Barack Obama, next president of the U.S.?

[Alex Jacob]

Good. Now take those sentiments and try to understand that Israelis and Jews who support Israel---because they have 'lived it, ringside'---believe the things they believe about their own existence, as Jews, and as a nation. If it is something you lived, 'ringside', it is something you define and control.

We're making progress, Shah!

And why ever would you think that I want to 'hurt' you? My sadism has very defined limits, or perhaps we can agree that my sadism is constrained by my exalted ethical standards?

I swoop down from on high and sprinkle everyone with angel-dust, and in that way participate in your self-development, in the glorious emergence from pupa to fully-formed butterfly. When I'm done Heaven only knows where you'll fly to! (Where is Carl BTW?)

That is Alex Jacob's mission!

[Leyla Shen]

Speak of psychosis and look who pops in!

Leyla, the unfuckable Turkish thorn-patch.

Ah, yes—of course. The ultimate litmus test for sanity. Is one or is one not "fuckable."

Yes, Diebert presented this argument in the fellow who was interviewed by Ha'aretz. And, like our prolific Leyla his core preparation seems to be a strain of Marxian materialism. But it is not, exclusively, mere bodies that determine who is and who is not a Jew, it is ideas.

We have indeed been over this before, and I am not convinced that there isn’t some genetic cause for your ignorance, especially since anyone can convert to Judaism.

The single idea put forth against the one from you to which I responded in my last post is precisely about more than just bodies and no less than ideas. You seriously think you have demonstrated otherwise?

Typically, however, the simple reality of the situation is swept under the rug. Do you, Alex the Seal, not see this?

Let me remind you of what is on the table here, in reality:

A: Jews possessed Israel and forces act to push them out of Israel, but they held to the idea of its possession and never waivered, and through a long, long arc of strange history, willed a return to that land. I don't think there is anything comparable in any other record of human history, and again, it is a unique, Jewish attainment. It will never be relinquished.

L: Except there's no link between those that have "returned" to that land and the one's exiled from it more direct than the link between the exiled and the ones the "returned" are pushing out of it, you stupid fucking Jew!

Your reasoning is flawed. You must necessarily define what it means to be Jewish in order to have a unified movement. And, you (plural) have, as internally contradictory as it is. And you WILL work on it and have worked on it, because people like me say so. Every nation needs trade by necessity of its very existence; that is reality. Israel is a mess. And there are reasons for this which extend beyond "it's everyone else's fault."

We have already been through all this Leyla! There is no doubt in my mind that there are problems and inconsistencies in these Jewish ideas about 'being Jewish'. In the end, though, we decide, not you.

Of course, everyone decides what trash they make up—and they bear the consequences. This is a foregone conclusion and, as such, irrelevant, ignorant emotional bluster. You think I give a fuck about what you (singular and plural) decide in the light of what I decide? Hardly. My reasoning isn’t based on groupthink, and remains unattended to in kind. So, yeah, make a relevant point.

It starts and it ends there. The arguments you would concoct are only for yourselves, they have nothing to do with us. It's not as though you are going to create converts among us with ideas whose sole purpose is to undermine our platform. You see this, don't you?

Of course I do. And even in this you are wrong again. My reasoning and decisions end when I say they do. Why would anyone expect to convert a Jew into an individual who can provide a reasonable response to a reasonable proposition without recourse to an unresolved, invented history about—that is, without being able to see in reality—who he really is so much so that he can do nothing but ponder the question even as he lives and breathes? And you call me psychotic!

Get a fucking brain!

[Leyla Shen]

After months of nothing, you are inspired to contribute this incredible contribution:

Who fucking cares!

Who asked you to? Fuck off.

[Alex Jacob]

Cada uno lleva encima la marca de su tiempo
cada uno lleva encima la huella de su sueño

Quién dijo que la risa de tanta alma joven tiene que emigrar?
o que la llamarada de los sueños nobles ya no alumbra más?
quién dijo que nos ganó el olvido? que nos venció el "jamás"?
quien dice que hay caminos imposibles de encontrar?

Quién dice que perdimos, si entre las angustias sigue Panamá?
Quién cree que no hay manera de dar a su historia un mejor final?
Sigamos respirando, también por los demás,
porque la causa es buena, no me canso de tratar.

Quién dijo que la vida se puede apuntalar
a fuerza de mentiras, removiendo heridas,
y olvidando amar?
Cómo borrar distancias sin echarnos a andar?
Por qué asumir que el Norte esta en el Sur y delirar?

Yo soy de donde nace la Rosa de los Vientos;
la azota el vendaval pero crece por dentro!

---La Rosa de los Vientos
_______________________________________________________

Ruben Blades for Obama

[Shahrazad]

Very nice song.

[Diebert van Rhijn]

Criticisms of Israeli policy are completely valid, except when they hinge into the right of Israel to exist!

This is where you're wrong, my fiend, as well as remarkably uninformed and lacking subtlety.

You see, one of the main problems with Israeli policy is the insistence on some form of singular Israeli state! There's only a minority of Jews who actually care for this, although most also don't care to oppose much. The two state solution, while having been popular for a few decades, being a tempting win-win scenario, doesn't turn out to be viable and the situation is only deteriorating. So with Jews and Gentiles alike, inside and outside Israel, the belief in this solution is quickly faltering even while it doesn't hit mainstream yet. There's a lot to overcome here. But there are more and more intellectual, influential, Jewish voices rising also inside Israel which are suggesting a single state with the Palestinians is unavoidable on the longer term for simple economical, geographical and ethical reasons.

So it doesn't make sense to talk about a "right to exist" [as what exactly?] while the borders and definitions of the policy making body (an Israeli state) are still under such dispute and are hardly carried by the majority of the religious-ethnic group(s) called 'Jews'. Current Israel is the product of Zionist beliefs, a reli-nationalist movement stemming from the same age as lots of other failed ideas: third-reichism, eugenics and communism to name a few. And most of the supporters have their own set of religious or political reasons to support the current solution 'to the end' and have no interest in searching for a more truthful, more objective point of view.

Anyway Alex, you won't be the first over-confident Jew that has to be taught a few things about his own beliefs and geography. Always with a lot of effort and patience but perhaps we're getting somewhere!

[Alex Jacob]

There are 3-4 people involved in this 'conversation', Diebert, and you should recognize that each loco requires almost a different treatment.

The State of Israel, as an existent entity, is not questioned, though any number of other details are contended. There are many different sectors of opinion within Israel, as I said in reference to the variety of ideas and opinions in one single issue of Ha'aretz. But what is not in question is Jewish self-determination in defining identity, as well as the shape a future state, dual-state, or single state, may take. The other thing that is not in question is general Israeli security, and a safe haven for Jews.

A conversation about these things could, I'm sure, take place, but only among those who do not place the word Jew within quotation marks, as you do. That would be called a dialogue in 'good faith'. But when the whole 'conversation' is immersed in 'bad faith', it is and will always be a bullshit conversation. In a genuine conversation on the subject, with me, with an Israeli or any identified Jew, you could get somewhere, and all the different parts of the equation could be put on the table. But, with your 'ilk' what is required is defensiveness, like in some game of chess with mortal possibilities.

As to some of the other comments you made, some of your ideas about Judaism and Christianity, though I certainly see what you are referring to when you speak of 'psychosis' and the 'hallucination' of religion(s)---and with this stance I am in a certain sympathy, at least some understanding---I personally feel that the religious experience, the religious revelation, is something that one has always to rise to, and to seek ways to embody it will clarity, intelligence and commitment. There most certainly does exist a deranged element, that cannot be denied. But there is also a faction of great men who take religious ideas and ideals to the very heights, and from that position present to people how these ideas and ideals can elevate and exalt. All the best in literature and philosophy, not to mention art and even medicine, has come into existence because of a response to the message of religious revelation. Even some of those who rise against religion and the very idea of God seem to gain their power from the very source they combat.

[Tomas]

.

Hi kiddies,

Since this thread was started by Samadhi, and he's no longer with us (thanks, Ryan) - I'll be starting a different thread about the life and times of Obama.

You Israel-talkers can have this thread.

Ta-ta


Tomas


.

[Iolaus]

Alex,

I don't write here, and I don't exist intellectually, to seek anyone's approval. The goal of thinking, of even coming into association with ideas, is to make one's own choices after examining ideas, after allowing ideas to work on you. No one here, and not you, as much as I may respect and like you, stands as a judge over my ethical assessments, and I find it arrogant that you would even include this sort of wording. Are you my ethical preceptor?

Oh, pooh. Of course you will make up your own mind, but you do not exist in a vacuum. If you do not respond to the objections of others then you are a law unto yourself, and by extension, you say it is alright for Israel to be a law unto itself. Of course, isn't that what we did with the American Indians, and any number of other wrongs in history? If Israel is to be a law unto itself, then it shouldn't be surprised that anger is generated.

"...and I agree that there is that unique quality of the Jews, whether it is a good or defensible thing is something else again."

Could you ever imagine such a statement being formulated in regard to any other people? Do you have an idea how this fits into the old discussions of 'the Jewish question'?

Of course I can! All peoples have their faults and come under criticism. In this case, I had mentioned long ago some comments that didn't seem to interest you about the odd Jewish identity, which is tribal, and which is almost always lost upon entry into that thing called civilization. And I am not saying it is a fault, probably it is even a compliment. At the time, I urged yoo to look at Daniel Quinn's work, Ishmael. It is a very important book.

When I say it may not even be defensible, I am actually referring to conspiracy theory. And yes, I adhere to much consipiracy ideas. Not only that, but I believe, and I had told you this also with the same lack of response, that the ancient world was visited by aliens who are the source of the god myths, the early kingdoms and civilization itself. The Jews and their history and their Bible are deeply embedded in it. Unfortunately, Jehovah was a more destructive influence than some of the others, and in my opinion the Jews have been badly damaged and traumatized by this influence, although it is a deep undercurrent to all of the west, less so the east. It is a forgotten trauma, a lost subconscious psychic memory, that no one wants to examine. I long for humanity to be free of it, for Islam, Judaism and Christianity to free themselves of it. But to do so, people will have to admit they have been duped, that they could not discern where they were being given truth and where falsity, and that their religious scriptures are not pure. It isn't that I don't find the maintenance of identity laudable, but I question the influences that have led to it.

I suggest to you, Anna, that you examine some of your own core assumptions, that you look into the fabric of what is informing your notions about Jews.

But my point seems to have gone right past you. Are you able to examine the possibility that I don't have deep and strange notions of Jews, but that I disagree with what they are doing? Do you have a way to handle criticism that does not pull the antisemitic card?

You---and this is a current theme and is not your own formulation---set up the 'argument' so that you win it from the outset. This is a ridiculous rhetorical question. The issue is much more complex than this, and I refer you again to the page of condensed points that refer to different views of history. Again, you set yourself up as judge and with this high-sounding tone present me with a little ethical test. It is like something out of the Merchant of Venice, isn't it?

Humanity is able to invent complexity, and while that complexity is sometimes real (sometimes not) we must also look at things simply. It is not a rhetorical or ridiculous question. Your dismissal of a simple question is worrisome. The Jewish position that there is only one answer: the occupatation of Israel, and just in that exact time and way, is a problem. I read your post of condensed points, I think, but I do not know what link you refer to.

This is a very arrogant statement. An ethics has to take place on a real platform, not in an ideal or abstracted zone. To enter into and try to decide very complex ethical problems is anything but easy, and so in a modern age, with power struggles that take place on the ground (meaning, in reality) the practice of ethics is made infinitely more difficult.

In other words, it is a lot tougher to walk the talk, than to talk the talk.
True.

Criticism of Israel has to be very carefully disentangled from a prevalent and very basic anti-Semitism, but there is nothing at all wrong with criticism of Israeli policies in se. But it has to take place in a context that is precisely equal to all other sorts of conversations about other, existing polities.

We do have differing prejudices and dislikes about different people, but they are also loosely based on experience. How come we say that blacks really love music and don't say it about the Chinese? And all peoples, really, do behave rather badly here and there. Could there be persistent behaviors of Jews which in fact annoy and rightly so, other people? Of course, this is a good argument for Jews having their own country, and not always living inside of others. Another reason for antisemitism is the poison of religious exclusivity, which infects Christianity and Islam, but which microbe comes from the Old Testament, from Jehovah, that bastard of all bastards.

How terrible that people cling to the very thing which hurts them.

The worst thing ever, from the perspective of those who have this 'view', is simply that Jews exist....Criticisms of Israeli policy are completely valid, except when they hinge into the right of Israel to exist!

But how can Jews complain about the behavior of others, and then claim that they have a the right to do the same thing? Such as saying that the only thing Palestinians have of use to do is leave? Is that not a wish for them not to exist? It is true that some other countries were populated via occupation, such as the US at least partly so. But not all. And it is a terrible shame. The more time goes by, the more difficult to rectify. We cannot rectify the great wrong of stealing people from Africa by returning them there now. Yet it is precisely the case that Israel has no right to exist. They did a wrong. But you are confused about the right of the Jewish people to exist. To say they should not have occupied the land of Israel is not to say Jews should die. And you mentioned security. The Jews have anything but, and they have dragged down the safety and security of the whole world with them.
If all the Jews wanted was their own country, they had ample opportunity for that when the New World was discovered. But they want the land of Israel, yet those who founded it and pushed for it were in general not religious, were even atheistic.

Your anti-Semitism is your own issue, your own pathology, and is for you to confront, or not, as you see fit.

I don't think I am antisemitic at all. I do believe there are evil people running our world with nefarious purposes, and that Jews have been high up in the hierarchy of it, and that they planned WWII, largely for the purpose of creating the state of Israel, and that the vast majority of Jews have fallen for it. But it doesn't seem to be only Jews; they may even be scapegoats. Regardless of that, the great majority of regular Jewish people are innocent of wrongdoing, and I find them more honest and trustworthy and fun and smart than your average Christian or southerner. In any business dealing, I'd rather deal with a Jew than anyone else. And that's not because I get any special treatment. No one detects I am half Jewish unless I tell them.

You, to me, are a peculiar case because of your own Jewish background,

I would say that a person I know is easily one of the most kind, honest and above board people I have had the honor to meet. He is an atheist and he worships the state of Israel. I don't use that word lightly. He worships the state of Israel, and he worships the Jewish people. There is the religious impulse, you see, and it demands an object. He thinks he is capable of criticizing his people, but it isn't true. They can do no real wrong. And I fear, from some of the things he has said, that if he had the power, he might actually wipe out all Arabs and moslems. So you see that for him at least, it is a recipe for moral disaster.
It would all be simpler, of course, if the Arabs and moslems were less crazy themselves.

You are not an inferior version of Victor. He lacks soul. Although I like him!

But you see, this present 'conversation' has nothing to do with truth or reality as it pertains to Jews or Israel (does anyone here think that it does? I mean really!) This conversation about Jews, here, serves a whole other purpose. You do know that, right Anna?

No.

[Alex Jacob]

I'm sorry Tomas that this topic has shifted to this particular 'discussion', but you could look at it that since Obama is now president-elect the topic has served its purpose. What we were discussing (Ataraxia is the culprit) was, I thought, the sort of connection that the US has with Israel, and why it has it.

Anna, this is the page I mentioned.

One of the people who worked on this 'defense' (the above web-page) was Jeff Helmreich who wrote the screenplay for Blood and Tears: The Israeli-Arab Conflict (2007) (Part 3 is hard to find, but if you go to part 5 then to 4, 3 then appears).

I will get back to you later and try to answer more of what you wrote. Yahway an Alien Space Captain? You heard it first on the Genius Forum, folks! Next, Shah will come forward with revelations that Omar Torrijos was nothing more than a hologram projected by the Cubans...
_______________________________________

Chomsky Debates 'Israel Lobby' Theory
Chomsky/Dershowitz

[Tomas]

.



-Alex Jacob-
I'm sorry Tomas that this topic has shifted to this particular 'discussion',

-tomas-
There are 17 other threads (on Genius & Worldly) where the topic veered off to Israel, Jewish, Muslim, Arab etc...




-Alex-
but you could look at it that since Obama is now president-elect

-tomas-
Yeah well, he still needs to produce the vault copy of his birth certificate. Perhaps he was lied-to by his parents (or whoever). Any way one looks at this mess, it appears he was not "native-born". My understanding is that the people who were present at his birth in Mombassa, said he didn't look like Barack Sr. So, she (and Barack -aka- Frank Davis's son) boarded a flight to Hawaii and filed a piece of paper with Hawaii officials. (He was lied to by those supposedly, closest to him) He may not even qualify to be US Senator, oath-of-allegiance at age-18 -- due to that he was "adopted" -- by an Indonesian man. Barack became Barry, complete with a name change. Comes back to Hawaii, raised by gramps and grandma, and Frank Marshall Davis, his genetic father... and at age-18, didn't take oath-of-allegiance etc..

What it boils down to .. if you want to 'toss the Constitution' out with the trash, this will be the defining moment.

When one votes for (lets say) city mayor - do you really want people from another city voting for the mayor of your community? Fun and games aside, is there rule of law?




-Alex-
the topic has served its purpose.

-tomas-
Yes, the F-bomb is the rule of the day.




-Alex-
What we were discussing (Ataraxia is the culprit) was, I thought, the sort of connection that the US has with Israel, and why it has it.

-tomas-
I'm not telling anyone here to start a thread about "Israel" or whatever title it manifests itself into, but whoever wants to start one and 'put their name to it'- please do so!

Why? Then all these other threads that may have a similarity to "middle east intrigues" can be kept from spinning off (and declining) into 'fawk you' name-calling by all you Ivy Leaguers and "urbane" worldly (well-educated) city-slickers who know whats best for the people who come here to put in their two-cents' on other topics...

Yes yes, the above was written by a high school dropout who attained a GED .. got some college in from a few unpronounceable backwoods places you .. first-class fare .. would never know about .. but I still take a course every year (at some local community college) as a "professional student" because time hasn't passed me by.

In conclusion: Your worldly false-messiah has arrived. When his thugs come for you just remember he has been before .. in Iran, Germany, China, Russia, Cuba, Yugoslavia, Venezuela, Argentina, and now the United States (as they wear whatever you want them to look like).

The law of unintended consequences .. be careful what you ask for

The F-bomb has destroyed many-a-civility thread here..

Guess Kelly Jones was/is correct, Genius is comatose :-(



Peace Up,


Tomas



7


Edited for incoherent sentence..

.

[Diebert van Rhijn]

...those who do not place the word Jew within quotation marks, as you do.

There are a couple of very good, non-antisemitic reasons to use the quotation marks at times, like I did. It can be hardly disputed that the term 'Jew' is in itself a remarkably vague and multi-faceted term. Issues of ancestry, religious stand, politics are interwoven with this self-identification. One can be a Jew of choice, a Jew because of traditional culture one is raised in, or a Jew because of claimed lineage with one of the twelve tribes of Abraham. That someone can make the personal choice to identify with this or not, doesn't effect any discussion revolving real consequences this has for politics, negotiations or rights to materialize this identity.

Really, if all you can do is commenting on punctuations and their possible dismissive meaning, you can join the 'Jews' that remarked this was the wrong thread to write or who try to inform everyone on the irrelevance of the topic. A topic which is of course just a crucial as the topic of Woman, her image and how she is held in reverence by a significant group that shapes society. The similarity is that it's not about actual women or Jews, it's about how they are regarded and how their actions, their myths and influences are totally mistaken.

[brokenhead]

Why? Then all these other threads that may have a similarity to "middle east intrigues" can be kept from spinning off (and declining) into 'fawk you' name-calling by all you Ivy Leaguers and "urbane" worldly (well-educated) city-slickers who know whats best for the people who come here to put in their two-cents' on other topics...

No one lowers the level of dialog at GF on a a more regular basis than you do, Tomas. And didn't you say you have kids who are Ivy-Leaguers? Your inferiority complex just keeps on showing up time and time again. It's the content of one's ideas, not where one has matriculated, that makes one "urbane."

For example:

In conclusion: Your worldly false-messiah has arrived. When his thugs come for you just remember he has been before .. in Iran, Germany, China, Russia, Cuba, Yugoslavia, Venezuela, Argentina, (they wear whatever you want them to look like).

This definitely does not come from a so-called "city-slicker." You are comparing Obama to Hitler, Stalin, Castro, Mao... Which means you are not able to distinguish among these people. They were all dictators, but had more differences than similarities. And Obama is not even in office yet, and you revile him. Just remember, Stalin, for example, was nobody's "messiah."

Your little warning sounds like sour grapes. I can sympathize. Palin has better gams than Biden. CNN could have been easier to look at for the next four years.

[Alex Jacob]

Tomas wrote:

"Yes yes, the above was written by a high school dropout who attained a GED .. got some college in from a few unpronounceable backwoods places you .. first-class fare .. would never know about .. but I still take a course every year (at some local community college) as a "professional student" because time hasn't passed me by."

I dropped out of High School, but got accepted to a pretty good college on the basis of my zealousness. High School, college/university are by NO MEANS the only way to get an education, and then who in the end gets to define what IS a good education? The distinguishing activity is reading, in my opinion: to get involved in the one defining activity of humans, our language. For the technical things, I suppose, a formal education is essential, but not to be involved in ideas.

I think you should keep posting on this thread whatever you feel is relevant, and I am sure this particular spat will move on, and maybe reconnect with the Obama stuff.

Your ideas about Obama being the anti-Christ and such might combine nicely with the Space Invador slash God-of-the-Hebrews, so I'd try to weave it all together...

;-)

[Shahrazad]

broken,

Palin has better gams than Biden. CNN could have been easier to look at for the next four years.

This just shows you like women more than you like men. I happen to think Biden is much sexier than Palin.

[brokenhead]

broken,

Palin has better gams than Biden. CNN could have been easier to look at for the next four years.

This just shows you like women more than you like men. I happen to think Biden is much sexier than Palin.

He got the hair plugs before refined the procedure.

What are we talking about Biden for, when his running mate is the rock star?

[Steven Coyle]

Just having some fun, Leyla.

[Ataraxia]

Go out today and thank a Jew, Diebert! Or better yet, invite one home for dinner.

No need, we're obviously all Jews now. We're all in the Great Conspiracy together! If only the Zionists would see it too, they could end their make-believe project in Palestine. And those dabbling with literal Judaism could become atheists!

As to the reasons why Emanuel dropped the dual citizenship, it seems likely it was so to be able to pursue politics, doesn't it?

It doesn't seem to be a requirement at all in the United States! There appears to be some screening when there's a security clearance involved but the dual citizenship itself is not a show stopper.

Also, being a Jew would give automatic citizenship of Israel, when so desired, so there's nothing to ' give up' really, apart from an active participation in the military or policy making organizations.

In my view Israel and the United States have quite a few diametrically opposing interests on the geopolitical stage. Therefore the amount of Jews and dual-citizenship Israelis involved at the core of the US government should be a matter of concern for people interested in worldly affairs.

Right on, Diebert.Pack of Straussian inspired lunatics,the lot of them.

Now watch the Kristols go and join the Democrats,their work in the GOP is done.

[Alex Jacob]

Anna writes:

"If you do not respond to the objections of others then you are a law unto yourself, and by extension, you say it is alright for Israel to be a law unto itself."

In the 'defense' I posted, you can see that Israelis often object to the singular sort of criticism they receive. Please read it and locate that part, I don't have the energy to write it out. You comments above are filled with your own prejudices and conclusions, and you accept them as totally true. But there is another side to the story, and you don't seem to be aware of it. I suggest that if you knew that fuller picture, your general treatment of Israel would be different.

"And yes, I adhere to much conspiracy ideas. Not only that, but I believe, and I had told you this also with the same lack of response, that the ancient world was visited by aliens who are the source of the god myths, the early kingdoms and civilization itself. The Jews and their history and their Bible are deeply embedded in it. Unfortunately, Jehovah was a more destructive influence than some of the others, and in my opinion the Jews have been badly damaged and traumatized by this influence, although it is a deep undercurrent to all of the west, less so the east. It is a forgotten trauma, a lost subconscious psychic memory, that no one wants to examine. I long for humanity to be free of it, for Islam, Judaism and Christianity to free themselves of it. But to do so, people will have to admit they have been duped, that they could not discern where they were being given truth and where falsity, and that their religious scriptures are not pure. It isn't that I don't find the maintenance of identity laudable, but I question the influences that have led to it."

This is a very strange idea to respond to in a serious way. On the one hand, the way that this Yahweh is portrayed, he is a little like a Space-God from afar, and even the notion of God is so tied to an elaborate metaphysic that you could, as you seem to have done, replace 'him' with a strange Lizard God from another galaxy. How though could anyone actually respond to this idea? How could it ever be discussed? One could describe 'Yahweh' as a God of the desert who traveled on the winds, a sort of forbidding and terrible spirit, but I just don't know what to think about the Deep Space theory. He obviously would have had to have touched down and scooped up some New World Indian lasses around the same time, and maybe shared a cup of Chocolate with Montezuma, so I sort of see where it is going...

Why doesn't he just pop in again and set the record straight? Where is he now? I was going to build an Alien Attractor Beacon from a mail-order kit, is this recommended? Has Yahweh learned anything or is he the same asshole as always?

We're back at the same impasse when discussing the Old Testament.

"Are you able to examine the possibility that I don't have deep and strange notions of Jews, but that I disagree with what they are doing? Do you have a way to handle criticism that does not pull the antisemitic card?"

What, you say their God is a Martian Invader and you expect me to think you have no strange ideas about the Jews?? Did this Captain Nemo of Alpha Centauri happen to sell fabric? Is that why so many of his spiritual progeny were tailors?

"We do have differing prejudices and dislikes about different people, but they are also loosely based on experience. How come we say that blacks really love music and don't say it about the Chinese? And all peoples, really, do behave rather badly here and there. Could there be persistent behaviors of Jews which in fact annoy and rightly so, other people? Of course, this is a good argument for Jews having their own country, and not always living inside of others. Another reason for antisemitism is the poison of religious exclusivity, which infects Christianity and Islam, but which microbe comes from the Old Testament, from Jehovah, that bastard of all bastards."

If you ever get around to researching anti-Semitism, you will see that arises from other roots than mere disdain of grating characteristics. Your theory about Yahweh is actually, I suggest to you, an expression of this core paranoia, a Medieval paranoia. Your Evil Space-God is just another version of Satan, or a Lizard Civilization that has taken over the planet. I also suggest that your conspiracy ideas MUST also hinge into the same mishegoss.

"But how can Jews complain about the behavior of others, and then claim that they have a the right to do the same thing? Such as saying that the only thing Palestinians have of use to do is leave? Is that not a wish for them not to exist? It is true that some other countries were populated via occupation, such as the US at least partly so. But not all. And it is a terrible shame. The more time goes by, the more difficult to rectify. We cannot rectify the great wrong of stealing people from Africa by returning them there now. Yet it is precisely the case that Israel has no right to exist. They did a wrong. But you are confused about the right of the Jewish people to exist. To say they should not have occupied the land of Israel is not to say Jews should die. And you mentioned security. The Jews have anything but, and they have dragged down the safety and security of the whole world with them. If all the Jews wanted was their own country, they had ample opportunity for that when the New World was discovered. But they want the land of Israel, yet those who founded it and pushed for it were in general not religious, were even atheistic."

You have internalized one tendentious narrative about Jews and Israel. There is another narrative that I think you need to become aware of. The view that you have internalized is tempting and seductive, but it is riddled with lies and distortions. And yet you accept it as an absolute truth without, it seems examining its structure.

"I don't think I am antisemitic at all. I do believe there are evil people running our world with nefarious purposes, and that Jews have been high up in the hierarchy of it, and that they planned WWII, largely for the purpose of creating the state of Israel, and that the vast majority of Jews have fallen for it. But it doesn't seem to be only Jews; they may even be scapegoats. Regardless of that, the great majority of regular Jewish people are innocent of wrongdoing, and I find them more honest and trustworthy and fun and smart than your average Christian or southerner. In any business dealing, I'd rather deal with a Jew than anyone else. And that's not because I get any special treatment. No one detects I am half Jewish unless I tell them."

You mean unless you show up in the 50s outer space costume with the laser gun and the Gefilte Fish hors d'oeuvres, don't you? It's a dead givaway...

*Sigh* I think I'm going to sell the shop and head back to that other star...

PS: I do have a collection of stories called Wandering Stars which is an anthology of Jewish science fiction. It is pretty funny.

[Ataraxia]

Alex,would it kill you to use the forum's quote function.I know you like being a maverick,and all that,but it's bloody tedious sometimes trying to work out who said what.

[Leyla Shen]

Just having some fun, Leyla.

Oh, well, in that case, I'm sure you were happy to be obliged—good for you, darlin'...

[Leyla Shen]

To Tomas, the intellectual retard who thinks he has something of value to contribute:

If it's still not clear what relationship there is between Israel and the US, viz Obama, let me elaborate further on a point of foreign policy.

If Obama decides to make good his promise to the Armenian lobby (who have taken their cue from the Israel lobby), you are looking at a Turkish alliance with the Middle East, your troops will be kicked out, and Turkey, in the final analysis, will have Russia, as well.

Do the maths. Oh, sorry. Forgot. You fucking-well can't!

[Leyla Shen]

PS: you're such a fucking blowhard, it's hard to believe it possible.

[Tomas]

.


-tomas earlier rant-
"Yes yes, the above was written by a high school dropout who attained a GED .. got some college in from a few unpronounceable backwoods places you .. first-class fare .. would never know about .. but I still take a course every year (at some local community college) as a "professional student" because time hasn't passed me by."

-Alex-
I dropped out of High School, but got accepted to a pretty good college on the basis of my zealousness. High School, college/university are by NO MEANS the only way to get an education, and then who in the end gets to define what IS a good education? The distinguishing activity is reading, in my opinion: to get involved in the one defining activity of humans, our language. For the technical things, I suppose, a formal education is essential, but not to be involved in ideas.

-tomas-
The VietNam draft got in my way. No college deferments by the time they got around to me, wife, kids doesn't count. I had no connections to get out of the morass. It was the military or Fort Leavenworth Federal Military Prison.




-Alex-
I think you should keep posting on this thread whatever you feel is relevant, and I am sure this particular spat will move on, and maybe reconnect with the Obama stuff.

-tomas-
No, I've been around here long enough to know the hungry pit bulls who never get enough of "Israel" topic.




-Alex-
Your ideas about Obama being the anti-Christ and such might combine nicely with the Space Invador slash God-of-the-Hebrews, so I'd try to weave it all together... ;-)

-tomas-
I stated a 'false-messiah' style/complex he appears to exhibit. He's a Leo, you know.

The Hebrews travels are an interesting "story".

In conclusion, keep up your good talking here, you're better at English. I may interject as the spirit moves as my opinion seems to be in great demand in these parts.


.

[Leyla Shen]

[laughs! excellent piece of background music…]

Weyl, gosh darn it, Billy-Bob, if we ain’t a-witnessin’ ‘nother marriage made in heevin jus’ lahk that there filim ‘bout the ogre and the fairy tayal preencess!

Wautch them there crows, sonny!