representing the duality of the human mind

[baulz owt]

I've been intensely lonely like Fried Nietzsche, so to get back some of my friends I told to "get fucked" when I--thought--I had reached enlightenment I told them I was just kidding and was merely being the artist I am and representing the duality of human thought in my social persona.

[Shahrazad]

Did it work?

[baulz owt]

yes! I've learned most people will buy w/e BS I can muster to pretty much justify anything I do

[baulz owt]

Can anyone help me get to the bottom? I had the sense of total nihilism a few months ago and I cannnot describe other than to say it helped me see everything so clearly even if but for a few hours. Now I can't regain that feeling, I can only recite to myself "nothing's real, etc" but it doesn't help me transcend.

[Dan Rowden]

Well, for a start, it's not true that "nothing's real". Nihilism is false as well. It's really just a momentary absence of consciousness.

[baulz owt]

no, it's true. there is no meaning

[baulz owt]

also, Dan, do you believe its possible to socialize without becoming deluded by ego?

[vicdan]

Well, nihilism is not really about denying the reality of everything. It's about denying the reality of purpose and values and normatives, especially objective ones.

In this sense, nihilism is in fact pretty self-evident. of course the point is that just because there is no objective meaning and purpose, doesn't mean there is no meaning and purpose, period.

here is my personal take on it:

I believe we are free. There is no higher purpose, no absolute meaning, no cosmic justice. We only have ourselves and each other; our collective wits and strengths and will, and freedom, always and everywhere, freedom. There is no karma or final judgment, no life after death. Death is no more to be feared because we will cease, than we should fear the time before our birth when we didn't exist. We live out our years, making wise and foolish choices, sowing joy and suffering, as best as we know how -- and then we die, and there is nothing afterwards.

The Universe not only doesn't care, but to even speak about it caring or not caring is a category error. Universe simply is -- and within it, us, free to live our lives, to create and love, destroy and hate. We do not have higher meaning enveloping us, but we create our own. We can't help it -- we are, therefore we create. We exude meaning like trees exude oxygen; it is simply what we do, what we are. We are walking, talking, laughing, loving, world-bestriding generators of meaning.

And then we die.

But now, we live, and now, we are free: free to choose our future, free to embrace the existential void, lacking in any higher meaning or purpose or justice, and fill it with ourselves, our strength and will -- and also free to flee from it, to cower in its presence, whimpering for protection, filling it with our fears and weaknesses and delusions and flaws, oh, how many flaws!

I embrace my freedom. I revel in it. I am my existential void. FREEDOM, baby!!!

[baulz owt]

thank you, vicdan. How can I not deny the reality of everything when everything outside of my perception is illusory?

[baulz owt]

guess I answered my own question. thanks.

[Dan Rowden]

no, it's true. there is no meaning

Just because there's no absolute or objective meaning doesn't mean there's no meaning. Meaning is an artifact of consciousness. Where there's purposive consciousness there is meaning, by default.

[Dan Rowden]

also, Dan, do you believe its possible to socialize without becoming deluded by ego?

You mean, is it possible to socialize without it being an egotistically driven exercise? Sure, it's possible. It all depends on the reason and purpose behind the socializing.

[baulz owt]

what is purposive of consciousness? procreation?

[vicdan]

thank you, vicdan. How can I not deny the reality of everything when everything outside of my perception is illusory?

You are trapped in noumenal thinking. Same as QRS. :)

Think about this statement: "everything outside of my perception is illusory".

First of all, illusion is an artifact of perception. An illusion outside perception is an oxymoron.

Secondly, you still expect 'objective reality' to be the content of your perceptions; i.e. if you, say, perceive a tree -- leaves, barks, etc. -- you first think that there is a real tree behind the perceptions, but then you realize that this notion is, well, a phantom, a thing of fog and shadows, when taken apart from perceptions.

You are used to thinking of things as real, independently of perceptions. You have realized that this is an incoherent approach, but you still cling on to the enculturated noumenalism, desiring to believe in these things-apart-from-perceptions -- and perceiving their incoherence as a tension, a conflict. You seem to almost feel betrayed by reality, but you are instead betrayed by your expectations.

I suggest a radically different way to look at the world.

The 'tree' you think of, when you perceive the bark and the leaves, is not a thing in itself, expected to be real apart from perceptions. It's a predictive model for future perceptions. That it, the 'tree' is the collection of beliefs like "if i grab a leaf and pull, it will come off the branch"; i.e. it's an encapsulation of your predictive knowledge about the tree in question.

Stop expecting the tree-apart-from-perceptions to be real, and you will stop feeling betrayed by the incoherence of this expectation.

So the tree is real -- but what 'tree' is, is the collection of predictions, not a thing.

This is a tricky mental shift to achieve. it's almost like those faux-3D pictures, where it looks like a random swirl of colors, then you focus your eyes just right, and all of a sudden you see a picture arise. Try it.

[Dan Rowden]

what is purposive of consciousness? procreation?

It needn't be procreation. The form of consciousness we exhibit is purposive by its very nature. The action of altering the world with conscious, goal based intent - to whatever end - is purposive, and that's what consciousness does. The more conscious a person is, the more "purpose" is present. You could argue that people who lack consciousness lead rather meaningless and purposeless lives, like cows.

[baulz owt]

thank you for your helpful replies. i'm kind of frustrated because I thought I had infinite wisdom and now I don't believe in it. I suppose it could just be lack of sleep and my excessive stimulant use of late

[Dan Rowden]

I think you've been riding the crest of an altered state wave and have made much more of it than you should have. It's a common mistake.

[baulz owt]

I felt totally aware and conscious for about four days and decided a little toke wouldn't hurt and I haven't regained my consciousness since. In fact, I've spiraled back into drugs. I can't even write anymore, I'm paralyzed and incapable of thinking for myself. SUX!

[Dan Rowden]

Old and bad habits die hard, but some of them really need to be killed off.

[baulz owt]

I know and I'm trying not to be frustrated since that will fuel it but then again trying to not be something will cause more of the frustration la la la spiral out. thanks for your help. i'll return when I feel I can contribute something to myself. bye now

[Dan Rowden]

Take it easy. Don't beat yourself up over this sort of thing. Just quietly, and without any fuss, do what needs to be done. Internal drama just makes it harder.

[vicdan]

i'm kind of frustrated because I thought I had infinite wisdom and now I don't believe in it.

:D

To a large extent, what you should be doing is losing bad beliefs, rather than try to gain good ones.

It's like engineering. The design is perfected not when there's nothing to add, but when there's nothing to take away.

[brokenhead]

To a large extent, what you should be doing is losing bad beliefs, rather than try to gain good ones

I have noticed this myself, and I think it is vitally important. If you keep peeling away foolish beliefs that stick to you from your contact with the world, as well as those that arise from within, the more valid beliefs seem automatically to appear and take root.

[Animus]

Define: neumenal

And it better be nomologically consistent and not superfluous like pneumonoultramicroscropicsilicovolcanoconiosis. There better be a damn good reason for it!

;)