to me. I think its probably the only thing that will free me from the grind of anxiety, fear, depression, hatred, all that shit that is in most of us.

My self must end, and music seems to keep my self alive.

The egotistical desire to be a successful musican of course has probably also been a strong motivating factor in my quest to discover and write new music.

The desire to sedate oneself with whatever comforts(Art and women) combined with the desire for power, superiority, pleasure, freedom, success -- is really what it all comes down to.

And there are typical ways to go about achieving those things, and there are more innovative.

both ways usually lead to misery.

Philosophy and Gardening are what I feel most confident about

User avatar
sschaula
Posts: 1317
Joined: Fri Nov 18, 2005 3:16 am
Location: USA
Contact:

Post by sschaula » Wed Mar 01, 2006 11:28 am

I’m assuming that A) you are aware that this message board was put together by people who see femininity has a hindrance to enlightenment and that you are one of the few genius forum rebels,

I am aware, but I'm not a rebel, so A isn't the case.

B) You are, for some inexplicable reason, ‘not’ aware that the makers of this form are opposed to femininity, or

B is untrue.

C) you are aware that this forum is put together in the spirit of anti-femininity, but the positive intellectual stimulation you get from this form outweighs your dislike for anti-femininity sentiments.

I don't dislike the philosophical anti-femininity sentiments here, so C doesn't apply to me.


Ah – or D) I am ignorant of something that you may or may not bring to my attention.

This may be the case. I was saying that if music is a feminine thing, then it isn't a hindrance to enlightenment...only the seeker's own stupidity is.

I don’t think the phenomenon of stupidity is as simple and tidy as the idea you have of it in your head. Answer me this: does one have to be clever to be enlightened?

I don't know exactly what you mean by clever. I looked up the definition on dictionary.com and found the most appropriate definition: "mentally quick and original; bright." There are a few types of mental quickness. One type is the ability to come up with humorous things on the spot...someone who is witty. No, I don't think you have to be witty to become enlightened. Another type of mental quickness is having a passion for finding the truth of things. A person who "hits the books" when it comes to something they don't know, and learns as if their life depended on it. I do think that most seekers should have this type of mental quickness. The next word they use is "original". I don't think you have to come up with original thoughts, but if it means the ability (not the desire) to stray outside of conventional thought...then yes, most of the time that's a good thing for someone seeking enlightenment. If someone can't think on their own two feet then they will fail on the path...for however long it takes for them to finally stand. The last term in the definition of clever is "bright". I do think you have to be somewhat bright to become enlightened. If you're "dim", you are (according to dictionary.com) "Lacking sharpness or clarity of understanding or perception." One definitely needs clarity of understanding in order to become enlightened. Another definition of "dim" is "lacking keenness or vigor". Both of which I believe a person would need to become enlightened. Keenness and vigor can also be found on dictionary.com, but I think if I continue typing out definitions this could get very boring very quickly.

Stupidity is not a cause it is an effect. What is the cause of stupidity? Attachment to femininity maybe? I know it’s not that simple. But it certainly isn’t as simple as you put it.

I put it simply, and what I said is true...but you're right that it isn't that simple. I guess my little saying was worth ten million words.

You are wrong that stupidity is not a cause. It's both a cause and effect, as everything in this world is. The cause of one person's stupidity is reality. There's not a single thing you can point to and say "THAT MADE YOU STUPID"...no that is just not the case...as you said, it isn't that simple. Everything in existence has caused that person's stupidity. It's horribly complicated!

Ugly songs I know of -- - truthful songs? I’m not so familiar with those. What song(s) are you referring to?

Actually, you may be right. I can't think of any fully truthful songs. I can think of a few songs which have small truths in them, which I think is a good thing. Since I'm a guitarist and singer, I should create a song that's completely true. I bet everyone would disregard it.

What song(s), artists reach peoples hearts? What is this heart you speak of? Do you mean, some songs influence people to be more sympathetic?

"Reaches your heart" means that you can find something in it which makes you feel emotions...kind of like a soft drug. Feeling an emotion can make you actually feel physical things, like as if your chest is caving in if you feel "love" or something. Also, if a person can relate to a song, like a song about breaking up after they've just gone through a breakup with someone, it will "touch their heart" because they feel a connection between the songwriter and themselves. There are songs about loneliness, and lonely people listen and feel...loneliness...but that is what "touching their heart" is about in my words.

I don’t see music as being any different than drugs. Drugs are made to reach people hearts. Some hearts are reached by alcohol, some by marijuana, some by lsd, some by cocaine, some by ecstasy, some by heroin.

I don't see music as being different from food, or grass on the ground, or the air I breathe....yet I do, since it is sound and food is something I taste and see and feel. It nourishes my body. Grass is kind of like food but it doesn't taste as good to me. The air sometimes tastes weird, sometimes smells weird, sometimes I can feel it when it's windy out, and I can see it when it's cold. So that's how music is different from these things, yet I still see it as the same.

I think your point was that music makes people feel different, as drugs do...and that music is for stupid people. I think you're mostly right.

Ah, that is glib and sloppy reasoning. Is everything equally useful? It depends on what you value. If I value truth, health, and vitality -- -then obviously health food is going to be more useful than junk food. Meditation will be more useful then a book. Having my own garden will be more useful than having to go to a super market. Living outside the city will be more useful than being stuck in concrete jungle. A book will be more useful than a gambling machine. It sounds like you subscribe to the ‘it’s all good’ philosophy. Or “everything is relative” philosophy. Everything is not ok. There is absolute truth.

There's absolutely absolute truth...and you're right everything is not ok...to me. I value health, and truth, and happiness, and family and friends, etc. I value what I value. Yet truth is ruthless, and it doesn't care about your garden or your philosophical books. The truth will build cities all over your countryside and destroy your peaceful little cottages. The truth will destroy your health and vitality, and it'll ruin you, as well as myself with my laptop and physical fitness and split pea soup.

Everything is equally useful to truth. Have you not become what you value?

however, it is also important to consider the worthlessnss of any one isolated thing. Or better, one isolated thing cannot exist. Only in relationship is something made useful. It is the relationship between things that make things useful. A nail is useless unless it is paired with a hammer. Both a hammer and nail are useless if they are isolated and limited to themselves. They must be in relationship to wood, a purpose, carpenter etc…….ultimately, that which is isolated, is useless.

Interesting.

If you admit that it’s important to have a sense of value and importance, than it does make sense to make distinctions between useful and useless.

It's important for seekers to value truth, so that they can stop seeking and become enlightened. If seekers valued nothing, then they'd just be unenlightened people and it'd negate the use of being called a seeker.

It all depends on our values. If we value wisdom, health, freedom, enlightenment (and to make things more complicated we are each going to have notions of what these words mean, probably for most of us, our notions for these grandiose terms are immature, naïve, glib and mirage-like) If I value enlightenment, tranquility, inner quietness – then a rock concert is useless, as is drugs, the pleasures of woman, gambling machines, Christmas celebration, etc…

If I value wisdom and inner quietness, I'm not going to avoid something where I can maintain my wisdom and inner quietness, such as a rock concert. The things you should avoid are the things which make you forget about the truth. For me, experiencing different things constantly makes me think of how it relates to reality. I constantly think of truth. I constantly try to challenge myself, and I think going to a rock concert and thinking of truth and maintaining tranquility and inner quietness is a challenge. I joined the army and deepened my wisdom. Maybe I'm backwards. For someone who doesn't constantly think of truth, I suppose avoiding those things would be a good idea.

Yes, that is a very superficial sort of change. One goes from one superficial titillated emotional state of mind to another.

Ehh, kind of. Emotional states of mind are necessary for enlightenment. If someone never experienced emotion, there'd probably be no reason for a person to begin valuing truth and enlightenment.

If you listen to rock, you'll take on some character traits from that.


Yes, unfortunately.


Why is that unfortunate? It could give a person the aggression needed to think. If someone just listened to jazz music their whole life they may not be aggressive enough, and they may be too "cool", for example.

If I get influenced by Small bits of enlightened thinking - -that doesn’t make me enlightened, on the contrary, I remain fundamentally the same. The influence of an enlightened person conditions my mind with a new pattern, while inwardly, I remain the same. If there is to be profound change of being, it is hardly due to external influences at all. It comes from the individuals own initiative, and inner passion. This inner spark has no cause.

There is no individual's initiative and inner passion. Those things come about through external forces, such as reading stories about passionate people and people who took initiative. Childrens books do great things to young minds...shaping them and changing them for the rest of their lives. If you get influenced by an enlightened person, you'll take on a small bit of the characteristics they have. Yes you'll be unenlightened, but you'll be that much more ready for enlightenment. You'll take on their passion and initiative.

lingistical conditioning propagated from external forces do not change human beings. Human beings are born with temperaments that are already determined. There are wise temperaments and foolish ones. There is nothing a human being can do to cause wisdom. The initiative to be wise is born from within, not molded and engendered from external forces.

Sounds like magic! Wisdom just APPEARS! Everything within is molded and engendered from external forces, in my opinion.

Just look at what happens after a wise person dies. they build a shrine and religion in his name, and soon everyone is fighting. the wise man never really changed anything. Not even himself. what caused him to be wise? No cause. I am not saying the wise man didnt have an exceptional initiative, habits, and passion.........but what caused those?

No cause? You don't sound very wise, yourself. Everything is caused. What caused his initiative habits and passion was the universe.

It's kind of strange how wise men tend to always leave trails of feces in the form of followers. All I can say about that is that they didn't communicate simply enough for the unenlightened to understand.

User avatar
sschaula
Posts: 1317
Joined: Fri Nov 18, 2005 3:16 am
Location: USA
Contact:

Post by sschaula » Wed Mar 01, 2006 11:29 am

On a side note, lately I've only been listening to talk radio.

User avatar
Blair
Posts: 1527
Joined: Wed Jul 13, 2005 2:47 pm

Post by Blair » Wed Mar 01, 2006 1:31 pm

Scott's a moron, he isn't worth 2 cents of attention.

outofthebox
Posts: 22
Joined: Wed Mar 01, 2006 4:31 pm

Post by outofthebox » Wed Mar 01, 2006 5:49 pm

I taught myself how to play saxophone. It's been a twenty year journey so far. Nothing has frustrated me more than music.
I try to create my own tunes, one note at a time. My eyes have teared up many many times out of frustration.
Once, out of frustration, I took a sharpie and wrote all the scales on the wall of my living room and sat there night after night just looking at them. People would come to visit me and the first thing they asked was why i had music notes written in magic marker all over my walls. I looked at them for about a year until I painted over them. Didn't learn a dam thing.

User avatar
Cory Duchesne
Posts: 2320
Joined: Thu Feb 02, 2006 10:35 am
Location: Canada
Contact:

Post by Cory Duchesne » Thu Mar 02, 2006 5:56 am

Sschala wrote:
I was saying that if music is a feminine thing, then it isn't a hindrance to enlightenment...only the seeker's own stupidity is.

I do see what you mean. It would definitely be stupid for a person to ‘blame’ their lack of enlightenment on a particular thing (femininity, music, parents, society, etc..). However, ‘blaming’ things, and pointing out the harmfulness of things are two different matters altogether. If I am walking in the woods with a person who is very knowledgeable of the area, and he suddenly warns that the bushes ahead are poison ivy and that if my legs brush against the ivy then my ability to enjoy the walk will be greatly diminished - - -that is entirely reasonable.

And I suppose it is my ignorance that causes me to rub up against the Ivy.

And to be a real pain in the ass, I would like to make a distinction between stupidity and 'ignorance/not knowing'.

If I end up rubbing up against poison ivy for the first time and suffer for it - - that is not stupidity - - I just didn’t know any better – and I will (If I am normal) avoid the poison ivy next time around. Now, if somebody clearly shows me that poison ivy causes painful rashes, or if I’ve experienced it myself, yet I still do it anyway - well then, there is a certain abnormality operating.

However, A better example of irrationality is cigarette addiction. If you ask 7-8 year olds these days if they think taking up smoking is a good idea, most of them (if they are raised in a somewhat educated environment) will say no. They have been told that smoking is addictive and unhealthy and they are perceptive enough to see some adults in their lives struggle with it.

However, by the time these same kids are 14-15, many of them are smoking. So one is tempted to say, they are ‘stupid’ But I think you have to look at it a little more closely, with more subtlety. You see, I think true stupidity is actually very rare, it is a rare abnormality - - a genetic disorder perhaps.

I think humanity merely ‘appears’ stupid. I think the real factor is ‘cowardice’. I know some pretty clever people who are just so mediocre and smug. Some of the most clever people I know are, in important matters, exceptionally stupid and are elaborate weavers of their own demise. To resolve this paradox, I say that their actions are crippled by fear. It’s not that humanity is stupid. There’s something else. There is a certain emotional maturity that is lacking. I think cowardice is a better word. Stupidity and cowardice seem to go together well. I’ve met some pretty ‘slow’ people in my life - - -they are usually more capable of being wise and broad minded if given the chance.

But usually slow people become victims to the cowardice, cunning and greed of the clever.

You are wrong that stupidity is not a cause. It's both a cause and effect, as everything in this world is.
Yes I agree. The cause ‘is’ the effect. But I chose to say that stupidity is more of an effect than a cause in order to get at something else, namely, fear. (I am now sure that I could have found a better way).


There is a documentary called ‘stupidity’. The film tries to understand what stupidity is, and they end up dissecting culture in an attempt to define it. They had a very difficult time. The film seemed to reveal that A) humans get excited by external stimulation. B) The natural external world is not very exciting compared to the invented world, especially when you become accustomed the stimulation produced by human inventiveness. C) Humans tend to invent things that titillate their own senses in unprecedented ways. D) Humans like to manipulate their senses in order to constantly maintain inner momentum, inner activity, inner conflict D) Our senses are more easily excited by sex, violence, extreme flavors, powerful aggressive sounds, images of great power, a certain exaggerated symmetry in face and body, flashy, bright, stimulating colors, cruelty, than they are by a calm lake, quietness, mountains, animals, walking in the woods, natural food, etc…..

Perhaps stupidity might best be explained by saying: The human being seems to be tangled in aesthetic sensations, and he/she is frightened of losing them as well as frightened of not pursuing more and more of these sensations (which are amplifying and giving strength to the fear).
I can't think of any fully truthful songs. I can think of a few songs which have small truths in them, which I think is a good thing. Since I'm a guitarist and singer, I should create a song that's completely true. I bet everyone would disregard it.
Could you drop some song titles? Not because I want to analyze you and judge you - - -but because I’m a music junky (I’ll quit later, just a few more years). Especially singer-songwriter songs. But I enjoy a good instrumental if it is melancholy enough. And hey, if you write your own stuff - -- are your songs on the web? You could send me one or two maybe?
"Reaches your heart" means that you can find something in it which makes you feel emotions...kind of like a soft drug.
Yes, songs definitely appease pain. Some songs make you feel more powerful, or make you feel connected to power, or maybe justify and encourage your desire to pursue a sensation, or a form of power. Danzig, The doors, break on through, 5 to 1, 50cent, Ever heard of Nice Cave (murder ballads?) Or one of eminem’s more resentful, spiteful tunes? (something about putting anthrax on one’s tampax?) Some songs titillate your most base emotions and desires. I remember when eminem’s 8 mile movie came out - - so many guys I knew were suddenly enthusiastic about becoming famous rappers.
Then there are the more divine singer songwriters:
I can remember when I first heard Bob Dylan’s ‘Don’t think twice its alright’, or ‘It aint me babe’ - - I loved those songs. Every girl I would get involved with, I would give her a burnt CD that included those songs, among other songs with unconventional attitudes. And of course, this made the girls become more intrigued and attracted to me (most girls like it when you act like you don’t need them, yet absurdly will get on your case for not making them feel like you need them!) the relationships never lasted of course, mainly ‘cause there was nothing there between us to begin with besides physical attraction and wishful thinking.
Most woman, in my experience, want to admire you for qualities that are not worth trying to have. They want to be decieved. Men too of course. But this is not so much the case with me these days.
When I found those Bob Dylan songs, my desire to live without clinging to a particular woman (or trying to be something special to a woman) was supported. But I was arrogant and ended up very isolated and hard to live with. ‘It seems’ that art, music has helped me superficially-- -but a lot of the base emotions have remained unchanged - - there is just a more independent individualistic conditioning – and thus perhaps more misery.
Feeling an emotion can make you actually feel physical things, like as if your chest is caving in if you feel "love" or something.
I am reluctant to explain that sensation away with the word 'love'. It’s been since elementary and junior high since I felt sensations like that…although one of these days a woman could really hit me hard…..but I doubt it, I’m too cynical for that…….…. I'm not sure I understand that sensation you mentioned, although I recognize it….…..I'm very reluctant to emphasize 'nouns' like heart and love and am eager to do away with them when trying to explain things. ....but I know the sensation that you’re talking about. The girls that I liked most when I was younger did produce that sort of sensation - - almost like your falling apart and getting weak - melting almost. Maybe that’s why I’ve never been with a girl I really felt like that about! The girls that loved me were people I never really was all that crazy about. Maybe that’s why they loved me: because I never really loved them (in that chest caving sense). And maybe that’s why I loved those other girls so much - - -because they never really loved me. Who knows. My romantic life feels very much over.
I think one starts to feel very weak (chest caving in) when one feels as if ones sense of being 'ok' is threatened combined with power evolutionary/biological drives to reproduce. The opposite sex can do that if they are sufficiently well-endowed with those typically attractive features that exclude runny nose, pimples, bad hair cut, crooked teath, etc..... Usually one falls in love with an image of superiority and order (thus amplifying your desire to become apart of something that seems superior) rather than falling in love with the nerd with thick glasses and pimples. One tends to fall in love with he or she who has better genes, better looks, better intelligence, more wealth......the person you ‘love’ (in the context that you seem to be using it in) makes you feel weak and helpless. For that reason, marriage perhaps ‘usually’ occurs between people who are not incredibly overwhelmed with each other. Otherwise, there is too much instability.
I’m Just Intuitively riffing here........not like I strongly believe what I just said......just my suspicions.
Also, if a person can relate to a song, like a song about breaking up after they've just gone through a breakup with someone, it will "touch their heart" because they feel a connection between the songwriter and themselves. There are songs about loneliness, and lonely people listen and feel...loneliness...but that is what "touching their heart" is about in my words.

(at the risk of sounding cheesy) when I hear a good song about breaking up, I wonder if my old partner has listened to or is listening to the same song and having similar thoughts as me - - this always brings about a weird ecstasy. Don’t know if anyone has had a similar experience – probably somewhat common.
Since its been so long since I had a girlfriend - -I don’t have those sorts of experiences. My ecstasies have different sources now - I'm wondering if ecstasy is something that only occurs in a being that is caught between vulgarity and true enlightenment.
I think your point was that music makes people feel different, as drugs do...and that music is for stupid people. I think you're mostly right.
Yes, that’s the angle that I was playing - -but mainly because I am a musician, I write songs, and am constantly trying to find new music. I am incredibly self critical, mainly because I want to be a step ahead of everybody. Nobody knows how bad I am like I do! If somebody says something bad about me, I want to say: oh yeah? Well you forgot to mention, this, that, this, and the other thing…..so……there you go. I want invincibility.
Everything is equally useful to truth. Have you not become what you value?
Yes, I have become what I value ----- and thus I don’t value everything - - I value nothingness which is uncontaminated 'causeless' energy. I have become nothing.
And therefore, a great deal of ‘something’s’ are useless to me. Cigarettes, gambling, pornography, hunting, junk food, dancing, valentines day, Easter, Christmas, marriage, most people, etc….
I don’t want to be caught in the vicious cycle of cause and effect.
It's important for seekers to value truth, so that they can stop seeking and become enlightened. If seekers valued nothing, then they'd just be unenlightened people and it'd negate the use of being called a seeker.
I think it's important to make a distinction between seeking and ‘investigation/experimentation/exploration’. When you’re exploring/investigating/experimenting (E.I.E) you don’t know what you are looking for, you are simply exploring for the sake of exploring.
Ones discoveries then are very unpredictable. When you are E.I.E, you are simply not resisting the discontent you feel about your limited conditions. Conditioning should rightfully be continually challenged. Seeking on the other hand, implies that you know what you are looking for. Seekers only find what they want to find, and therefore are quite silly people. Most scientists have claimed that when they have made a discovery it was always very incongruous and had always occurred to them when they finally gave up trying to find a particular answer. Probably because the answer they were seeking for was the answer that would finally end all questions. Instead they ended up with a discovery that begot more questions then they originally started with.
Seekers don’t value truth. If they valued truth then they wouldn’t seek. You see, people say they are seeking truth, but really, they are trying to escape it. People stop seeking and become enlightened when they realize the futility of their search, the futility of their desires. Truth is where you are, and what you are, and what you are is the quality of your relationship to the world. Truth is energy, relationship, health, vitality, nothingness. All of which elude those who seek. Seeking is a way of filtering out what you don’t want in order to achieve what you want. What one ‘generally’ wants is a state of being that doesn’t exist.
If I value wisdom and inner quietness, I'm not going to avoid something where I can maintain my wisdom and inner quietness, such as a rock concert.
Well, in my experience, rock concerts aren’t exactly something you have to go out of your way to 'avoid' - - just something that one need not ‘pursue’.
The things you should avoid are the things which make you forget about the truth.
You make truth sound as if it’s a thought, concept, etc… It is not. It is a living thing, a state of creation, a new-ness from moment to moment. It is attentiveness, rather than a bundle of memories, beliefs and concepts. It is subtle details that only insight can discern rather than the gross manifestations that thought gropes onto blindly like a child clings to the mother. However, I realize we are limited to words, sentences and a lack of actual contact…..so, I don’t mean to be picky, I realize you probably understand as well or better than I do, just different use of language. You probably haven’t the time or lack of social life to write as excessively as I am. However, I’m doing my best to take things to an interesting place
For me, experiencing different things constantly makes me think of how it relates to reality. I constantly think of truth. I constantly try to challenge myself, and I think going to a rock concert and thinking of truth and maintaining tranquility and inner quietness is a challenge. I joined the army and deepened my wisdom. Maybe I'm backwards. For someone who doesn't constantly think of truth, I suppose avoiding those things would be a good idea.
I’m not judging that you can't be truthful and full of insight while being in the army and going to rock concerts.
However, it is probably not wise to assume that those who don’t go to rock concerts or join the army are ‘avoiding’ those particular experiences. ‘Not pursing or desiring particular experiences’ is probably a better way to put it. And if one wants to ‘constantly be of truth’, then not pursing and desiring any particular experiences would probably be equally if not more wise, rich and insightful than your preference to experience the army or a rock concert. I am not saying one should not discriminate. However, I am saying that one need not pursue experiences and instead just deal with what you have no choice to deal with, using discretion and intelligence in the present moment.
Emotional states of mind are necessary for enlightenment. If someone never experienced emotion, there'd probably be no reason for a person to begin valuing truth and enlightenment.
Yes, but these emotional states of mind are probably equally as easy, or easier to come across without the distraction of music. Neither of us can prove it, so we’re going to just have to go with whatever POV it is we are determined to go with.
If you listen to rock, you'll take on some character traits from that.
Yes, unfortunately.
Why is that unfortunate? It could give a person the aggression needed to think. If someone just listened to jazz music their whole life they may not be aggressive enough, and they may be too "cool", for example.
What you’re saying is just speculation/theorizing (probably you deem a great deal of what I have said is speculation/theorizing as well, So, in light of fairness, I’ll try to go along with you.
Perhaps If you indulged in a great deal of jazz and ‘coolness’ then maybe you’ll need to balance your self out with more aggressive music (sometimes it takes a thorn to take out a thorn -- -one may have to battle extremes with extremes) However, I think the human being will function more harmoniously and harmlessly if he or she is spared of all the superfluous stimulation that has been churned out needlessly by humanities insatiable and futile craving to manipulate their senses and create meaning and values based on what has basically become a preference to be titillated.
There is no individual's initiative and inner passion. Those things come about through external forces, such as reading stories about passionate people and people who took initiative.
There is an infinite reservoir of energy within all that you can observe, and within all that you can’t observe.
Children’s books do great things to young minds...shaping them and changing them for the rest of their lives.

I do agree that external conditioning is important –however, there are dispositions that are already determined by genetics and simply by the heavily ingrained tendencies of consciousness AND external conditionings as well. You may attribute genetics to external conditioning, however, there are constituents and subtler energies underlying genetics…..and those of course have underlying constituents, add infinitum. But I agree, conditioning children’s minds with intelligent stories and conversation is very important.
If you get influenced by an enlightened person, you'll take on a small bit of the characteristics they have. Yes you'll be unenlightened, but you'll be that much more ready for enlightenment. You'll take on their passion and initiative.
No, I think that passion and initiative already exist to begin with, and will operate with more intelligence, efficiency and focus following ones absorption of logic and language exercises.
linguistic conditionings propagated from external forces do not ‘fundamentally’ change human beings is what I should have said in the last post.
Cory wrote:
The initiative to be wise is born from within, not molded and engendered from external forces.
Sschaula replied:
Sounds like magic! Wisdom just APPEARS! Everything within is molded and engendered from external forces, in my opinion.
Everything external is molded and engendered by internal forces, in my opinion.
However, ultimately, Opinions are always false.
The fact is: There is only one ‘uncaused’ whole. There really is no inner or outer. Such a division is an illusion established out of a desire for convenience of communication. There is only one whole that has no cause. Call it magic or whatever you want, but if you refute this, then you are actually refuting David Quinn who agreed with me on this issue.
Therefore that would make you a genius forum rebel. (Which is fine with me, it is admirable! but the first step is admitting it)
No cause? You don't sound very wise, yourself. Everything is caused. What caused his initiative, habits and passion was the universe.
Everything, the whole body, has no cause. The universe as a whole, ‘is’ initiative, patterns, passion, creativity. When you become enlightened, you become the whole. You become uncaused. The universe, the whole, ‘is’ consciousness uncaused. You become that consciousness, which is not subject to time, cause and effect, etc..
This is where Quinn, Solway and the rest of you will probably disagree with me. Perhaps you are all frightened of reality. You see, if I’m going to indulge in speculative theories and mere opinions like the rest of you, then I might as well take the more amusing route of being at odds with what most people in this forum prefer to think. Quinn would probably reply: only to be at loss for truth!
It's kind of strange how wise men tend to always leave trails of feces in the form of followers. All I can say about that is that they didn't communicate simply enough for the unenlightened to understand.

True Understanding is not born from external influences. The superficial understanding of cause and effect is important in order to help ‘keep you’ (and/or help ‘get you’) out of the mess created by a cause and effect, manipulative mentality -- - However, true, profound understanding, simply is. It is not of time (cause and effect, birth and death).

MKFaizi

Post by MKFaizi » Thu Mar 02, 2006 1:41 pm

What is the difference from this thread to the threads on the Brothel?

I have no objection to this being on Genius but, given the quality of posts in both places, why separate?

Faizi

User avatar
Jason
Posts: 1312
Joined: Thu Jul 28, 2005 1:02 am

Post by Jason » Thu Mar 02, 2006 2:23 pm

MKFaizi wrote:What is the difference from this thread to the threads on the Brothel?

I have no objection to this being on Genius but, given the quality of posts in both places, why separate?

Faizi
Maybe this thread should be kicked into the brothel. Genius forum may be lacking in some areas, but I think the aim and purpose of it is completely valid. The freedom of this place, which is one of its great strengths, also means it can be abused. A lot of posts here may fail to reach the level desired of the genius forum, but that only shows lacking in the posts, not lacking in the ideals and intent of the genius forum.

There is still a considerable amount of discussion here which fulfills the goals of the genius forum. I think there should at least be an attempt made to seperate the dross from the worthwhile, and I think the genius forum does succeed in doing that to some degree. It's not perfect, but it's better than nothing.
Last edited by Jason on Thu Mar 02, 2006 4:08 pm, edited 3 times in total.

User avatar
sschaula
Posts: 1317
Joined: Fri Nov 18, 2005 3:16 am
Location: USA
Contact:

Post by sschaula » Thu Mar 02, 2006 2:39 pm

Have we been abusing this side of the forums? I would think that prince's boring little posts are abuse of the freedom, but I've been honestly sharing here. I think I can add to the enlightening atmosphere here. Am I wrong?

User avatar
Jamesh
Posts: 1526
Joined: Fri Jul 22, 2005 3:44 pm

Post by Jamesh » Thu Mar 02, 2006 2:59 pm

Music is a two pronged thingie

One side of it appeals to emotions and the other side appeals to the infinite that is within us.

I personally love the emotional side (lyrics and music together), but at a more basic level I also like being lost in the sound itself - slide guitar or viloin sounds for instance or (for some) classical music. The latter is a non-visual representation of the flow of time and matter - it appeals to the awe-like emotions, the same awe-like emotions that some people have in relation to god, but in my case it is the sound of the the changes in things within the universe over time.

outofthebox
Posts: 22
Joined: Wed Mar 01, 2006 4:31 pm

Post by outofthebox » Thu Mar 02, 2006 3:07 pm

A final "note" from me pursuant to this topic.
I always get a kick out of street performing. I like to make a few extra bucks playing on the street during high profile events.

When people tell me "that was so beautiful" after I blow a Kenny G tune. I'm always humbled.

When they tell me I'm soooo talented after I play a tune made up from riffs I borrow from other people. I feel ashamed, like I just got away with plagarism.

Once, I went to the gym to work out after a day playing on the street and took my sax in the gym with me because I was on my bike. a girl turned down some "demonic sounding music" on the gyms boombox and asked me to play something for her.
When i was through she said it was beautiful,fantastic and wonderful.

Some tone deaf clown that was the playing the demonic screaming tunes said "are you done now" in a real snotty way.
It made me realize that music is alot like beauty. It's in the eye of the beholder.

Either way, I just can't tell you how wondeful it feels when you're playing on the street and someone comes up and puts a ten spot in your case and tells you you're wonderful. thats not why i do it- I actually do it for the cash- but the rewards of performing music for people can be great when they look you in the eye and pay you a compliment. I usually make 100 bucks an hour when I play. At the end of the day I always feel better about the compliments than I do about the money. Maybe thats really why i play, I truly don't know.

User avatar
Kevin Solway
Posts: 2766
Joined: Mon Sep 17, 2001 8:43 am
Location: Australia
Contact:

Post by Kevin Solway » Thu Mar 02, 2006 3:52 pm

outofthebox wrote:At the end of the day I always feel better about the compliments than I do about the money. Maybe thats really why i play, I truly don't know.
Performers generally do so for the attention and approval.
Marsha wrote:What is the difference from this thread to the threads on the Brothel?


From the initial post, it could have been interesting, but it has gone down a fairly mundane path. I'll think about moving it.

outofthebox
Posts: 22
Joined: Wed Mar 01, 2006 4:31 pm

Post by outofthebox » Thu Mar 02, 2006 4:16 pm

Attention and approval take a back seat to getting paid.

I know players who won't play unless you pay them. even at a birthday party or a backyard bar b que. Standard reply being, "you don't work for nothing, why should I."

Attention and approval come with the deal. Some are motivated to pick up an instrument for the celebrity thing, some for the love of music, some for unknown reasons.

I like the money, attention, and approval. When I go on Vacation to the beach I play and make money to recoup my expenses. And hopefully I get a beauty and a compliment to boot.

User avatar
Blair
Posts: 1527
Joined: Wed Jul 13, 2005 2:47 pm

Post by Blair » Fri Mar 03, 2006 1:24 pm

sschaula wrote:Have we been abusing this side of the forums? I would think that prince's boring little posts are abuse of the freedom, but I've been honestly sharing here. I think I can add to the enlightening atmosphere here. Am I wrong?
Am I abusing the freedom of this board by stating you are a moron, in my opinion?

I am adding to the enlightening atmosphere by stating as such, as I see it.

User avatar
sschaula
Posts: 1317
Joined: Fri Nov 18, 2005 3:16 am
Location: USA
Contact:

Post by sschaula » Fri Mar 03, 2006 2:34 pm

Yep, I think calling someone a moron with no reasoning behind it is abuse of a philosophy forum. I do think people should be called morons though, if they are. It does add to the enlightening atmosphere.

...so, your reasoning?

User avatar
sschaula
Posts: 1317
Joined: Fri Nov 18, 2005 3:16 am
Location: USA
Contact:

Post by sschaula » Fri Mar 03, 2006 2:42 pm

Cory, I will respond once I have enough time which will probably be on Friday or else Monday.

Post Reply